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German exchange student killed in Montana's Castle Doctrine case

backseatLover12backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
edited May 2014 in A Moving Train


The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Markus Kaarma has been charged with deliberate murder in the Sunday killing of Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg.

But he says Montana's self-defence law allowed him to shoot the boy.



Full story at http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27243115
Post edited by backseatLover12 on
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Comments

  • g under pg under p Posts: 18,196
    That's just another sad gun story in which there's far too many in this country. I gather we here like to shoot first then ask questions later, in between someone usually dies.

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  • elvistheking44elvistheking44 Posts: 4,409
    I like the part that says "it's unclear why the teenager was in the garage". Pretty sure it was to steal the purse they baited him with. Hmmm.....
  • backseatLover12backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    elvistheking44 said:

    I like the part that says "it's unclear why the teenager was in the garage". Pretty sure it was to steal the purse they baited him with. Hmmm.....

    Me too. Which means the whole thing was entrapment in order to use the self-defense excuse...
  • JimmyVJimmyV Posts: 19,171
    As always there are too many guns in this country. Castle doctrine or not, you should lose any such protection if you have lured someone into your home.

    Conversely, an open garage door is not an invitation. This kid had no business entering the garage. If he did not trespass he would still be alive.
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  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    JimmyV said:

    As always there are too many guns in this country. Castle doctrine or not, you should lose any such protection if you have lured someone into your home.

    Conversely, an open garage door is not an invitation. This kid had no business entering the garage. If he did not trespass he would still be alive.

    He set bait. Much like setting up an auto deer feed station and sitting in a tree and shooting a deer. Humans ... the ultimate prey.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    not saying this is the case but what if the kid saw that the purse was just sitting there and was planning to hide it so no one would take it? ... in any case - how can people support a culture that believes death is a reasonable response to break ins?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    i have less of a problem with guns being out there than i have with laws like this being on the books out there. These "stand your ground", "castle doctrine" type laws literally make the unintelligent think they can get away with murder and sometimes they are right. So sad to live in a land where a thing is equal to a life.
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  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    edited May 2014
    Montana's so-called "castle doctrine" law was amended in 2009 to allow deadly force if a homeowner "reasonably believes" an intruder is trying to harm him or her.

    I'm not sure how these idiots felt they were in danger of being harmed. This guy is a firefighter. He's supposed to have a mentality that is in the interest of preserving life.

    I don't think the kid was there for any good reasons, but what might be the case, Polaris, is a weak moment for the kid as he saw an opportunity.

    This is murder- pure and simple... but again, don't mess with people in the US. They have guns and some seem very eager to use them. You never know who you are dealing with: if a 29 year old firefighter will shoot down a teenager in their garage... it's safe to say there are others with itchy trigger fingers and less patience that would shoot you for less.
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  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    and they do. Hence my position humans can't handle the power of a gun.
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  • JimmyVJimmyV Posts: 19,171
    Jason P said:

    JimmyV said:

    As always there are too many guns in this country. Castle doctrine or not, you should lose any such protection if you have lured someone into your home.

    Conversely, an open garage door is not an invitation. This kid had no business entering the garage. If he did not trespass he would still be alive.

    He set bait. Much like setting up an auto deer feed station and sitting in a tree and shooting a deer. Humans ... the ultimate prey.
    And this kid had just about as much chance to defend himself as would a deer.

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  • Leezestarr313Leezestarr313 Posts: 14,352
    If you didn't grow up in a country that is so gun crazy, you might not even have the mind set to think that a situation like this could be that dangerous. I am German and rather new to the States and I still have knowledge and experience gaps that could potentially put me in danger. Sometimes it is hard to not get overly paranoid... I used to be enjoying city life in Germany, over here I want to be as far away from crowds and people as possible. Weird, huh.
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  • JimmyVJimmyV Posts: 19,171
    Leezestarr313 said:

    If you didn't grow up in a country that is so gun crazy, you might not even have the mind set to think that a situation like this could be that dangerous. I am German and rather new to the States and I still have knowledge and experience gaps that could potentially put me in danger. Sometimes it is hard to not get overly paranoid... I used to be enjoying city life in Germany, over here I want to be as far away from crowds and people as possible. Weird, huh.

    You might not think it could be so dangerous but at the same time would you think that strolling into someone else's garage uninvited was inappropriate and a bad idea?
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  • Leezestarr313Leezestarr313 Posts: 14,352
    edited May 2014
    I definitely think it was a bad idea. What I meant was that as a non-American you don't grow up with the thought of normal people having guns and being ready to shoot in your head. Even though the exchange organisations provide lots of info to prepare people. If he was there to steal something, he definitely knew he was doing something wrong, but maybe he didn't think that there was the possibility of being shot to death. This topic is being discussed in German newspapers as well, of course. And Germans' minds are boggled when they hear that the fellow pupils of the boy are defending the shooter. An American boy or girl maybe would not have tried to attempt something like this, knowing that there are laws like the Castle doctrine.
    Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
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  • JimmyVJimmyV Posts: 19,171
    I hear you. It is an awful story. I can't speak for all Americans but I myself am just beginning to understand laws like this even exist. I don't believe we have an equivalent law here in Massachusetts.
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  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    Sad story, and the shooter deserves some sort of jail time.

    But baited or not: why the hell was the kid (German or not, who cares) going into the garage? Being German doesn't mean you are somehow immune from making stupid decisions. I'm pretty sure in Germany there are laws against trespassing and theft.
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  • Leezestarr313Leezestarr313 Posts: 14,352
    Yeah, of course. I don't get it either. Also, if this kid was in the US as an exchange student, he was not coming from a poor family. I don't get it. Maybe it was some sort of dare game? Maybe he was just being stupid and immature? We might never know.
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  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    can we all agree tho that whatever his intention that night - that death is not a suitable consequence!?
  • Leezestarr313Leezestarr313 Posts: 14,352
    edited May 2014
    Agreed, polaris_x.

