If no taxes, what?

Last-12-Exit

I said my apologies for being vague. This is a thread about taxes. I didn't feel the need to add financially in my incredibly vague statement. I obviously should have. That is not to say the economy was perfect and there were never any problems with the US in the 100 years I was talking about. Congress used the income tax to fund war, which in turn, boosted the economy. Which lead to revoking the income tax.

I'm well aware of the wars and social problems this country dealt with in the 1800s.

cincybearcat

Gern Blansten wrote:

It's ridiculous to say that an income tax is theft and a consumption tax isn't. Absolutely ridiculous.

While I don't agree with the comment 100%, I don't get yours either. For a consumption tax, the buyer has a choice on whether or not to buy it, most items anyhow. Do you have a choice on whether or not you work?

vant0037

Last-12-Exit wrote:

I said my apologies for being vague. This is a thread about taxes. I didn't feel the need to add financially in my incredibly vague statement. I obviously should have. That is not to say the economy was perfect and there were never any problems with the US in the 100 years I was talking about. Congress used the income tax to fund war, which in turn, boosted the economy. Which lead to revoking the income tax.

I'm well aware of the wars and social problems this country dealt with in the 1800s.

That's fair. Like I said, I'm staying out of the broader debate about taxes. My point was more of an aside: there are probably better examples to critique a tax system with than saying "things were better before 1907." That's all.

Carry on.

brianlux

Lots of interesting thoughts on a tough subject here. So it seems that most everyone agrees some form of taxation is necessary. My wife has a crazy (crazy as in it will never happen) idea. She thinks everything should be taxed except primary residence and food. Kinda makes sense the way she puts it.

lukin2006

of all the taxes that we are forced to pay property and education taxes are the worst ... by far.

Godfather.

lukin2006 wrote:

of all the taxes that we are forced to pay property and education taxes are the worst ... by far.

we are grossly over taxed because of goverment over spending and aid to other countries in my opinion.


Godfather.

Pingfah

cincybearcat wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

It's ridiculous to say that an income tax is theft and a consumption tax isn't. Absolutely ridiculous.

While I don't agree with the comment 100%, I don't get yours either. For a consumption tax, the buyer has a choice on whether or not to buy it, most items anyhow. Do you have a choice on whether or not you work?

In the literal sense, yes of course you have a choice, in the same sense as you have the choice to starve and not wear clothes. That either is truly a choice is nothing but a glib throwaway observation with no basis in reality. In reality, for a low income family, this choice means nothing at all. Families in poverty spend almost all of their income on essentials, things you have no choice but to buy.

polaris_x

taxes are fundamentally not the problem ... the use of those taxes and the philosophy on the purpose of those taxes are ...

if i told everyone there was a place with 50% income tax but everyone had access to the best healthcare, education and a very high standard of living with very little crime - where everyone worked hard but had like 8 weeks off a year and had the means to travel and do things ... who wouldn't take it? ...

backseatLover12

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Taxes are completely necessary.

C'mon, man.

I agree.

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

taxes are fundamentally not the problem ... the use of those taxes and the philosophy on the purpose of those taxes are ...

if i told everyone there was a place with 50% income tax but everyone had access to the best healthcare, education and a very high standard of living with very little crime - where everyone worked hard but had like 8 weeks off a year and had the means to travel and do things ... who wouldn't take it? ...

Norway? Am I correct? Now is that 50% income tax or is that 50% of all taxes paid.

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

Norway? Am I correct? Now is that 50% income tax or is that 50% of all taxes paid.

i don't think the place exists ... it was just a hypothetical to highlight that it's not the concept of taxes people should be debating ... just simply what the role of gov't is and how taxes should be allocated ...

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Norway? Am I correct? Now is that 50% income tax or is that 50% of all taxes paid.

i don't think the place exists ... it was just a hypothetical to highlight that it's not the concept of taxes people should be debating ... just simply what the role of gov't is and how taxes should be allocated ...

