Tea party and affiliated groups hatched plan.....

mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,615
edited October 2013 in A Moving Train
This article was copied from The New York Times. Interesting read to be sure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a- ... ml?hp&_r=0

WASHINGTON — Shortly after President Obama started his second term, a loose-knit coalition of conservative activists led by former Attorney General Edwin Meese III gathered in the capital to plot strategy. Their push to repeal Mr. Obama’s health care law was going nowhere, and they desperately needed a new plan.
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DRIVING FORCES David Koch of Americans for Prosperity, Michael A. Needham of Heritage Action and former Attorney General Edwin Meese III played roles in the health law fight.
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Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed “blueprint to defunding Obamacare,” signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.

It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government.

“We felt very strongly at the start of this year that the House needed to use the power of the purse,” said one coalition member, Michael A. Needham, who runs Heritage Action for America, the political arm of the Heritage Foundation. “At least at Heritage Action, we felt very strongly from the start that this was a fight that we were going to pick.”

Last week the country witnessed the fallout from that strategy: a standoff that has shuttered much of the federal bureaucracy and unsettled the nation.

To many Americans, the shutdown came out of nowhere. But interviews with a wide array of conservatives show that the confrontation that precipitated the crisis was the outgrowth of a long-running effort to undo the law, the Affordable Care Act, since its passage in 2010 — waged by a galaxy of conservative groups with more money, organized tactics and interconnections than is commonly known.

With polls showing Americans deeply divided over the law, conservatives believe that the public is behind them. Although the law’s opponents say that shutting down the government was not their objective, the activists anticipated that a shutdown could occur — and worked with members of the Tea Party caucus in Congress who were excited about drawing a red line against a law they despise.

A defunding “tool kit” created in early September included talking points for the question, “What happens when you shut down the government and you are blamed for it?” The suggested answer was the one House Republicans give today: “We are simply calling to fund the entire government except for the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare.”

The current budget brinkmanship is just the latest development in a well-financed, broad-based assault on the health law, Mr. Obama’s signature legislative initiative. Groups like Tea Party Patriots, Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks are all immersed in the fight, as is Club for Growth, a business-backed nonprofit organization. Some, like Generation Opportunity and Young Americans for Liberty, both aimed at young adults, are upstarts. Heritage Action is new, too, founded in 2010 to advance the policy prescriptions of its sister group, the Heritage Foundation.

The billionaire Koch brothers, Charles and David, have been deeply involved with financing the overall effort. A group linked to the Kochs, Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce, disbursed more than $200 million last year to nonprofit organizations involved in the fight. Included was $5 million to Generation Opportunity, which created a buzz last month with an Internet advertisement showing a menacing Uncle Sam figure popping up between a woman’s legs during a gynecological exam.

The groups have also sought to pressure vulnerable Republican members of Congress with scorecards keeping track of their health care votes; have burned faux “Obamacare cards” on college campuses; and have distributed scripts for phone calls to Congressional offices, sample letters to editors and Twitter and Facebook offerings for followers to present as their own.

One sample Twitter offering — “Obamacare is a train wreck” — is a common refrain for Speaker John A. Boehner.

As the defunding movement picked up steam among outside advocates, Republicans who sounded tepid became targets. The Senate Conservatives Fund, a political action committee dedicated to “electing true conservatives,” ran radio advertisements against three Republican incumbents.

Heritage Action ran critical Internet advertisements in the districts of 100 Republican lawmakers who had failed to sign a letter by a North Carolina freshman, Representative Mark Meadows, urging Mr. Boehner to take up the defunding cause.

“They’ve been hugely influential,” said David Wasserman, who tracks House races for the nonpartisan Cook Political Report. “When else in our history has a freshman member of Congress from North Carolina been able to round up a gang of 80 that’s essentially ground the government to a halt?”

On Capitol Hill, the advocates found willing partners in Tea Party conservatives, who have repeatedly threatened to shut down the government if they do not get their way on spending issues. This time they said they were so alarmed by the health law that they were willing to risk a shutdown over it. (“This is exactly what the public wants,” Representative Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, founder of the House Tea Party Caucus, said on the eve of the shutdown.)

