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What form of goverment governs the US? What are we?

brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
edited October 2013 in A Moving Train
Yesterday, I posted this synopsis in another thread:

"The various forms of government can be briefly summarized as:

Monarchy or dictatorship: Rule by one (a king or emperor)
Oligarchy: Rule by a few
Democracy: Rule by a majority
Republic: Rule by law"

The way I see it we are:

Not a monarchy or dictatorship. Probably no argument there.

Not an oligarchy, at least not in theory. We have three branches of federal gov populated by more than a few members elected by the people.

Supposedly a democracy in that we are allowed to vote but sometimes that doesn't work (i.e. Al Gore).

Maybe a republic... but if we are ruled by law and the laws are written so that only a few really understand them isn't that more like an oligarchy?

So which one is the US?

Answers under 25 words will lose 10 points, answers over 500 words will be discarded and one point deducted for each grammatical and spelling error. :lol:

No, seriously, I'm curious about this. :)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,607
    governed by majority under the rule of law.

    A blend of a democratic republic. Supposed to be anyway , as I understand it.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    We are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, but it has somewhat turned into a democracy. In a democracy the majority rules which might sound like that is how it's supposed to be but in a majority rules world people suffer. In a CR the smallest minority group is protected and the rights of that group are defended. Of course the Founding Fathers intended the smallest minority group to be the individual.

    In a democracy poll numbers push policy. In a CR, the rights of the individual trump all.
  • toodeetoodee Posts: 89
    brianlux wrote:
    ...Maybe a republic... but if we are ruled by law and the laws are written so that only a few really understand them isn't that more like an oligarchy?

    From what I've seen of laws in America (via my legal base in Australia :lol: ) it seems laws (in both countries) are not written to be understood by a few, but have evolved from a combination of the judicial system and successive Governments changing laws to suit their own needs. The reason they are so complex is a side effect of these two things. So, if I have to pick one of these definitions (and avoid the easy option of combining a couple of them ;) ), I would say the US is a Republic.

    But then again, that could also make constitutional monarchies such as Australia, Canada, and the UK republics :lol: )
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    America's founders wrote the Constitution so that America would be a Republic....if we could keep it ( how can we keep it when people do not even know we are a republic)....we are a nation of law.....but amendment after amendment mostly for special interest groups and big business (laws we cannot understand) has corrupted this country....has anyone ever heard Obama call this Country a Republic? It seems people major in constitutional law just to find ways to undo the constitution....Americans now ridicule the Constitution.....Sad!
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    I don't know why this thread seems to be simply equating democracy with majority rule. Democracy is far more complicated than that--it can be majority rule if it's done wrongly, but as Alexis de Tocqueville outlined in his Democracy in America, the American constitution set principles to help prevent a "tyranny of the majority." Unfortunately though, one of the principles he lauded was the freedom of association found in the first amendment--which doesn't necessarily exist anymore, either due to legal constraints (for instance, it's illegal to affiliate one's self with a group such as Hezbollah to such a large degree that a cable man who helped hook up their television station for someone in New York was sentenced to 6 years in prison! even though he wasn't actually in the group) OR due to the idiotic mindset of Americans buying into the two party system and having to sell their soul every election to a candidate they don't really give a shit about (or are stupid enough to give a shit about--sorry to all you Obama-lovers and arrogant Republicans reading this).
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    fuck wrote:
    I don't know why this thread seems to be simply equating democracy with majority rule. Democracy is far more complicated than that--it can be majority rule if it's done wrongly, but as Alexis de Tocqueville outlined in his Democracy in America, the American constitution set principles to help prevent a "tyranny of the majority." Unfortunately though, one of the principles he lauded was the freedom of association found in the first amendment--which doesn't necessarily exist anymore, either due to legal constraints (for instance, it's illegal to affiliate one's self with a group such as Hezbollah to such a large degree that a cable man who helped hook up their television station for someone in New York was sentenced to 6 years in prison! even though he wasn't actually in the group) OR due to the idiotic mindset of Americans buying into the two party system and having to sell their soul every election to a candidate they don't really give a shit about (or are stupid enough to give a shit about--sorry to all you Obama-lovers and arrogant Republicans reading this).

