Anyone Want to do "Fantasy League" For the Tour?

PJ_Soul

rr165892 wrote:

FYI-I believe they played Star Spangled Banner last night.In Cameron conf PJSoul should get points but none listed.

Yeah, that would be because Sea used a "/" and made that a tag as well, so it supposedly doesn't count. So same situation as Chloe/Crown of Thorns. I haven't heard the Star spangled banner part yet. Was the entire thing played? if so, I would like to appeal the tag decision. It isn't fair at all to suddenly call a song a tag just because of the way it's written in the fan view thread even though the whole song is played. The song choice list we were all using listed both the star spangled banner and the crown of thorns as songs that are played separately, with a times played number beside them, and as far as I know a song played in its entirety cannot be called a tag no matter how Sea wrote it down. So can someone tell me if the whole star spangled banner was played? if so, that's simply not a tag, and if the decision is made that it and crown of thorns are tags just because of a "/" then we were duped during the song selection IMO. I know that two people tried to pick interstellar overdrive during the draft, and they were both allowed to withdraw their choices because they were reminded that it is always a tag. But everyone understood that crown of thorns and the star spangled banner are not and never were considered tags, no matter how it's presented in the fan view (of course if the star spangled banner last night really was a tag, I.e., only played partially and/or bits of it were thrown in throughout YLB, then I will accept it graciously). So.... who's the judge and jury here? Maybe when there is an appeal, the conference involved should hold a vote, results final.

FrankieG

PJ_Soul wrote:

rr165892 wrote:

FYI-I believe they played Star Spangled Banner last night.In Cameron conf PJSoul should get points but none listed.

Yeah, that would be because Sea used a "/" and made that a tag as well, so it supposedly doesn't count. So same situation as Chloe/Crown of Thorns. I haven't heard the Star spangled banner part yet. Was the entire thing played? if so, I would like to appeal the tag decision. It isn't fair at all to suddenly call a song a tag just because of the way it's written in the fan view thread even though the whole song is played. The song choice list we were all using listed both the star spangled banner and the crown of thorns as songs that are played separately, with a times played number beside them, and as far as I know a song played in its entirety cannot be called a tag no matter how Sea wrote it down. So can someone tell me if the whole star spangled banner was played? if so, that's simply not a tag, and if the decision is made that it and crown of thorns are tags just because of a "/" then we were duped during the song selection IMO. I know that two people tried to pick interstellar overdrive during the draft, and they were both allowed to withdraw their choices because they were reminded that it is always a tag. But everyone understood that crown of thorns and the star spangled banner are not and never were considered tags, no matter how it's presented in the fan view (of course if the star spangled banner last night really was a tag, I.e., only played partially and/or bits of it were thrown in throughout YLB, then I will accept it graciously). So.... who's the judge and jury here? Maybe when there is an appeal, the conference involved should hold a vote, results final.

I was having a tough time with this trying to figure out what to do. Couldn't think of a fair way to decide. I like the idea of having the conference vote.

As a person who attended BK2, I can tell you that they played YLB, and after the singing ended, mike went into the outro, then broke out into the Star Spangled Banner, then finished with 1 or 2 bars/lines of YLB.

My viewpoint: The entire song was played, unlike Save it for later of We Belong together where only the chorus was played, which is a pro to count it as a song and not a tag. But, it was encapsulated in YLB by Mike playing the couple bars afterword, which makes it a tag and not the song.

It can be considered either or, for various reasons. The conference involved should decide.

rr165892

My vote is give the points.If you let her draft the song and they played it then points should be awarded.i mean how did u really think SSB would be played anyway?

FrankieG

Updated the score sheet to add more functionality.

Now showing "Max Points" tally = Best Case scenario for your team for the rest of the tour.

Also added a 2nd bar graph showing your current score, Min score, and Max Score.

Min score is worst case scenario for your team, you are guaranteed that many points.
Max Score is best case scenario, if they play all of your songs once and then not any more plays than they currently have.

Also, "Stats" sheet shows a rank of the songs played with respect to how many times they are played.
The other shows songs played per album.

jethrojam420

FrankieG wrote:

Updated the score sheet to add more functionality.

Now showing "Max Points" tally = Best Case scenario for your team for the rest of the tour.

Also added a 2nd bar graph showing your current score, Min score, and Max Score.

Min score is worst case scenario for your team, you are guaranteed that many points.
Max Score is best case scenario, if they play all of your songs once and then not any more plays than they currently have.

Also, "Stats" sheet shows a rank of the songs played with respect to how many times they are played.
The other shows songs played per album.

When you apply to work at google, put 10c as a reference. I think they should hire you....