Well when you add income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes we in Canada are extremely high ... the problem as I see it is the incompetent politicians ... good luck trying to solve that problem.

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

Well when you add income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes we in Canada are extremely high ... the problem as I see it is the incompetent politicians ... good luck trying to solve that problem.

well ... not that i'm gonna waste too much time defending politicians in general ... but it isn't so bad here ... the main problem are the people ... we can't agree on what facts are and then are easily manipulated to believe some things over the other ...

i mean ... whatever your philosophy on the economy and governance - people can't support corrupt gov'ts and ineptitude but yet people do proudly and loyally ... so, really ... it's us - the voting public that needs to be fixed ...

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Well when you add income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes we in Canada are extremely high ... the problem as I see it is the incompetent politicians ... good luck trying to solve that problem.

well ... not that i'm gonna waste too much time defending politicians in general ... but it isn't so bad here ... the main problem are the people ... we can't agree on what facts are and then are easily manipulated to believe some things over the other ...

i mean ... whatever your philosophy on the economy and governance - people can't support corrupt gov'ts and ineptitude but yet people do proudly and loyally ... so, really ... it's us - the voting public that needs to be fixed ...

I've stated over and over until you give the people more say in running the country you do not have a democracy ... just going to vote every 4 or 5 years is not a democracy ... imo. Far too often they just thumb their noses at the electorate until the next election and political parties are really good at pandering to groups that give them then the best chance at election. Tax $$$ are pissed away in this country with little consequence to the politicians that are responsible, they treat the tax payers like we are there servants and most elected officials run things like its their fiefdom when in reality it should be the other way around. We need serious election reform in this country ... will it happen ... not as long as the PC and Liberals are running things and I'm pretty sure if the NDP come to power it'll stay the same.

Yes the country needs taxes to function, no doubt ... but they probably don't need as much if they just became a lot more efficient.

Go Beavers

Godfather. wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

of all the taxes that we are forced to pay property and education taxes are the worst ... by far.

we are grossly over taxed because of goverment over spending and aid to other countries in my opinion.


Godfather.

I'm always curious what criteria people use to decide that they're overtaxed.

hedonist

lukin2006 wrote:

Yes the country needs taxes to function, no doubt ... but they probably don't need as much if they just became a lot more efficient.

This has been my view from the get-go.

Seems as if many are living - or trying to live - beyond their means.

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

I've stated over and over until you give the people more say in running the country you do not have a democracy ... just going to vote every 4 or 5 years is not a democracy ... imo. Far too often they just thumb their noses at the electorate until the next election and political parties are really good at pandering to groups that give them then the best chance at election. Tax $$$ are pissed away in this country with little consequence to the politicians that are responsible, they treat the tax payers like we are there servants and most elected officials run things like its their fiefdom when in reality it should be the other way around. We need serious election reform in this country ... will it happen ... not as long as the PC and Liberals are running things and I'm pretty sure if the NDP come to power it'll stay the same.

Yes the country needs taxes to function, no doubt ... but they probably don't need as much if they just became a lot more efficient.

i hear what you're saying but what would it matter if we voted every 2 years? ... Rob Ford's popularity is as strong as ever! ... that's what we are working with ...

Gern Blansten

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm always curious what criteria people use to decide that they're overtaxed.

What I have found (as someone who prepares about 500 individual tax returns each year) is that the people that pay the least bitch the most.

hedonist

Go Beavers wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

of all the taxes that we are forced to pay property and education taxes are the worst ... by far.

we are grossly over taxed because of goverment over spending and aid to other countries in my opinion.


Godfather.

I'm always curious what criteria people use to decide that they're overtaxed.

My company works closely with various states, counties, etc. Each one sends us, on a regular basis, a one-page report - via regular mail, in an 8 1/2 x 11 envelope, with a separate page consisting only of the business entity name.

We've asked them repeatedly to email this to us, and they always say OK. Never happens.

What a fucking waste of resources and a glorious example of inefficiency.