    Term limits would help...
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    fuck wrote:
    I don't know why this thread seems to be simply equating democracy with majority rule. Democracy is far more complicated than that--it can be majority rule if it's done wrongly, but as Alexis de Tocqueville outlined in his Democracy in America, the American constitution set principles to help prevent a "tyranny of the majority." Unfortunately though, one of the principles he lauded was the freedom of association found in the first amendment--which doesn't necessarily exist anymore, either due to legal constraints (for instance, it's illegal to affiliate one's self with a group such as Hezbollah to such a large degree that a cable man who helped hook up their television station for someone in New York was sentenced to 6 years in prison! even though he wasn't actually in the group) OR due to the idiotic mindset of Americans buying into the two party system and having to sell their soul every election to a candidate they don't really give a shit about (or are stupid enough to give a shit about--sorry to all you Obama-lovers and arrogant Republicans reading this).

    Things are not what they seem or are said to be. (That was more or less my cryptic point.)
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    corporatocracy. 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    It's a single party authoritarian system that exists under the guise of a choice between two parties because smaller parties have "no chance of winning".
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,607
    unsung wrote:
    It's a single party authoritarian system that exists under the guise of a choice between two parties because smaller parties have "no chance of winning".
    so your only option is armed conflict via revolution. Get to it with your militia.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    We are changing it from within. I do not advocate violence, I'm sorry you feel it is the way to accomplish your goals.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    mickeyrat wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    It's a single party authoritarian system that exists under the guise of a choice between two parties because smaller parties have "no chance of winning".
    so your only option is armed conflict via revolution. Get to it with your militia.

    unsung may be right, and that single party, I believe to be the corporatocratarians catefrances mentioned. So I say let's take up Jimi Hendrix' suggestion and get an army together and march down the streets, not with guns but, ahh, electric guitars! Look out baby, we're comin' to git ya!

    Sorry- it's my cryptic philosophy week. :)
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    aerial wrote:
    Term limits would help...
    ...
    The only continuity that would exist in government if term limits became law... the lobbyists. If you want lobbyists to draft legislation, then, terms limits on all government offices and no restrictions on corporate interests are for you.
    ...
    Besides, Term Limits are already in place... it's called the 'Ballot Box'. Everyone wants Term Limits on the other guy's ballot, never on their guy. If you quit voting the same person into office every election... you have Term Limits.
    And if you want more than two parties... don't vote for the person with the (R) next to his/her name anymore.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    unsung wrote:
    We are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, but it has somewhat turned into a democracy. In a democracy the majority rules which might sound like that is how it's supposed to be but in a majority rules world people suffer. In a CR the smallest minority group is protected and the rights of that group are defended. Of course the Founding Fathers intended the smallest minority group to be the individual.

