so is it religion or the people in that religion .....

mickeyrat

that are the problem.

seriously. Myself , I identify as agnostic. Had many a profound experience, to not believe something is at work. What that something is I dont know. But being agnostic I find myself open to whats good about particular faiths. Kind of a take what you need leave the rest. I can really do without the dogma, etc. Someone elses idea of what the relationship is supposed to be with whatever god that religion prays to can hit the bricks too.

I've had occasion to be in houses of worship where there were limited people in the building and NO ONE in the sanctuary. It was at those times, being alone, that I felt a connection. But with each person that entered the room, I felt just that much of a disconnection.

Also have had experiences where I felt severely judged being in a church by those who would claim to be followers of Jesus. Which always seemed strange to me. The judgement i mean.


Seeing so many threads denigrating religion in general and certain faiths in particular led me to pose the question, is it the religion itself or is it more accurate to say its the people themselves that are the problem?

RYME

Any person clamming to be a Christian and attempts to judge anyone is a fraud Christian. This might offend some so called Christians but so be it.
There are many people out there who purposely pretend to be Christians, and then do shitty things to make us true Christians look bad. (The dude publicly burning the Koran in Florida for example WHY DID HE DO THAT SO LOUDLY?? to give real Christians a bad rap.)
If more people would focus on God's Word rather than the (traditions of men) there would be far less confusion in the world.
Know what I mean?? The true Christian God is the only God, the God of LOVE who created each person the way He wanted them to be, and for his pleasure. Many people don't realize this, therefore they don't make a big effort to try to please Him. What does He want from us?? Hosea Ch6 vs6 LOVE. God does not start off each day looking for someone to zap...,,,
True Christians know that God is the judge, and he doesn't need our help. We can desern who we want to fellowship with and who we don't but He is the judge.
Yes (Yashua Messiah Jesus the Christ) forgives anyone who repents, and ask the Father to lead guide direct, and touch their lives. Guess what He will bless you.
No, we did not hatch out from under a rock, or evolve from anything. Birds are birds, and people are people. We were all created by the same God...He created about 12billion of us believe it or not. Most people don't realize that He created the different races as well. He created different races because He wanted it that way, and He should be praised for it. Therefore no man should ever have to be sorry for their race. We should all embrace the different races. (If a particular Church judges and makes you feel unwelcome, get the hell out you don't need that)
I HOPE THIS TID BIT HELPS SOMEONE OUT THERE.

Smellyman

RYME wrote:

Any person clamming to be a Christian and attempts to judge anyone is a fraud Christian. This might offend some so called Christians but so be it.
There are many people out there who purposely pretend to be Christians, and then do shitty things to make us true Christians look bad. (The dude publicly burning the Koran in Florida for example WHY DID HE DO THAT SO LOUDLY?? to give real Christians a bad rap.)
If more people would focus on God's Word rather than the (traditions of men) there would be far less confusion in the world.
Know what I mean?? The true Christian God is the only God, the God of LOVE who created each person the way He wanted them to be, and for his pleasure. Many people don't realize this, therefore they don't make a big effort to try to please Him. What does He want from us?? Hosea Ch6 vs6 LOVE. God does not start off each day looking for someone to zap...,,,
True Christians know that God is the judge, and he doesn't need our help. We can desern who we want to fellowship with and who we don't but He is the judge.
Yes (Yashua Messiah Jesus the Christ) forgives anyone who repents, and ask the Father to lead guide direct, and touch their lives. Guess what He will bless you.
No, we did not hatch out from under a rock, or evolve from anything. Birds are birds, and people are people. We were all created by the same God...He created about 12billion of us believe it or not. Most people don't realize that He created the different races as well. He created different races because He wanted it that way, and He should be praised for it. Therefore no man should ever have to be sorry for their race. We should all embrace the different races. (If a particular Church judges and makes you feel unwelcome, get the hell out you don't need that)
I HOPE THIS TID BIT HELPS SOMEONE OUT THERE.

wait. Are you judging?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

A successful combination of the two is likely the answer to the question you pose.

For the better part, it is ultimately people who are responsible for their actions; but, I'm not so ready to overlook a religion's part in shaping the mentalities within these people. When people do things in the name of a religion... at a very minimum, concerns are legitimate.