Despite Mrs. Bachmann’s comments, not all of the groups have been on board with the defunding campaign. Some, like the Koch-financed Americans for Prosperity, which spent $5.5 million on health care television advertisements over the past three months, are more focused on sowing public doubts about the law. But all have a common goal, which is to cripple a measure that Senator Ted Cruz, a Texas Republican and leader of the defunding effort, has likened to a horror movie.
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Americans for Prosperity

SOWING DOUBT A site by Americans for Prosperity, which has spent $5.5 million recently on television ads critical of the health care law.
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“We view this as a long-term effort,” said Tim Phillips, the president of Americans for Prosperity. He said his group expected to spend “tens of millions” of dollars on a “multifront effort” that includes working to prevent states from expanding Medicaid under the law. The group’s goal is not to defund the law.

“We want to see this law repealed,” Mr. Phillips said.

A Familiar Tactic

The crowd was raucous at the Hilton Anatole, just north of downtown Dallas, when Mr. Needham’s group, Heritage Action, arrived on a Tuesday in August for the second stop on a nine-city “Defund Obamacare Town Hall Tour.” Nearly 1,000 people turned out to hear two stars of the Tea Party movement: Mr. Cruz, and Jim DeMint, a former South Carolina senator who runs the Heritage Foundation.

“You’re here because now is the single best time we have to defund Obamacare,” declared Mr. Cruz, who would go on to rail against the law on the Senate floor in September with a monologue that ran for 21 hours. “This is a fight we can win.”

Although Mr. Cruz is new to the Senate, the tactic of defunding in Washington is not. For years, Congress has banned the use of certain federal money to pay for abortions, except in the case of incest and rape, by attaching the so-called Hyde Amendment to spending bills.

After the health law passed in 2010, Todd Tiahrt, then a Republican congressman from Kansas, proposed defunding bits and pieces of it. He said he spoke to Mr. Boehner’s staff about the idea while the Supreme Court, which upheld the central provision, was weighing the law’s constitutionality.

“There just wasn’t the appetite for it at the time,” Mr. Tiahrt said in an interview. “They thought, we don’t need to worry about it because the Supreme Court will strike it down.”

But the idea of using the appropriations process to defund an entire federal program, particularly one as far-reaching as the health care overhaul, raised the stakes considerably. In an interview, Mr. DeMint, who left the Senate to join the Heritage Foundation in January, said he had been thinking about it since the law’s passage, in part because Republican leaders were not more aggressive.

“They’ve been through a series of C.R.s and debt limits,” Mr. DeMint said, referring to continuing resolutions on spending, “and all the time there was discussion of ‘O.K., we’re not going to fight the Obamacare fight, we’ll do it next time.’ The conservatives who ran in 2010 promising to repeal it kept hearing, ‘This is not the right time to fight this battle.’ ”

Mr. DeMint is hardly alone in his distaste for the health law, or his willingness to do something about it. In the three years since Mr. Obama signed the health measure, Tea Party-inspired groups have mobilized, aided by a financing network that continues to grow, both in its complexity and the sheer amount of money that flows through it.

A review of tax records, campaign finance reports and corporate filings shows that hundreds of millions of dollars have been raised and spent since 2012 by organizations, many of them loosely connected, leading opposition to the measure.

One of the biggest sources of conservative money is Freedom Partners, a tax-exempt “business league” that claims more than 200 members, each of whom pays at least $100,000 in dues. The group’s board is headed by a longtime executive of Koch Industries, the conglomerate run by the Koch brothers, who were among the original financiers of the Tea Party movement. The Kochs declined to comment.

While Freedom Partners has financed organizations that are pushing to defund the law, like Heritage Action and Tea Party Patriots, Freedom Partners has not advocated that. A spokesman for the group, James Davis, said it was more focused on “educating Americans around the country on the negative impacts of Obamacare.”

The largest recipient of Freedom Partners cash — about $115 million — was the Center to Protect Patient Rights, according to the groups’ latest tax filings. Run by a political consultant with ties to the Kochs and listing an Arizona post office box for its address, the center appears to be little more than a clearinghouse for donations to still more groups, including American Commitment and the 60 Plus Association, both ardent foes of the health care law.


(Page 3 of 4)

American Commitment and 60 Plus were among a handful of groups calling themselves the “Repeal Coalition” that sent a letter in August urging Republican leaders in the House and the Senate to insist “at a minimum” in a one-year delay of carrying out the health care law as part of any budget deal. Another group, the Conservative 50 Plus Alliance, delivered a defunding petition with 68,700 signatures to the Senate.
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In the fight to shape public opinion, conservatives face well-organized liberal foes. Enroll America, a nonprofit group allied with the Obama White House, is waging a campaign to persuade millions of the uninsured to buy coverage. The law’s supporters are also getting huge assistance from the insurance industry, which is expected to spend $1 billion on advertising to help sell its plans on the exchanges.