    In a democracy poll numbers push policy. In a CR, the rights of the individual trump all.
    ...
    Originally, the Constitution had the House of Representatives deciding who'll sit it the Senate, right? The Founding Fathers also wanted the government to be run by the educated, landowning, tax paying people who had most at stake in government. The All Men Created Equal were all white, male land owners who paid taxes.
    To pretend that our founding Fathers believed in equality for everyone... the poor, the illiterate, the indigenous, the slaves... is really an insult to them. They lived in a world where these things were realities. A new born nation should not be left for the uneducated, unwashed populous because the truth is, they have no idea on how to govern.
    That is why the Electoral College was created when the Nation was merely 25 years old. To address the the need to elect their leader by a number of electors, overseen both both Houses of Congress.
    ...
    The Constitution is a living document, intended, by our Founding Fathers, to adapt to changing social environments. that is the true beauty of the document and the brilliance of foresight of the men whom created it.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    brianlux wrote:
    Monarchy or dictatorship: Rule by one (a king or emperor)
    Oligarchy: Rule by a few
    Democracy: Rule by a majority
    Republic: Rule by law"
    ...
    Brian... we are intended to be a Representative Republic in that we, the citizens of the nation, elect representatives of our Congressional Districts and our resident State to the Federal Legislature.
    The fact is, CateFrances is correct... we are basically a nation that is governed to protect the rights of corporations in their pursuit of happiness. The Citizens United thing has put corporations on the same level as you and me regarding who gets into office to represent us.. you, me, unsung, aerial, Exxon Mobil, CitiBank, Goldman Sachs... everyday people's best's interests. Granted, Bank of America caan dwarf any amount of campaign money you contribute, thus, making the voce they listen to... but, in America's view... Bank of America are people, too.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    Cosmo wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Monarchy or dictatorship: Rule by one (a king or emperor)
    Oligarchy: Rule by a few
    Democracy: Rule by a majority
    Republic: Rule by law"
    ...
    Brian... we are intended to be a Representative Republic in that we, the citizens of the nation, elect representatives of our Congressional Districts and our resident State to the Federal Legislature.
    The fact is, CateFrances is correct... we are basically a nation that is governed to protect the rights of corporations in their pursuit of happiness. The Citizens United thing has put corporations on the same level as you and me regarding who gets into office to represent us.. you, me, unsung, aerial, Exxon Mobil, CitiBank, Goldman Sachs... everyday people's best's interests. Granted, Bank of America caan dwarf any amount of campaign money you contribute, thus, making the voce they listen to... but, in America's view... Bank of America are people, too.

    Yes, thank you Cosmo (and Cate). This is the definition I was looking for but couldn't find the right words for.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    edited October 2013
    Oligarchy: Rule by a few
    the elite, the 1%ers

    it is smoke & mirrors & a great line of bullshit, smirks & grins
    dick_cheney.jpg

    it's all a fucking joke, ladies & gentlemen, & has been for a very long, long time

    the elite have us enslaved, we work for them. they do not any longer work for us. they own us

    anymore, we vote in the best of the worst
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    Dick_Cheney_Halliburton_War_Profits.jpg
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    i don't know what we call our system these days. but it is very hypocritical of us to be going around the world installing democracy when the democratic process in our own country is fucked and doesn't work at all.

    how can the minority party in congress have so much control?

    we have 80 members of the tea party holding the entire government hostage.

    these people represent about 15% of the population and they have ground the government to a halt.

    our system is a piece of shit.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    It really is the shits these days and nobody seems to have a viable solution.

    In his blog today, James Howard Kunstler referred to our leaders as "clownigarchs ". I don't read Kunstler as often as I used to but today's blog was one of those entries I refer to as a "Kunstler Classic":

    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/creepily-close/
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Guitar92playerGuitar92player Posts: 664
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    i don't know what we call our system these days. but it is very hypocritical of us to be going around the world installing democracy when the democratic process in our own country is fucked and doesn't work at all.

    how can the minority party in congress have so much control?

    we have 80 members of the tea party holding the entire government hostage.

    these people represent about 15% of the population and they have ground the government to a halt.

    our system is a piece of shit.

    i agree

    i wish Congress would pass a bill that made it law that they won't be paid unless they actually pass bills and do it a certain way. But that will never happen.
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense     - Present Tense
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    catefrances wrote:
    corporatocracy. 8-)

    ding ding ... we have a winner!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    Guitar92player wrote:
    i agree