    So a homeowner is allowed to use deadly force upon an intruder if they "reasonably believe" an intruder is trying to harm him or her. Just for understanding, is "harm" further defined in that law? There is so much room for interpretation right there.
    Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
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  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Do you need a gun to over power or scare away a 17? Real manly.
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  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    A) No, you shouldn't need a gun to do either
    B) In that situation, how do you know the 17 year old doesn't have a gun?
    C) Does a 17 year old really need to go into a stranger's garage because he sees a purse left out in the open?
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  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    polaris_x said:

    can we all agree tho that whatever his intention that night - that death is not a suitable consequence!?

    Absolutely.
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    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • Leezestarr313Leezestarr313 Posts: 14,352
    BinFrog said:

    A) No, you shouldn't need a gun to do either
    B) In that situation, how do you know the 17 year old doesn't have a gun?
    C) Does a 17 year old really need to go into a stranger's garage because he sees a purse left out in the open?

    From what I read the guy went in there on the search for drinks. (No, I am not defending the intrusion of a property to take something away that is not yours) Also, I read that the shooter himself couldn't see anything because they had switched off the lights in the garage. How was the intruder supposed to see the purse there? I see the point that the intruder might have had a gun. Still, from what I understand shooting would be a means of defense when the homeowner feels threatened for their life. And even then, wouldn't you try to immobilise the intruder instead of killing them?
    And why didn't the wife call the police while they were at it?
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  • vant0037vant0037 Posts: 6,116
    This is why giving statements to police is usually unhelpful for you (you end up incriminating the shit out of yourself):

    "Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.

    On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police."

    ...and this guy's attorney is not doing his client any favors:

    "Mr Kaarma's lawyer said his client planned to plead not guilty.

    The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan.

    "We know with no question the individual entered the garage," Mr Ryan said. "Kaarma didn't know who he was, his intent or whether he was armed."

    He said that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighbourhood and Mr Kaarma did not think the police were doing anything about them."

    Sheesh. Hard to argue self-defense because you're afraid of being harmed if you admit you have no idea who the person is, what his intent was, or whether he was armed...
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  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    vant0037 said:

    This is why giving statements to police is usually unhelpful for you (you end up incriminating the shit out of yourself):

    "Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.

    On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police."

    ...and this guy's attorney is not doing his client any favors:

    "Mr Kaarma's lawyer said his client planned to plead not guilty.

    The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan.

    "We know with no question the individual entered the garage," Mr Ryan said. "Kaarma didn't know who he was, his intent or whether he was armed."

    He said that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighbourhood and Mr Kaarma did not think the police were doing anything about them."

    Sheesh. Hard to argue self-defense because you're afraid of being harmed if you admit you have no idea who the person is, what his intent was, or whether he was armed...

    In short... a moron. We're dealing with a moron.
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  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    My take...
    "Basic Rule of Thumb: No. 57" should kick in... "When in Montana (or Idaho or Wyoming) expect that everyone has a gun trained on you at all times, Therefore, do not go into places you know you should not go into... such as Montana, Idaho or Wyoming."
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    Dogs. They protect your home better than any alarm. Also, if you trespass in my house my dogs will stop you and if you cause harm to my dogs I now have the impetus I need to declare you a threat and act accordingly...I couldn't just shoot someone, but if they hurt my buddyboys I'll bet I wouldn't hesitate. It seems painfully simple to me, but then I have zero desire to put a bullet in someone and many, if not most, dream of just such a chance.
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  • backseatLover12backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    edited May 2014
    Not to mention, what happened to the art of actually speaking to said intruder before firing upon him? Because the Castle Doctrine law doesn't specify that one should?
  • backseatLover12backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    Leezestarr313 said:

    I definitely think it was a bad idea. What I meant was that as a non-American you don't grow up with the thought of normal people having guns and being ready to shoot in your head. Even though the exchange organisations provide lots of info to prepare people. If he was there to steal something, he definitely knew he was doing something wrong, but maybe he didn't think that there was the possibility of being shot to death. This topic is being discussed in German newspapers as well, of course. And Germans' minds are boggled when they hear that the fellow pupils of the boy are defending the shooter. An American boy or girl maybe would not have tried to attempt something like this, knowing that there are laws like the Castle doctrine.

    I'm sorry to hear that the classmates are defending an asshole with a gun. But not surprised. 'mericans love their killing machines! :(
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    I think that firing a shotgun blindly into a room when you don't know who or what you're shooting at - and actually putting BAIT in that room to lure a petty thief who has never threatened his personal safety before shooting blindly - is a criminal act, and this idiot ought to go to prison for a long time so that the rest of us are protected from him. He clearly thought this was a reasonable plan of action, that shooting into a room when he had no idea who was even in there was a good way to go about things, and that belief is a very real danger to society IMO. He thinks that death is a good punishment for petty theft. What the fucking fuck?

    That dumbass teenager shouldn't have been in there, but no one should be shot to death because they are sneaking into garages and taking a few things.
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  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Cosmo said:

    My take...
    "Basic Rule of Thumb: No. 57" should kick in... "When in Montana (or Idaho or Wyoming) expect that everyone has a gun trained on you at all times, Therefore, do not go into places you know you should not go into... such as Montana, Idaho or Wyoming."

    Okay... so if I'm getting this straight...

    1. Precaution number one: never go into Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    2. Precaution number two: failing precaution one... realizing you are in Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming... get the hell out of Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    3. Precaution number three: failing precaution number one or two... stay the hell away from people because they have their guns trained on you.

    Did I get this right?


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