“It is David versus Goliath,” said Mr. Phillips of Americans for Prosperity.

But conservatives are finding that with relatively small advertising buys, they can make a splash. Generation Opportunity, the youth-oriented outfit behind the “Creepy Uncle Sam” ads, is spending $750,000 on that effort, aimed at dissuading young people — a cohort critical to the success of the health care overhaul — from signing up for insurance under the new law.

The group receives substantial backing from Freedom Partners and appears ready to expand. Recently, Generation Opportunity moved into spacious new offices in Arlington, Va., where exposed ductwork, Ikea chairs and a Ping-Pong table give off the feel of a Silicon Valley start-up.

Its executive director, Evan Feinberg, a 29-year-old former Capitol Hill aide and onetime instructor for a leadership institute founded by Charles Koch, said there would be more Uncle Sam ads, coupled with college campus visits, this fall. Two other groups, FreedomWorks, with its “Burn Your Obamacare Card” protests, and Young Americans for Liberty, are also running campus events.

“A lot of folks have asked us, ‘Are we trying to sabotage the law?’ ” Mr. Feinberg said in an interview last week. His answer echoes the Freedom Partners philosophy: “Our goal is to educate and empower young people.”

Critical Timing

But many on the Republican right wanted to do more.

Mr. Meese’s low-profile coalition, the Conservative Action Project, which seeks to find common ground among leaders of an array of fiscally and socially conservative groups, was looking ahead to last Tuesday, when the new online health insurance marketplaces, called exchanges, were set to open. If the law took full effect as planned, many conservatives feared, it would be nearly impossible to repeal — even if a Republican president were elected in 2016.

“I think people realized that with the imminent beginning of Obamacare, that this was a critical time to make every effort to stop something,” Mr. Meese said in an interview. (He has since stepped down as the coalition’s chairman and has been succeeded by David McIntosh, a former congressman from Indiana.)

The defunding idea, Mr. Meese said, was “a logical strategy.” The idea drew broad support. Fiscal conservatives like Chris Chocola, the president of the Club for Growth, signed on to the blueprint. So did social and religious conservatives, like the Rev. Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition.

The document set a target date: March 27, when a continuing resolution allowing the government to function was to expire. Its message was direct: “Conservatives should not approve a C.R. unless it defunds Obamacare.”

But the March date came and went without a defunding struggle. In the Senate, Mr. Cruz and Senator Mike Lee, a Utah Republican, talked up the defunding idea, but it went nowhere in the Democratic-controlled chamber. In the House, Mr. Boehner wanted to concentrate instead on locking in the across-the-board budget cuts known as sequestration, and Tea Party lawmakers followed his lead. Outside advocates were unhappy but held their fire.

“We didn’t cause any trouble,” Mr. Chocola said.

Yet by summer, with an August recess looming and another temporary spending bill expiring at the end of September, the groups were done waiting.

I remember talking to reporters at the end of July, and they said, ‘This didn’t go anywhere,’ ” Mr. Needham recalled. “What all of us felt at the time was, this was never going to be a strategy that was going to win inside the Beltway. It was going to be a strategy where, during August, people would go home and hear from their constituents, saying: ‘You pledged to do everything you could to stop Obamacare. Will you defund it?’ ”
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Heritage Action, which has trained 6,000 people it calls sentinels around the country, sent them to open meetings and other events to confront their elected representatives. Its “Defund Obamacare Town Hall Tour,” which began in Fayetteville, Ark., on Aug. 19 and ended 10 days later in Wilmington, Del., drew hundreds at every stop.

The Senate Conservatives Fund, led by Mr. DeMint when he was in the Senate, put up a Web site in July called dontfundobamacare.com and ran television ads featuring Mr. Cruz and Mr. Lee urging people to tell their representatives not to fund the law.

When Senator Richard M. Burr, a North Carolina Republican, told a reporter that defunding the law was “the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard,” the fund bought a radio ad to attack him. Two other Republican senators up for re-election in 2014, Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, were also targeted. Both face Tea Party challengers.

In Washington, Tea Party Patriots, which created the defunding tool kit, set up a Web site, exemptamerica.com, to promote a rally last month showcasing many of the Republicans in Congress whom Democrats — and a number of fellow Republicans — say are most responsible for the shutdown.

