Ticketing Brain Storm
Savage Tongue
Posts: 580
I know this is a tune that plays here a lot but I've been thinking about the whole ticketing concept. I've read many posts, opinions and articles on the topic and more specifically involving Pearl Jam. I don't have all the information or answers but I thought maybe we could explore ideas in an open brain storm and see what we can harvest.
After 23 years you would have to think the band & Ten Club know the game and try to do the best they can for themselves and the fans but with all the issues and complaints there would seem like there are still ideas to be explored. I think Ten Club does pretty well for it's fans when it comes to securing tickets for club members but why should they have to beg and claw for an allocation of tickets from Ticketmaster? It should be the other way around.
Obviously Ticketmaster is the ugly beast in the situation but to what degree is the relationship between them and PJ for touring? I really believe it's a leash situation with the collar around the venues and artist since TM works as an agent to sell the tix for the promoter which is usually LiveNation which happens to be part of TM. Then you find that TM has exclusivity contracts with most major venues that prevent other ticketing agencies from selling for that place. How is this allowed?
Flash back 20 years ago, Pearl Jam took on Ticketmaster for their unfair fee's and monopolistic practices and lost. Since then TM has gotten even larger and wrapped more tentacles around the concert industry strangling out fair practices with things like acquiring the largest concert promoter and secondary ticket reselling markets and the fascist exclusivity contacts. And now here we are buying PJ tix through TM. Is the milk from TM's teet really that sweet or is it just the only drink around? I know the battle last time around was futile and the independent tour PJ had in response was disastrous but that was a different time. PJ is older, wiser, more experienced and dare I say more respected now, their ticket selling ability cannot be denied. What about a second round vs TM? It is a different world now and with the internet, grassroots campaigns can gain more momentum faster and maybe they would be more successful in at least limiting TM's stranglehold. The exclusivity thing is what bothers me the most, that's what makes most acts have to go with TM whether they like it or not, I'd love to see that challenged.
On top of that I wonder about the feasibility of Pearl Jam joining up with other artists to found an artist run, fair practice ticketing/promoting agency to compete with TM/LN? I really like the pure concept of this. The biggest hurdle to this idea is the aforementioned exclusivity contacts but to partially get around that they could also acquire or at least support struggling venues and try and turn those places around.
Every year is gets more nauseating trying to get tickets to shows and TM's snowballing doesn't seem to be slowing anytime soon... Something has to be done... or is it too late and are we relegated to accepting TM growing pile of shit as the way it is forever?
After 23 years you would have to think the band & Ten Club know the game and try to do the best they can for themselves and the fans but with all the issues and complaints there would seem like there are still ideas to be explored. I think Ten Club does pretty well for it's fans when it comes to securing tickets for club members but why should they have to beg and claw for an allocation of tickets from Ticketmaster? It should be the other way around.
Obviously Ticketmaster is the ugly beast in the situation but to what degree is the relationship between them and PJ for touring? I really believe it's a leash situation with the collar around the venues and artist since TM works as an agent to sell the tix for the promoter which is usually LiveNation which happens to be part of TM. Then you find that TM has exclusivity contracts with most major venues that prevent other ticketing agencies from selling for that place. How is this allowed?
Flash back 20 years ago, Pearl Jam took on Ticketmaster for their unfair fee's and monopolistic practices and lost. Since then TM has gotten even larger and wrapped more tentacles around the concert industry strangling out fair practices with things like acquiring the largest concert promoter and secondary ticket reselling markets and the fascist exclusivity contacts. And now here we are buying PJ tix through TM. Is the milk from TM's teet really that sweet or is it just the only drink around? I know the battle last time around was futile and the independent tour PJ had in response was disastrous but that was a different time. PJ is older, wiser, more experienced and dare I say more respected now, their ticket selling ability cannot be denied. What about a second round vs TM? It is a different world now and with the internet, grassroots campaigns can gain more momentum faster and maybe they would be more successful in at least limiting TM's stranglehold. The exclusivity thing is what bothers me the most, that's what makes most acts have to go with TM whether they like it or not, I'd love to see that challenged.