    i wish Congress would pass a bill that made it law that they won't be paid unless they actually pass bills and do it a certain way. But that will never happen.
    most of them are already millionaires. they are not living off of the $172,000 they earn by "serving" their constituents. that is pocket change to 75% of those in congress.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    I refuse to buy into the whole 'we live in an oligarchy/corporatocracy' answer throughout this thread. Anyone who ACTUALLY lives in an oligarchy or any form of autocratic government would laugh at this. The reason for that is because this answer removes responsibility from the ordinary Americans who are responsible for buying into the two-party system and voting in a bullshit candidate every election, that has helped keep us in this mess. The moment we start voting for actual candidates and then get screwed by corporations and the top 1%ers we can actually complain, but when we keep voting in candidates who we already know are just corporate shills who will keep the same bullshit policies in place (especially those agreed to by both parties, like our shit foreign policy) then we should shut up and stop trying to act like we live in some alternate universe where we have no real power and no ability to change anything. Ask the Chinese what an oligarchy really looks like, and I think you'd be surprised by their answer.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    fuck wrote:
    I refuse to buy into the whole 'we live in an oligarchy/corporatocracy' answer throughout this thread. Anyone who ACTUALLY lives in an oligarchy or any form of autocratic government would laugh at this. The reason for that is because this answer removes responsibility from the ordinary Americans who are responsible for buying into the two-party system and voting in a bullshit candidate every election, that has helped keep us in this mess. The moment we start voting for actual candidates and then get screwed by corporations and the top 1%ers we can actually complain, but when we keep voting in candidates who we already know are just corporate shills who will keep the same bullshit policies in place (especially those agreed to by both parties, like our shit foreign policy) then we should shut up and stop trying to act like we live in some alternate universe where we have no real power and no ability to change anything. Ask the Chinese what an oligarchy really looks like, and I think you'd be surprised by their answer.

    the reality is that it is a mash up of various forms and that depending on what aspect of society we are discussing - different forms apply ... for me corporatocracy best applies because it ultimately highlights who is in charge of governance and public policy ... and plus - i'm not sure there is a true definition that would make it incorrect anyways ...

    also - i don't believe calling the US a corporatocracy absolves its citizens ... if anything - it's an indictment of those people ...
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Lots of opinions, which is cool, but that lead me to a question.

    What do you call a particular group that takes by the barrel of a gun? What do you call it when the govt does it?

    Where does that leave us?
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    unsung wrote:
    We are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, but it has somewhat turned into a democracy. In a democracy the majority rules which might sound like that is how it's supposed to be but in a majority rules world people suffer. In a CR the smallest minority group is protected and the rights of that group are defended. Of course the Founding Fathers intended the smallest minority group to be the individual.

    In a democracy poll numbers push policy. In a CR, the rights of the individual trump all.

    Yes
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    fuck wrote:
    I refuse to buy into the whole 'we live in an oligarchy/corporatocracy' answer throughout this thread. Anyone who ACTUALLY lives in an oligarchy or any form of autocratic government would laugh at this. The reason for that is because this answer removes responsibility from the ordinary Americans who are responsible for buying into the two-party system and voting in a bullshit candidate every election, that has helped keep us in this mess. The moment we start voting for actual candidates and then get screwed by corporations and the top 1%ers we can actually complain, but when we keep voting in candidates who we already know are just corporate shills who will keep the same bullshit policies in place (especially those agreed to by both parties, like our shit foreign policy) then we should shut up and stop trying to act like we live in some alternate universe where we have no real power and no ability to change anything. Ask the Chinese what an oligarchy really looks like, and I think you'd be surprised by their answer.
    ...
    Your plan would work.. if not for one major fault...
    Who decides on whom we get to vote for?
    ...
    Sure, we can vote for someone else, other than the seated Representative... but, who is this, 'other person'? He/She is someone placed on the ballot by those coroprations and 1%ers who run the political system by shovelling money into it.
    That is why our ballots give us the choice of shit or crap to choose from.
    Corporations are in the business to make money... not to ensure our happiness. They are smart and already have all of their bases covered.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • the wolfthe wolf Posts: 7,027
    Question = "what are we?"

    Answer = Truly Fucked
    Peace, Love.

    "To question your government is not unpatriotic --
    to not question your government is unpatriotic."
    -- Sen. Chuck Hagel
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    the wolf wrote:
    Question = "what are we?"

    Answer = Truly Fucked


    We are supposed to be a country ruled by law..A Republic
    But I have to agree with you.....
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
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