While conservatives believe that the public will back them on defunding, a recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation found that a majority — 57 percent — disapproves of cutting off funding as a way to stop the law.

Last week, with the health care exchanges open for business and a number of prominent Republicans complaining that the “Defund Obamacare” strategy was politically damaging and pointless, Mr. Needham of Heritage Action said he felt good about what the groups had accomplished.

“It really was a groundswell,” he said, “that changed Washington from the outside in.”
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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Comments

  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Fucken embarrassment, they DNT GIVE A FUCK about ANY OF US. And yet we keep fucking electing them. Unreal!
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    I am ecstatic that someone had a plan to stop this law that was not written by our elected legislatures, and no one read!
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • quimby20quimby20 Posts: 823
    An article from the NYT basing conservativities.... A little jaded I think. Ask all the Dems who were stiffed armed into passing this in districts that clearly didn't want it, in Michigan Stupac comes to mind. No a single Republican vote. We have t pass it t see what is in it. Well now we do......
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,052
    "Last week the country witnessed the fallout from that strategy: a standoff that has shuttered much of the federal bureaucracy and unsettled the nation. "

    "...a long-running effort to undo the law, the Affordable Care Act, since its passage in 2010 — waged by a galaxy of conservative groups with more money, organized tactics and interconnections than is commonly known."

    "The billionaire Koch brothers, Charles and David, have been deeply involved with financing the overall effort."

    "“When else in our history has a freshman member of Congress from North Carolina been able to round up a gang of 80 that’s essentially ground the government to a halt?” "

    "Tea Party conservatives, who have repeatedly threatened to shut down the government if they do not get their way ..."

    "...many of the Republicans in Congress whom Democrats — and a number of fellow Republicans — say are most responsible for the shutdown. "

    So, what was it again about "the worst thing to happen to America"?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,615
    So just so I'm clear. You guys are perfectly fine with a congress that refuses to do their regular order. Legislate by crisis, pass a bill to continue the pay of the furloughed workers who arent earning that pay( which I believe is a good thing) for those workers who have no partin this, claim be against waste in government but conitnue to pass the continuing resolution to spend the same amount of fucking money per year instead of going to conference to settle the difference with the senate?
    And having all those corporate money at play which benefits those at the top only?
    You guys are good with that?

    I thought in a democracy , votes were held , laws were passed. If found to be in error later , amendments to said laws put in place by vote.

    Guess i was wrong.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Why does the left, generalizing here but seems accurate to me, seem bent on the dual strategy of demonization/name-calling combined with semantic-games to bully the right when they don't get their way?

    Point of fact, that regardless of how the left repeatedly characterizes the right as "shutting down the government", the right has repeatedly offered legislation to fund every single portion of the government except "obamacare". I see how this is a tactic, certainly, but it is not "shutting down the government". And truthfully the left could be accused more directly of that, since it is the left that refuses any funding bill that is exclusive of obamacare funding.

    Also, I don't see how the tactic on the right of refusing to fund this legislation is any mor dirty than the left, vis a vis Obama directly, repeating the mantra of "an average saving of $2500/year for the average family" ad naseum to sell this bill. So one side lies repeatedly, deliberately, and emphatically to sell a load of bullshit, and the other side say "dude, no way." And they are to blame?

    I dunno guys.
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,615
    Why does the left, generalizing here but seems accurate to me, seem bent on the dual strategy of demonization/name-calling combined with semantic-games to bully the right when they don't get their way?

    Point of fact, that regardless of how the left repeatedly characterizes the right as "shutting down the government", the right has repeatedly offered legislation to fund every single portion of the government except "obamacare". I see how this is a tactic, certainly, but it is not "shutting down the government". And truthfully the left could be accused more directly of that, since it is the left that refuses any funding bill that is exclusive of obamacare funding.

    Also, I don't see how the tactic on the right of refusing to fund this legislation is any mor dirty than the left, vis a vis Obama directly, repeating the mantra of "an average saving of $2500/year for the average family" ad naseum to sell this bill. So one side lies repeatedly, deliberately, and emphatically to sell a load of bullshit, and the other side say "dude, no way." And they are to blame?