Drawing an analogy... there are many Americans aghast at their country's current war efforts, but this fact doesn't absolve the US and Americans for their aggression.

hedonist

We can't help but judge. It's part of nature, of our nature.

Survival.

What we do (or not) with how others judge us is up to us.

mickeyrat, I'm agnostic too. I think we find our or make our sanctuaries as we can.

I hope the openness of your post continues as this thread progresses.

(as to the question in the thread title? With Mr. Thirty on the combo approach)

RYME

mickeyrat wrote:

that are the problem.

seriously. Myself , I identify as agnostic. Had many a profound experience, to not believe something is at work. What that something is I dont know. But being agnostic I find myself open to whats good about particular faiths. Kind of a take what you need leave the rest. I can really do without the dogma, etc. Someone elses idea of what the relationship is supposed to be with whatever god that religion prays to can hit the bricks too.

I've had occasion to be in houses of worship where there were limited people in the building and NO ONE in the sanctuary. It was at those times, being alone, that I felt a connection. But with each person that entered the room, I felt just that much of a disconnection.

Also have had experiences where I felt severely judged being in a church by those who would claim to be followers of Jesus. Which always seemed strange to me. The judgement i mean.
:!: This line is what got me writing. That's terrible if some supposed Jesus followers made you feel judged and unwelcome. That aint rite. I spend half my life trying to show/explain to people the difference between genuine Christians , and fakes. Those were fakes you were talking about. Am I judging them, no it's just a fact.
True Christians wouldn't do that to you. :!:

Seeing so many threads denigrating religion in general and certain faiths in particular led me to pose the question, is it the religion itself or is it more accurate to say its the people themselves that are the problem?

catefrances

considering it is people who invented religion, im gonna go with people. I also think we have to define religion/worship/spirituality and take a good hard look at its evolution from its beginnings as a more female friendly form of worship to its current male oriented form. when did it start to change and why did it. whose agenda did such a change serve.. and whose agenda does it serve today.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

people. no question in my mind.

mickeyrat

RYME wrote:

Any person clamming to be a Christian and attempts to judge anyone is a fraud Christian. This might offend some so called Christians but so be it.
There are many people out there who purposely pretend to be Christians, and then do shitty things to make us true Christians look bad. (The dude publicly burning the Koran in Florida for example WHY DID HE DO THAT SO LOUDLY?? to give real Christians a bad rap.)
If more people would focus on God's Word rather than the (traditions of men) there would be far less confusion in the world.
Know what I mean?? The true Christian God is the only God, the God of LOVE who created each person the way He wanted them to be, and for his pleasure. Many people don't realize this, therefore they don't make a big effort to try to please Him. What does He want from us?? Hosea Ch6 vs6 LOVE. God does not start off each day looking for someone to zap...,,,
True Christians know that God is the judge, and he doesn't need our help. We can desern who we want to fellowship with and who we don't but He is the judge.
Yes (Yashua Messiah Jesus the Christ) forgives anyone who repents, and ask the Father to lead guide direct, and touch their lives. Guess what He will bless you.
No, we did not hatch out from under a rock, or evolve from anything. Birds are birds, and people are people. We were all created by the same God...He created about 12billion of us believe it or not. Most people don't realize that He created the different races as well. He created different races because He wanted it that way, and He should be praised for it. Therefore no man should ever have to be sorry for their race. We should all embrace the different races. (If a particular Church judges and makes you feel unwelcome, get the hell out you don't need that)
I HOPE THIS TID BIT HELPS SOMEONE OUT THERE.

I would appreciate not being preached to , thank you. I believe you have missed the point of the thread.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

RYME wrote:

No, we did not hatch out from under a rock, or evolve from anything. Birds are birds, and people are people.

:fp:

brianlux

mickeyrat wrote:

that are the problem.

seriously. Myself , I identify as agnostic. Had many a profound experience, to not believe something is at work. What that something is I dont know. But being agnostic I find myself open to whats good about particular faiths. Kind of a take what you need leave the rest. I can really do without the dogma, etc. Someone elses idea of what the relationship is supposed to be with whatever god that religion prays to can hit the bricks too.