On top of that I wonder about the feasibility of Pearl Jam joining up with other artists to found an artist run, fair practice ticketing/promoting agency to compete with TM/LN? I really like the pure concept of this. The biggest hurdle to this idea is the aforementioned exclusivity contacts but to partially get around that they could also acquire or at least support struggling venues and try and turn those places around.
Every year is gets more nauseating trying to get tickets to shows and TM's snowballing doesn't seem to be slowing anytime soon... Something has to be done... or is it too late and are we relegated to accepting TM growing pile of shit as the way it is forever?
http://www.reverbnation.com/open_graph/song/1783688
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Ticketmaster is bad.
Why does Pearl Jam work with Ticketmaster?
Is it time for "PJ vs. TM Round 2"?
Could PJ form or join a coalition of artists to found a fair ticketing/promoting agency?
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."
Why does PJ have to beg TM for tickets? Because TM has exclusive rights to distribute tickets for all the major venues. TM holds all the cards. Where are Pearl Jam going to play if they don't play ball? In the regions that Ticketmaster/Livenation operate they have exclusive rights to handle ticketing in the majority (if not all) of the arena/stadium sized venues.
There is no where else to play. There's no bluff to call. You can't bluff ticketmaster. If you don't give us more tickets we'll go place somewhere else! There is no where else to play.
PJ doesn't even tour that much. So compared to other artists financially speaking, they don't bring in nearly as many dollars. Once again limited leverage.
It's all in TM's favour. Why do people seem to time and time again severely underestimate the stranglehold ticketmaster has on the concert industry?
This is also why it would be hard to start competition. TM is already entrenched. That have exclusivity agreements with the venues. What venues would a new agency book for? I guess you could try and negotiate with arenas when there contracts with TM run out. I imagine it would cost a small fortune. TM must pay some pretty large kickbacks to the arenas for the right to be exclusive. I can't see PJ, a band who's touring has diminished in recent years, to take up a full time crusade like that, when the odds of success are slim to remote.
Those were roughly my points and the fact that TM is such an immovable beast should be all the more reason to question it and not be complacent. The exclusivity thing is such a repugnant business practice I can't believe it is allowed, it's not even capitalism when there are no other options. I understand founding a TM competitor would be a hugely expensive venture and thats why I figured it would be a coalition of artists. Acts that tour and have big followings like U2, Bruce, Neil, DMB, Phish as examples. Then if they were to challenge TM in court again they could use the exclusivity deals as an example of anti-competitive practices.
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."
The best way to deal with it is ti deal with it. You cannot go anywhere else because TicketMaster has exclusive access to the ticketing of almost all of the venues. There are some small places that you can deal with, but it is difficult and expensive.
Just do what most people do... factor in the ACTUAL cost of the ticket (Ticket plus added fees), rather than just the TicketMaster posted ticket price. That is the true cost for the seat.
Hail, Hail!!!
So the bullshit reality is Ticketmaster is too large to fight so spread your cheeks and take your seats.
That doesn't settle well with me. It is this kind of thinking and lack of oversight that is wrong with the world today. Complacency and feeling small have let things go too far. Pearl Jam had the right idea the first time around suing TM but why stop just because TM won that battle? Take what you learned build a stronger offense and continue this war because us civilians are getting raked over.
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."
1. Sell one show at a time so the site doesn't crash as easily.
2. If they still want to value seniority, divide members into blocks by member number stagger the sale times for those blocks.
I'm not a fan of the lottery system. Anybody who has ever heard of PJ and has a membership puts in. I had so many empty seats and uninterested people around me at Wrigley and we were in the best reserved seating section possible (Sec. B, thank you 10C). It made me feel really bad for all the fans who would have killed for those seats.
Don't put tickets in the hands of TicketMaster under any circumstances though. TM and Tickets.com are the biggest scalpers out there. Did you notice that there was no ticket drop for Wrigley?
Posters for Sale: http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/117469/posters-for-sale
T-Shirts for Sale: http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/149289/pj-t-shirt-trade-or-sale
The 'bullshit' reality isn't bullshit... it is REALITY.
You do the same things with everything else. What about banking? Or how about buying gasoline? Figure out what it would take to startup your own Global Oil Cartel.