    I dunno guys.
    but up to this point of "crisis" they have not chosen to act under whats called regular order? I dont give a flying fuck what anyones politics are. Do the fucking job you were sent to do. NOT work harder to keep the seat than show you earned it or should keep it

    All of them seem to forget they also represent those who didnt vote for them. their voice counts too.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,615
    besides the article was more about these groups and their agendas, as I read it.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    mickeyrat wrote:
    Why does the left, generalizing here but seems accurate to me, seem bent on the dual strategy of demonization/name-calling combined with semantic-games to bully the right when they don't get their way?

    Point of fact, that regardless of how the left repeatedly characterizes the right as "shutting down the government", the right has repeatedly offered legislation to fund every single portion of the government except "obamacare". I see how this is a tactic, certainly, but it is not "shutting down the government". And truthfully the left could be accused more directly of that, since it is the left that refuses any funding bill that is exclusive of obamacare funding.

    Also, I don't see how the tactic on the right of refusing to fund this legislation is any mor dirty than the left, vis a vis Obama directly, repeating the mantra of "an average saving of $2500/year for the average family" ad naseum to sell this bill. So one side lies repeatedly, deliberately, and emphatically to sell a load of bullshit, and the other side say "dude, no way." And they are to blame?

    I dunno guys.
    but up to this point of "crisis" they have not chosen to act under whats called regular order? I dont give a flying fuck what anyones politics are. Do the fucking job you were sent to do. NOT work harder to keep the seat than show you earned it or should keep it

    All of them seem to forget they also represent those who didnt vote for them. their voice counts too.
    Good points, both of you. And mickeyrat, your last comment especially - agree 100%.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Posts: 10,770
    I'm always curious as to how the regressives on the right would have reacted if Dick Cheney and Karl Rove had suggested this kind of health care plan that has the yahoos in the tea party so riled up.

    :corn:
  • I'm always curious as to how the regressives on the right would have reacted if Dick Cheney and Karl Rove had suggested this kind of health care plan that has the yahoos in the tea party so riled up.

    :corn:

    Most of th LEGITIMATE tea party affiliates have been exceedingly vocal in their distrust and dissatisfaction with the leading circle of Neo-con "republicans" in their own party. The Tea Party, as an honest pro-constitution, pro-liberty movement prior to it's derailment and co-opting by the right wing establishment side of the nwo-coin was always very cautious and uncomfortable with the notion of affiliation with the Republican Party. I think the ony reason it affiliated and ran under the republican moniker in the first place is:
    A. Ron Paul, as the defacto "leader" of the tea party was always very insisten upon the chances of success being far greater USING the Republican Party, as opposed to running independent, in a country where independent candidates get the shaft, and parties have inherent advantages based on the structure of the system.
    B. it was always assumed and discussed by Ron Paul supporters/tea party patriots that the Republican Party was so ideologically off its own base, and was so weakened by its own desertion of its base, that it was the easiest vehicle to overtake, that we could essentially steal the party back from the republican-in-name-only neocons, and restore some sort of legitimate opposition to "the left" and their neocon wolf in sheeps clothing brothers right of the aisle.

    So to answer your question, I don't think any honest member of the tea party thinks of Carl rove or Cheney as friends of the cause, and i sure as hell don't think they would have a problem voicing an opinion as such (albeit cautiously to avoid problematic tensions inside the GOP under which they operate - you can see this in the way Rand Paul very gaurdedly phrases his discontent with the likes of McCain etc. He doesn't view them as allies, but he knows he must work "with" them in som fashion)
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • mickeyrat wrote:
    but up to this point of "crisis" they have not chosen to act under whats called regular order?

    can you please explain what you mean by this?
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,615
    mickeyrat wrote:
    but up to this point of "crisis" they have not chosen to act under whats called regular order?

    can you please explain what you mean by this?
    did not both chambers have a budget passed by that respective chamber back in the spring? Isnt "regular order" when the call for conference with representatives of both chambers confering to resolve issues contained within each respective bill?
    Did that happen? Has that happened for a long time?

    No instead, there was a last minute vote after coming back from recess (seems they are in recess more than IN Session). I for one did not expect resolution at the last minute. Next up is tying this bullshit into the debt ceiling. If the concern over spending is that important, do the fucking job as it has worked all this time. Reduce the waste in spending, apply those savings to paying down the debt. Two things then happen, we dont spend more than needed on interest by actually reducing that debt and we spend within our means.

    Real tired of the bullshit from both sides that does nothing but serve THEMSELVES and those that contribute monetarily to the hypocrisy.