I've had occasion to be in houses of worship where there were limited people in the building and NO ONE in the sanctuary. It was at those times, being alone, that I felt a connection. But with each person that entered the room, I felt just that much of a disconnection.

Also have had experiences where I felt severely judged being in a church by those who would claim to be followers of Jesus. Which always seemed strange to me. The judgement i mean.


Seeing so many threads denigrating religion in general and certain faiths in particular led me to pose the question, is it the religion itself or is it more accurate to say its the people themselves that are the problem?

I've had similar experiences, mickey rat. Tried to be open to different ideas/religions/faiths. Sought meaning to the mysterious forces at work. Questioned the motives of individuals in various religions. When I came across Tom Hayden's book, The Lost Gospel of the Earth, I found some resolution to my questions about religion and faith. In his book, Hayden delves into the nature/earth oriented aspects of several major religions and in doing so implies that our human quest for spirituality is integral with to our ties to the planet that gives us life and sustains us. The idea of "church" or sanctuary being a quiet walk in the woods or standing at the shore looking out on the ocean or even just looking at the tree behind the store turn to flames of color each fall seemed far less cliched to me after reading that book. The Bible talks about "where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them" works well this way also although I find the fewer the better in the church that is nature.

On the other hand, being with a large number of people at a great concert can be like church as well. Seeing John Lee Hooker was like a revival. Jimi Hendrix was voodoo gale force church. Pearl Jam Missoula was rockin' big time church.

Dirtie_Frank

While I am not a practicing Catholic anymore, I do believe religion provides some good in the world I believe it gives some a conscience. I think it teaches some kids right and wrong when taught correctly. There are some atheists I know who can give two shirts about other people. Their excuse is what does it matter to me. That can be said for some religious people too, but I think the teaching of peace and forgiveness can be a good thing. Just my .02

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I'm kind of worked up. I'll call a spade a spade: religion is the ultimate con job.

I went to my Grandmother's funeral a few years back. She re-married later in life. The guy she married was a Roman Catholic. She died and we made funeral arrangements- RC style to ease the stress on her 4th husband.

Disgusting. This 'event' seemed to me a reason for all these people to put their fine clothes on, show how practiced they were repeating words when prompted, and impressing each other with how 'enlightened' they were. My grandmother seemed to be an afterthought of this goofy ritual, but to make matters horrid: at one point the priest explained how great Roman Catholic people were and how inferior non-RC people were. He had the RC people stand and basically be recognized, while the shitty people had to sit there. The shitty people in this particular event were my grandmother's blood relatives. We sat there while the faithful all approvingly looked at each other and cast disdainful looks in our direction. Not that we wanted it, but nobody came by to express anything to any of us.

I was entertaining punching out a few of the Catholics for their blatant and ignorant treatment of my mother and aunts and uncles and cousins as we tried to pretend this was a nice ceremony for Grandma.

Fucking idiots. I guess when they are sitting in the clouds with Jesus and all the billions of other people living happily in eternity, they can really look at all the non-believers toiling away in Hell and say, "We tried to tell them!"

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm too heavy to sit on a cloud.

brianlux

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm too heavy to sit on a cloud.

Great line TBU. I love it!

Thirty Bills Unpaid

brianlux wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm too heavy to sit on a cloud.

Great line TBU. I love it!

Good to hear from you, Bri! Keep chugging along with those environmental issues you are so passionate about.

Back to the original question:

It is always the people, but religion has played a role. This cannot be denied. It's part in parcel just like...

1. Junkie kills some dude in a hold up trying to ascertain funds to support drug habit. Individual's fault... drugs have played a role in shaping this person's actions.
2. Gambler embezzles funds from work trying to erase debts owed. Individual's fault... gambling played a role in shaping this person's actions.
3. Pedophile abuses a child. Individual's fault... history of abuse played a role in shaping this person's actions.

Religious zealot acts out in the name of a religion. Individual's fault... religion played a role in shaping this person's actions.

Go Beavers

Great question, Mickeyrat. I go with that it's the people in the religion. The religion itself only provides a vehicle to extenuate, encourage, or reinforce aspects of that person's personality. Religion, in this case for what I'm talking about, is the fundamentalist kind that breeds divisiveness, inequality, and judgement. There's other kinds of dogma that's non-religious that appeals to people, as well.