The alternative to TicketMaster... Buy the existing venues and break the contracts with TicketMaster and go it on your own or build new independent venues across America and refuse to deal with TicketMaster.
or.. Pearl Jam can play High School auditoriums and you can drive over to the school an purchase a ticket at the Student Store.
Realistic?
...
Welcome to America. The Senate hearing sided with corporate America, rather than the little guy. Game over.
It goes further... the Citizens United thing made the matters worse by saying that corporations are on equal footing with individuals and can level their massive financial reources against us.
Had Ameicans paid closer attention to what was going on in the past 20 years, we wouldn't be in this place.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with most of these awful truths but at least with gas and banks there are options and even then it is still pretty bad. Imagine if there was only 1 company that sold gas or only 1 option for a bank...
What exactly is the purpose of a supermassive ticketing agency anyway? (Forgetting about the exclusivity contracts for a min) Couldn't bands/promoters/venues issue tickets on their own? Why bring in a third party corporation to sell the tickets at a mark up from face value when it is because of the artist that they are even being sold?
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."
Ever been to an intersection where there are more than one gas station on the corners? Notice how the prices are basically the same?
Going to Chevron or Shell is the same as going to TicketMaster or Live Nation... gas stations have fixed prices set by the oil companies (which operate as one unit) as does TicketMaster (who is the same as Live Nation).
...
And no... bands cannot issue their own tickets. The venues have contracts with TicketMaster granting them exclusive access to ticket sales. It was like that in 1994 and it has gotten a lot worse. Pearl Jam tried using venues without contractual ties to TicketMaster and it was extremly difficult. In the Los Angeles Area alone, which has several large arenas... all of whom have contracts with TicketMaster. If you want to play Los Angeles without TicketMaster... you would end up at the First Unitarian Church off of Vermont Avenue.. which seats about 500, capacity. That would be a great show... for those 500 people.
Sorry... but, this is America. Corporations are people... just like you and me. Just ask our Supreme Court.
Hail, Hail!!!
They did try. It went beyond testifying in congress. I think they briefly touch on it in pj20? The Vitalogy tour. This was in 1995 (so nearly 20 years ago). In protest to the fees Pearl Jam ran a tour on non-tm venues. They were hard to find. When they did there less managed venues. IE Pearl Jam had to organize the whole thing on their own (not just show up and play). I think that tour in '95 was extremely difficult and time consuming to pull off and that was nearly 20 years ago. Eddie got sick and the tour fell apart.
I don't even know how you would try and compete. You could start your company, say your a ticketing agency, but what venues can you book tickets in? It's all about the venues. TM has them locked down. PJ barely pulled it off in '95, I don't think the Vitalogy tour would be possible in this day and age.
This is why voting and paying attention matters... It affects our PJ tickets!
On another note I did read that MLB is splitting ties with TM. MLB bought ticketmaster rival tickets.com and are phasing out their existing contracts with TM. So there are always the ballparks to play in as an alternative...
Still it sets a precedence that TM isn't invincible.
Back to the idea of an artist coalition run ticketing agency lets call it "Artistix", it's nothing that would be overnight but if someone gets the ball rolling then maybe they could edge in when current TM contracts with venues expire. Just a concept but what if they negotiate with some venues to allow "Artistix" to sell concert tix but allow TM to vend other events? A compromise to make it more realistic? Perhaps "Artistix" could offer some percentage incentives for the venue to compete with the $$$ incentive's TM gives? I don't know details of how any of this would work but idea's gotta start somewhere.
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."
^this.
I get so irate :evil:
It's TM flaunting their power.
And they make it seem like they are trying to prevent "bots" from acquiring tickets by making you do captchas every time you refresh but it's a psychological ploy to eat time and make you think you missed the good tix while their own "bots" shuttle the money tickets over to ticketmaster owned 3rd party reselling sites.
I remember reading a post written by Trent Reznor a while ago where he explains from an artist standpoint what the deal is. Here is the link to that.
http://forum.nin.com/bb/read.php?59,548515
Would be nice if one of the guys wrote a post like that to us...
"Come take my hand, and let yourself rely.
Don't hold your breath, don't close your eyes.
I've learned to breath and I've learned to fly.
I've learned to see and I know I'm going higher."