MayDay10

rr165892 wrote:

My vote is give the points.If you let her draft the song and they played it then points should be awarded.i mean how did u really think SSB would be played anyway?

I believe it was asked somewhere in the emails for a few conferences. Everyone pretty much agreed it should be 2 different songs.
I dont think anyone took both, correct, so it wasnt exploited?

Also, I saw SSB was chosen in the last round. I assumed everyone was cool with it and it was obvious it is a "tag" to TL, but it is the complete song, so I would think it counts.

But if necessary, we can have a conference by conference vote and figure out something fair.

eeriepadave

I ain't winning this if they keep playing Yellow Moon just about every night :fp:

jethrojam420

MayDay10 wrote:

rr165892 wrote:

My vote is give the points.If you let her draft the song and they played it then points should be awarded.i mean how did u really think SSB would be played anyway?

I believe it was asked somewhere in the emails for a few conferences. Everyone pretty much agreed it should be 2 different songs.
I dont think anyone took both, correct, so it wasnt exploited?

Also, I saw SSB was chosen in the last round. I assumed everyone was cool with it and it was obvious it is a "tag" to TL, but it is the complete song, so I would think it counts.

But if necessary, we can have a conference by conference vote and figure out something fair.

i thought that if it was written as a tag by sea it was a tag. whatever sea writes, is what it is, which the only asterisk being if there is a glaring misprint like daughter instead of jeremy. I am ok with whatever you decide mayday, but for the record - I did draft according to that information.

PJ_Soul

jethrojam420 wrote:

MayDay10 wrote:

rr165892 wrote:

My vote is give the points.If you let her draft the song and they played it then points should be awarded.i mean how did u really think SSB would be played anyway?

I believe it was asked somewhere in the emails for a few conferences. Everyone pretty much agreed it should be 2 different songs.
I dont think anyone took both, correct, so it wasnt exploited?

Also, I saw SSB was chosen in the last round. I assumed everyone was cool with it and it was obvious it is a "tag" to TL, but it is the complete song, so I would think it counts.

But if necessary, we can have a conference by conference vote and figure out something fair.

i thought that if it was written as a tag by sea it was a tag. whatever sea writes, is what it is, which the only asterisk being if there is a glaring misprint like daughter instead of jeremy. I am ok with whatever you decide mayday, but for the record - I did draft according to that information.

I'm just not sure that I can accept that a song played in full can be called a tag..... does it say somewhere that if there is a "/" it means it's a tag? What's the definition of a tag? I wouldn't have ever imagined that it would be a song played in full.... obviously, if I or anyone else in my conference thought that the star spangled banner (or crown of thorns, for anyone who chose that) played in its entirety could still be a tag, I never would have picked it, and my conference would have said something as well... :think: Maybe we should ask Sea if 10c considers COT and SSB a tag!

FrankieG

jethrojam420 wrote:

FrankieG wrote:

Updated the score sheet to add more functionality.

Now showing "Max Points" tally = Best Case scenario for your team for the rest of the tour.

Also added a 2nd bar graph showing your current score, Min score, and Max Score.

Min score is worst case scenario for your team, you are guaranteed that many points.
Max Score is best case scenario, if they play all of your songs once and then not any more plays than they currently have.

Also, "Stats" sheet shows a rank of the songs played with respect to how many times they are played.
The other shows songs played per album.

When you apply to work at google, put 10c as a reference. I think they should hire you....

Thanks, but this isn't that big of a deal. I did alot more complex excel sheets in college.
I do appreciate the kind words tho!

FrankieG

With regards to the "/" question.

Has "Lukin/Not For You" ever been written in the fanview thread? If it has then SSB is definitely a stand-alone song.

jethrojam420

here is an email we discussed. If i missed any email addresses lemme know so i can delete them upon edit and sorry



That has basically been the ruling in the other conferences. Its not really listed as a tag...


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

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Original message

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From
Subject: Re: Ament Conference


I am on the side that it should count if it is written as its own song on the setlist. If it is like the example given in the previous links, it should count.


On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 5:48 PM, wrote:

Exactly. That should not count as a tag.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 1, 2013, at 6:46 PM, J wrote:

> Like this:
>
> http://pearljamsetlists.tumblr.com/post ... llapalooza
>
>
> From:
> Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 6:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Ament Conference
>
> Well wasted reprise is an actual song on an album so to me that is apples and oranges. I just feel as though if it has its own line in the black and white set list than it is its own song. But if there is 2 songs with a slash such as daughter/another brick it doesnt
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 1, 2013, at 6:26 PM, J> wrote:
>
>> Tags are usually improved but Interstellar Overdrive is always written into the set list. I think it carries the same weight as "Wasted Reprise." They list it separately from Corduroy in the set lists and it's been played 43 times.
>>
>> http://pearljam.com/setlists/1077/all/2 ... _album_id=
>>
>> I'll go with whatever the group decides but I'm cool with letting it count as we let Wasted Reprise count.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: B
>> Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 11:19 AM
>> Subject: Re: Ament Conference
>>
>> Yes tags do not count and it is whatever sea decides it is on the board unless there is an agreeable glaring differance
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 1, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Rwrote:
>>
>>> People in the other conferences chose it before we could really hash it out
>>> On Sep 1, 2013 11:03 AM, "Ry> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think Ryan set it up so the whole song would need to be played for it to count. Should be something to think about because it usually seems to be a tag before Corduroy, right?
>>>
>>> From: B
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 7:00 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Ament Conference
>>>
>>> If he can change it before the next person goes then why not? However, maybe he is expecting it to be played without a tag? I was never one to want to ask someone to change their thought process so i would say just whatever Peter wants is cool by me
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 1, 2013, at 9:25 AM, E wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does Insterstellar Overdrive count as a song, isn't that one like 16minutes long or something and PJ has only sort of "tagged" the intro of it before Corduroy and tagges were not to give points. (Not an expert on Pink Floyd so might be wrong...) Just wondering

vant0037

I think it was decided that the "Fan View" thread, how the songs are listed, will be the ultimate rule on what counts. If it gets listed as a song, with it's own individual number or "track listing," then it counts. If it's listed in the comments, it doesn't count.

There's really no unarbitrary way to decide what counts as "played," and going with what Kat/Sea list in the Fan View seems to be the most fair. I can envision a DC 08' moment when the band started "Evacuation" and fucked it up less than half-way through. Was it played?

If it's listed in the Fan View thread, started by Kat/Sea, with it's own individual number on the set list (NOT in the notes), then I say it gets points. For example "32. Yellow Ledbetter, 33. Star Spangled Banner" would count, but "32. Yellow Ledbetter (Mike goes into Star Spangled Banner during end of song)" would not.

I think a bright line rule like that is the only way to avoid these arguments.

FrankieG

Found a video of the YLB/SSB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnBQjPddrHk

I apologize for reporting it wrong. No YLB was played after SSB. YLB was played in its entirety, and then SSB was played in its entirety.

Don't know if this helps/changes things..

PJ_Soul

FrankieG wrote:

Found a video of the YLB/SSB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnBQjPddrHk

I apologize for reporting it wrong. No YLB was played after SSB. YLB was played in its entirety, and then SSB was played in its entirety.

Don't know if this helps/changes things..

This is admittedly becoming awkward for me to discuss, since I obviously have to be considered as biased, but I will still just say that I picked that song with the exact expectation that it would be played the way it was and picked it because that's my definition of the SSB being played at the show and what would get me points.

I also support CD/COT and Wasted Reprise/Life Wasted being two separate songs as well.... just because, well, we all just logically know that they are all individual songs.

teeman

PJ_Soul wrote:

FrankieG wrote:

Found a video of the YLB/SSB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnBQjPddrHk

I apologize for reporting it wrong. No YLB was played after SSB. YLB was played in its entirety, and then SSB was played in its entirety.

Don't know if this helps/changes things..

This is admittedly becoming awkward for me to discuss, since I obviously have to be considered as biased, but I will still just say that I picked that song with the exact expectation that it would be played the way it was and picked it because that's my definition of the SSB being played at the show and what would get me points.

I also support CD/COT and Wasted Reprise/Life Wasted being two separate songs as well.... just because, well, we all just logically know that they are all individual songs.

Yea regardless of slash or no slash, they played SSB in its entirety last night, followed by no YL. Points should be awarded, and really this is the only way it's logically going to be played.

iisee

I think SSB should get the points as it was played in its entirety. Interstellar Overdrive is more interesting to me...particularly since I "own" it in the Goassard conference. It is in fact over 15 minutes long as originally played by Pink Floyd. Pearl Jam has never played this song as written/performed by Pink Floyd. My personal expectation when I selected this song was that if played, it would be in abbreviated version (as usual) probably as an opener to Courduroy. Will I get the points in that case, or does it have to be 15 minutes long?

vant0037

iisee wrote:

I think SSB should get the points as it was played in its entirety. Interstellar Overdrive is more interesting to me...particularly since I "own" it in the Goassard conference. It is in fact over 15 minutes long as originally played by Pink Floyd. Pearl Jam has never played this song as written/performed by Pink Floyd. My personal expectation when I selected this song was that if played, it would be in abbreviated version (as usual) probably as an opener to Courduroy. Will I get the points in that case, or does it have to be 15 minutes long?