Look at individual over time. They either were raised in this fundamentalist atmosphere, which shaped there personality, or they were drawn to it later in life. The person in the former example is mostly being guided by family and community, which is greater than the religion itself. The latter is drawn to the fundamentalism because it provides a sense of comfort.

I've thought about this since being on facebook the last few years and seeing how people from high school are that I haven't seen in 20+ years. There's several that have turned into Christian fundamentalist, who were basically non-religious in high school. In addition to being non-religious, they were also neutral or no opinion types about historical and current events. In these cases, it looks like the religion has given them a framework for their world view that they didn't have when younger. Unfortunately, it seems more of a fear response and a literal, black-and-white framework to view things. Rather than being comfortable with ambiguity, it's the avoidance of it. This is also understandable though, because sitting with your mind in a grey area can be unsettling.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I'm kind of worked up. I'll call a spade a spade: religion is the ultimate con job.

I went to my Grandmother's funeral a few years back. She re-married later in life. The guy she married was a Roman Catholic. She died and we made funeral arrangements- RC style to ease the stress on her 4th husband.

Disgusting. This 'event' seemed to me a reason for all these people to put their fine clothes on, show how practiced they were repeating words when prompted, and impressing each other with how 'enlightened' they were. My grandmother seemed to be an afterthought of this goofy ritual, but to make matters horrid: at one point the priest explained how great Roman Catholic people were and how inferior non-RC people were. He had the RC people stand and basically be recognized, while the shitty people had to sit there. The shitty people in this particular event were my grandmother's blood relatives. We sat there while the faithful all approvingly looked at each other and cast disdainful looks in our direction. Not that we wanted it, but nobody came by to express anything to any of us.

I was entertaining punching out a few of the Catholics for their blatant and ignorant treatment of my mother and aunts and uncles and cousins as we tried to pretend this was a nice ceremony for Grandma.

Fucking idiots. I guess when they are sitting in the clouds with Jesus and all the billions of other people living happily in eternity, they can really look at all the non-believers toiling away in Hell and say, "We tried to tell them!"

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm too heavy to sit on a cloud.

blame the sheepherder, not the flock. but that is fucking disgusting. I literally could not believe the words I was reading.

Drowned Out

Without doubt, people. First, because as cate said, we invented religion.
But also because of this:

RYME wrote:

The true Christian God is the only God

A divisive statement of fact with zero proof. No mention of faith, not presented as a belief. No regard to the majority who disagree, and no sensitivity to those who would be offended due to their own beliefs, who you are implying a straight up wrong in their own faith. This is not an exclusively Christian trait, either.

A statement of true intolerance and judgement, negating all the phony positivity in the rest of the post.

RYME wrote:

the God of LOVE who created each person the way He wanted them to be, and for his pleasure.

Sick, sadist fuck if the pain and injustice in this world was created for his pleasure. Now don't give me any BS about 'mysterious ways'.

mickeyrat

Drowned Out wrote:

Without doubt, people. First, because as cate said, we invented religion.
But also because of this:

RYME wrote:

The true Christian God is the only God

A divisive statement of fact with zero proof. No mention of faith, not presented as a belief. No regard to the majority who disagree, and no sensitivity to those who would be offended due to their own beliefs, who you are implying a straight up wrong in their own faith. This is not an exclusively Christian trait, either.

A statement of true intolerance and judgement, negating all the phony positivity in the rest of the post.

RYME wrote:

the God of LOVE who created each person the way He wanted them to be, and for his pleasure.

Sick, sadist fuck if the pain and injustice in this world was created for his pleasure. Now don't give me any BS about 'mysterious ways'.

I find the first quote a bit ironic myself, being that of the Big 3 monotheistic religions, they are ALL worshiping the God of Abraham.

mickeyrat

Something else I've noticed is how defensive we can become in regards to the greater topic itself.

mookeywrench

Authoritative books are the problem.