    You want to become a millionaire? Get elected to federal office. BOOM ,DONE.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • 63schoefflin63schoefflin Posts: 2,581
    No matter what side you are on.... if you are for big government I am 100% against you. Right or left...such a joke.
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  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,095
    No matter what side you are on.... if you are for big government I am 100% against you. Right or left...such a joke.

    How do you define 'big government'?
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,052
    No matter what side you are on.... if you are for big government I am 100% against you. Right or left...such a joke.

    No doubt you're breaking hearts left and right. 100%, eh? OK. :roll:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    mickeyrat wrote:
    So just so I'm clear. You guys are perfectly fine with a congress that refuses to do their regular order. Legislate by crisis, pass a bill to continue the pay of the furloughed workers who arent earning that pay( which I believe is a good thing) for those workers who have no partin this, claim be against waste in government but conitnue to pass the continuing resolution to spend the same amount of fucking money per year instead of going to conference to settle the difference with the senate?
    And having all those corporate money at play which benefits those at the top only?
    You guys are good with that?

    I thought in a democracy , votes were held , laws were passed. If found to be in error later , amendments to said laws put in place by vote.

    Guess i was wrong.

    America is not a Democracy it is a Republic...The ACA was put into place by the Supreme Court as a tax...
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    aerial wrote:
    America is not a Democracy it is a Republic...

    this has got to be one of the most bizarre thing i've ever read on this forum ... :?
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Posts: 10,770
    polaris_x wrote:
    aerial wrote:
    America is not a Democracy it is a Republic...

    this has got to be one of the most bizarre thing i've ever read on this forum ... :?

    Did you expect anything different?

    :D
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,052
    aerial wrote:

    America is not a Democracy it is a Republic...

    Democracy: A form of government in which people choose leaders by voting.

    Republic: A country that is governed by elected representatives and by an elected leader (such as a president) rather than by a king or queen.

    ;)
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,615
    brianlux wrote:
    aerial wrote:

    America is not a Democracy it is a Republic...

    Democracy: A form of government in which people choose leaders by voting.

    Republic: A country that is governed by elected representatives and by an elected leader (such as a president) rather than by a king or queen.

    ;)

    so what you are saying then Brian , is we are a democratic republic?

    Well fuck me running. its all about the vote then huh? :fp:
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  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    And this is why America is doomed...the uneducated ..
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,095
    aerial wrote:
    And this is why America is doomed...the uneducated ..

    And all this time I thought it was poor grammar.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,052
    mickeyrat wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    aerial wrote:

    America is not a Democracy it is a Republic...

    Democracy: A form of government in which people choose leaders by voting.

    Republic: A country that is governed by elected representatives and by an elected leader (such as a president) rather than by a king or queen.

    ;)

    so what you are saying then Brian , is we are a democratic republic?

    Well fuck me running. its all about the vote then huh? :fp:

    Actually, I'm not sure what we are.
    Leaders chosen by voting? Let's see, Gore won the popular vote so... no.
    Elected leader rather then a king or queen. Hmm. A little closer but the choices we often must make while voting... mmm. Well, not quite it there. Sometimes I think a queen might be kind of cool- male or female- something different anyway. A King would be ok as long as a) no real power and b) a good blues player.
    So what exactly are we? Fucked, maybe? Oh, I hope not.
    But I keep voting anyway just to keep in practice and, to be honest, I've been ok with the outcome now and then. :)
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Kings & queens are automatically seated, no?

    (aside from the modern-day genderification)

    Is electing different from voting?

    Maybe I'm naive or missing something, but per the definitions and responses posted here, a republic and democracy don't sound all that different less a few semantics.

    ("and to the republic, for which it stands" - said I as a kid, hand over heart [but actually a few inches over]).
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,052
    hedonist wrote:
    Kings & queens are automatically seated, no?

    (aside from the modern-day genderification)

    Is electing different from voting?

    Maybe I'm naive or missing something, but per the definitions and responses posted here, a republic and democracy don't sound all that different less a few semantics.

    ("and to the republic, for which it stands" - said I as a kid, hand over heart [but actually a few inches over]).

    The best definition I can find is here:

    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic

    The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications on minority rights. Both forms of government tend to use a representational system where citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. However, in a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure" democracy, the majority is not restrained and can impose its will on the minority.

    The various forms of government can be briefly summarized as:

    Monarchy or dictatorship: Rule by one (a king or emperor)
    Oligarchy: Rule by a few
    Democracy: Rule by a majority
    Republic: Rule by law
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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