That's just part of my criteria.

ajedigecko

hedonist wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Yes the country needs taxes to function, no doubt ... but they probably don't need as much if they just became a lot more efficient.

This has been my view from the get-go.

Seems as if many are living - or trying to live - beyond their means.

Indeed.

ajedigecko

Gern Blansten wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm always curious what criteria people use to decide that they're overtaxed.

What I have found (as someone who prepares about 500 individual tax returns each year) is that the people that pay the least bitch the most.

They have the most to lose.

unsung

Go Beavers wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

of all the taxes that we are forced to pay property and education taxes are the worst ... by far.

we are grossly over taxed because of goverment over spending and aid to other countries in my opinion.


Godfather.

I'm always curious what criteria people use to decide that they're overtaxed.

I'm working a ton of OT right now, I'm at 75hrs/week.

My next check will have enough federal taxes taken out alone that it would cover two of my mortgage payments. Generally I don't work these amount of hours so it's a lot at once but it's too much.

hedonist

Gern Blansten wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm always curious what criteria people use to decide that they're overtaxed.

What I have found (as someone who prepares about 500 individual tax returns each year) is that the people that pay the least bitch the most.

I bitch for (some of) the reasons I stated earlier.

We pay, and always have, what is required. No weaseling here!

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I've stated over and over until you give the people more say in running the country you do not have a democracy ... just going to vote every 4 or 5 years is not a democracy ... imo. Far too often they just thumb their noses at the electorate until the next election and political parties are really good at pandering to groups that give them then the best chance at election. Tax $$$ are pissed away in this country with little consequence to the politicians that are responsible, they treat the tax payers like we are there servants and most elected officials run things like its their fiefdom when in reality it should be the other way around. We need serious election reform in this country ... will it happen ... not as long as the PC and Liberals are running things and I'm pretty sure if the NDP come to power it'll stay the same.

Yes the country needs taxes to function, no doubt ... but they probably don't need as much if they just became a lot more efficient.

i hear what you're saying but what would it matter if we voted every 2 years? ... Rob Ford's popularity is as strong as ever! ... that's what we are working with ...

I'd have no problem with elections every 2 years ...

Go Beavers

unsung wrote:

I'm working a ton of OT right now, I'm at 75hrs/week.

My next check will have enough federal taxes taken out alone that it would cover two of my mortgage payments. Generally I don't work these amount of hours so it's a lot at once but it's too much.

So it's too much based on what you can buy with the amount withheld, not based on what the percentage is of your gross income?

Gern Blansten

unsung wrote:

I'm working a ton of OT right now, I'm at 75hrs/week.

My next check will have enough federal taxes taken out alone that it would cover two of my mortgage payments. Generally I don't work these amount of hours so it's a lot at once but it's too much.

How much is your refund each year? Bonuses/OT get more withheld because the tax tables assume you are making that amount all the time.

Jason P

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm always curious what criteria people use to decide that they're overtaxed.

The best criteria is when citizens and businesses decide to move elsewhere because of taxes, even if the area they are moving to has worse weather, less ammenties, and is less scenic.

Jason P

The consumption tax method seems to be working in the state of Washington and eight other states.

unsung

Gern Blansten wrote:

unsung wrote:

I'm working a ton of OT right now, I'm at 75hrs/week.

My next check will have enough federal taxes taken out alone that it would cover two of my mortgage payments. Generally I don't work these amount of hours so it's a lot at once but it's too much.

How much is your refund each year? Bonuses/OT get more withheld because the tax tables assume you are making that amount all the time.

I usually owe.

Gern Blansten

unsung wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

unsung wrote:

I'm working a ton of OT right now, I'm at 75hrs/week.

My next check will have enough federal taxes taken out alone that it would cover two of my mortgage payments. Generally I don't work these amount of hours so it's a lot at once but it's too much.

How much is your refund each year? Bonuses/OT get more withheld because the tax tables assume you are making that amount all the time.

I usually owe.

So if your withholding takes care of two mortgage payments and you still owe, your net pay must take care of several months of mortgage payments.