Last-12-Exit

RYME wrote:

Any person clamming to be a Christian and attempts to judge anyone is a fraud Christian. This might offend some so called Christians but so be it.
There are many people out there who purposely pretend to be Christians, and then do shitty things to make us true Christians look bad. (The dude publicly burning the Koran in Florida for example WHY DID HE DO THAT SO LOUDLY?? to give real Christians a bad rap.)
If more people would focus on God's Word rather than the (traditions of men) there would be far less confusion in the world.
Know what I mean?? The true Christian God is the only God, the God of LOVE who created each person the way He wanted them to be, and for his pleasure. Many people don't realize this, therefore they don't make a big effort to try to please Him. What does He want from us?? Hosea Ch6 vs6 LOVE. God does not start off each day looking for someone to zap...,,,
True Christians know that God is the judge, and he doesn't need our help. We can desern who we want to fellowship with and who we don't but He is the judge.
Yes (Yashua Messiah Jesus the Christ) forgives anyone who repents, and ask the Father to lead guide direct, and touch their lives. Guess what He will bless you.
No, we did not hatch out from under a rock, or evolve from anything. Birds are birds, and people are people. We were all created by the same God...He created about 12billion of us believe it or not. Most people don't realize that He created the different races as well. He created different races because He wanted it that way, and He should be praised for it. Therefore no man should ever have to be sorry for their race. We should all embrace the different races. (If a particular Church judges and makes you feel unwelcome, get the hell out you don't need that)
I HOPE THIS TID BIT HELPS SOMEONE OUT THERE.

:fp: The answer is both

lukin2006

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I'll call a spade a spade: religion is the ultimate con job.

Exactly ...

Last-12-Exit

60 minutes reporter: "you believe the holy spirit directed you to write killing Jesus?"
Bill O'reiley: "Yes, I believe that."

Enough said.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

lukin2006 wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I'll call a spade a spade: religion is the ultimate con job.

Exactly ...

But here's the thing... if people choose to believe and that belief guides them in a peaceful lifestyle that infringes upon nobody else's life... then I am hardly inclined to take that away from them. In fact, I would encourage it- especially if not believing might make them unhappy or change their positive outlook on life.

As we all do... I have very good friends that have religion in their lives. We co-exist by leaving the topic of religion alone- my friends know where I am at and I know where they are at. Debating the topic can only do harm to our relationship.

And, it is at this point when I would like to say to the good people on here that have been defending their religion that my beliefs are my beliefs and yours are yours. I'm confident you are good people and regardless of our personal positions on religion, or politics, or the death penalty, or whatever... I appreciate the opportunity to speak about these matters.

I'm always open to listening and learning. My Amazon order for the book attempting to detail the fear mongering towards the Muslim faith is en route. I won't be converting, but I would like to understand how misperceptions have developed.

mca47

Religion is just an organized means for people to develop and express crazy ideas. Any individual who talks to people who aren't there, an individual who makes up history, an individual who believes in "fairy tales" would be considered a nut.
A group of people believing in all those things..."religion".

catefrances

RYME wrote:

Any person clamming to be a Christian and attempts to judge anyone is a fraud Christian. This might offend some so called Christians but so be it.
There are many people out there who purposely pretend to be Christians, and then do shitty things to make us true Christians look bad. (The dude publicly burning the Koran in Florida for example WHY DID HE DO THAT SO LOUDLY?? to give real Christians a bad rap.)
If more people would focus on God's Word rather than the (traditions of men) there would be far less confusion in the world.
Know what I mean?? The true Christian God is the only God, the God of LOVE who created each person the way He wanted them to be, and for his pleasure. Many people don't realize this, therefore they don't make a big effort to try to please Him. What does He want from us?? Hosea Ch6 vs6 LOVE. God does not start off each day looking for someone to zap...,,,
True Christians know that God is the judge, and he doesn't need our help. We can desern who we want to fellowship with and who we don't but He is the judge.
Yes (Yashua Messiah Jesus the Christ) forgives anyone who repents, and ask the Father to lead guide direct, and touch their lives. Guess what He will bless you.
No, we did not hatch out from under a rock, or evolve from anything. Birds are birds, and people are people. We were all created by the same God...He created about 12billion of us believe it or not. Most people don't realize that He created the different races as well. He created different races because He wanted it that way, and He should be praised for it. Therefore no man should ever have to be sorry for their race. We should all embrace the different races. (If a particular Church judges and makes you feel unwelcome, get the hell out you don't need that)
I HOPE THIS TID BIT HELPS SOMEONE OUT THERE.

I am so glad my embracing of ALL humans regardless of race meets with the approval of your god. though I hate to tell you it has absolutely zero to with any god and my reverence of such... or as it turns out lack thereof. oh and yes we did evolve from something else... and were not the only creatures that did so. and youre right... we didn't hatch from under a rock.. but we did come from an egg... not wholly but like everything else that procreates through fertilisation of an ovum. as for repenting and being forgiven for it... I have nothing to repent for. I have committed no sins as sin is a religious term and religion plays no part in my life.. and I am so very ok with that.

THE LOOK

People...we are our own worst enemy.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

THE LOOK wrote:

People...we are our own worst enemy.

But we cannot help ourselves- it's our nature.

josevolution

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I'm kind of worked up. I'll call a spade a spade: religion is the ultimate con job.

I went to my Grandmother's funeral a few years back. She re-married later in life. The guy she married was a Roman Catholic. She died and we made funeral arrangements- RC style to ease the stress on her 4th husband.

Disgusting. This 'event' seemed to me a reason for all these people to put their fine clothes on, show how practiced they were repeating words when prompted, and impressing each other with how 'enlightened' they were. My grandmother seemed to be an afterthought of this goofy ritual, but to make matters horrid: at one point the priest explained how great Roman Catholic people were and how inferior non-RC people were. He had the RC people stand and basically be recognized, while the shitty people had to sit there. The shitty people in this particular event were my grandmother's blood relatives. We sat there while the faithful all approvingly looked at each other and cast disdainful looks in our direction. Not that we wanted it, but nobody came by to express anything to any of us.

I was entertaining punching out a few of the Catholics for their blatant and ignorant treatment of my mother and aunts and uncles and cousins as we tried to pretend this was a nice ceremony for Grandma.

Fucking idiots. I guess when they are sitting in the clouds with Jesus and all the billions of other people living happily in eternity, they can really look at all the non-believers toiling away in Hell and say, "We tried to tell them!"

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm too heavy to sit on a cloud.

Cremation that's where it's at fuck the funerals ...Sorry to hear about the dick heads at your grandma's funeral ..

Thirty Bills Unpaid

josevolution wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I'm kind of worked up. I'll call a spade a spade: religion is the ultimate con job.

I went to my Grandmother's funeral a few years back. She re-married later in life. The guy she married was a Roman Catholic. She died and we made funeral arrangements- RC style to ease the stress on her 4th husband.

Disgusting. This 'event' seemed to me a reason for all these people to put their fine clothes on, show how practiced they were repeating words when prompted, and impressing each other with how 'enlightened' they were. My grandmother seemed to be an afterthought of this goofy ritual, but to make matters horrid: at one point the priest explained how great Roman Catholic people were and how inferior non-RC people were. He had the RC people stand and basically be recognized, while the shitty people had to sit there. The shitty people in this particular event were my grandmother's blood relatives. We sat there while the faithful all approvingly looked at each other and cast disdainful looks in our direction. Not that we wanted it, but nobody came by to express anything to any of us.

I was entertaining punching out a few of the Catholics for their blatant and ignorant treatment of my mother and aunts and uncles and cousins as we tried to pretend this was a nice ceremony for Grandma.

Fucking idiots. I guess when they are sitting in the clouds with Jesus and all the billions of other people living happily in eternity, they can really look at all the non-believers toiling away in Hell and say, "We tried to tell them!"

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm too heavy to sit on a cloud.

Cremation that's where it's at fuck the funerals ...Sorry to hear about the dick heads at your grandma's funeral ..

Thanks for the sentiments, Jose.

I'm pretty sure that after the ceremony they scrubbed the hell out of the pews we sat in. I told my mother what I had posted when my parents were over for dinner the other night. She asked if I had included where a close friend of the family was planning on singing a song as a tribute to Grandma (she has talent- it would have been good). I forgot to mention that part: the Catholics wouldn't have any of that- not to mention the piano player refused to play the accompanying music.

The irony is so rich here though. If the facial expressions revealed anything, they likely all spoke about how lost and simple we were. Yet they believe in a man that sits in the clouds, is omnipresent and offers dead people eternal life in a really cool place.