See but these two situations are the casualties, not the cause, of the conference rules about the Fan View threads being the ultimate judge of what has been "played." If we resort to fan recollections at shows or unofficial relay threads, we're quickly going to run into issues. For instance, I've watched unofficial relay threads get updated incorrectly twice on this tour (later corrected), meanwhile, scores for the fantasy league are being updated on that information.

We have to have a final "tally" for each show, and unless we're willing to wait until the band updates the "past tour" section (usually a few days after the show), we have to go to the next best "official tally," which would be the fan-view threads posted by Kat/Sea. Within those, we have to use the official numbering and NOT the notes for each song. If a song is listed in the notes but not given its own set number, it should not count, because there could be (and have been) situations where its unclear if a song is "played."

I think the Gossard conference is fairly clear on this issue, but I would recommend it for other conferences too. Fan-view threads - started by Kat/Sea - are the ultimate tallies for each show, and a song is "played" if it is listed with its own set number (i.e. "1. Pendulum, 2. Corduroy etc"). Because of the fluid nature of a performance, that's the most unarbitrary method we can turn to.

FrankieG

vant0037 wrote:

For instance, I've watched unofficial relay threads get updated incorrectly twice on this tour (later corrected), meanwhile, scores for the fantasy league are being updated on that information.

:oops: Was that my setlist thread?
Which songs in the scoresheet need to be corrected?

PJ_Soul

vant0037 wrote:

iisee wrote:

I think SSB should get the points as it was played in its entirety. Interstellar Overdrive is more interesting to me...particularly since I "own" it in the Goassard conference. It is in fact over 15 minutes long as originally played by Pink Floyd. Pearl Jam has never played this song as written/performed by Pink Floyd. My personal expectation when I selected this song was that if played, it would be in abbreviated version (as usual) probably as an opener to Courduroy. Will I get the points in that case, or does it have to be 15 minutes long?

See but these two situations are the casualties, not the cause, of the conference rules about the Fan View threads being the ultimate judge of what has been "played." If we resort to fan recollections at shows or unofficial relay threads, we're quickly going to run into issues. For instance, I've watched unofficial relay threads get updated incorrectly twice on this tour (later corrected), meanwhile, scores for the fantasy league are being updated on that information.

We have to have a final "tally" for each show, and unless we're willing to wait until the band updates the "past tour" section (usually a few days after the show), we have to go to the next best "official tally," which would be the fan-view threads posted by Kat/Sea. Within those, we have to use the official numbering and NOT the notes for each song. If a song is listed in the notes but not given its own set number, it should not count, because there could be (and have been) situations where its unclear if a song is "played."

I think the Gossard conference is fairly clear on this issue, but I would recommend it for other conferences too. Fan-view threads - started by Kat/Sea - are the ultimate tallies for each show, and a song is "played" if it is listed with its own set number (i.e. "1. Pendulum, 2. Corduroy etc"). Because of the fluid nature of a performance, that's the most unarbitrary method we can turn to.

Well I'd like to appeal because I feel that it's really unfair that I chose SSB is good faith, and am getting screwed out of 26 points IMO, and it sounds like that's because of some conversation that I had nothing to do with. I think this all shows that, because this is the first time doing the draft, some of the rules don't work, and the definition of a tag was never actually worked out.... I'm not happy that one of my picks was very clearly played NOT as a tag, yet I'm not getting credit for it. How about a vote within the conference affected? I obviously can't initiate that, but if someone else could, that would be cool.

rr165892

This is stupid.This is a fun thing we are doing here.Lighten up rule purests.It was played,it counts.done deal.
What were you expecting Ed to sing along with it.
PJ you get the points and I will back you if we vote as a conf.Each conf should have its own say(like letting peeps go back after draft to change to allow LB songs).
And it is just down right unamerican to not allow it.

PJ_Soul

rr165892 wrote:

This is stupid.This is a fun thing we are doing here.Lighten up rule purests.It was played,it counts.done deal.
What were you expecting Ed to sing along with it.
PJ you get the points and I will back you if we vote as a conf.Each conf should have its own say(like letting peeps go back after draft to change to allow LB songs).
And it is just down right unamerican to not allow it.

Thanks man! :wave:

FrankieG

rr165892 wrote:

This is stupid.This is a fun thing we are doing here.

Yeah I agree. First time we are doing it and obviously need to work out the bugs.

For the record, I marked it as 'played' on Sunday (Unless Mayday changed it back lol).

PJ_Soul

FrankieG wrote:

rr165892 wrote:

This is stupid.This is a fun thing we are doing here.

Yeah I agree. First time we are doing it and obviously need to work out the bugs.

For the record, I marked it as 'played' on Sunday (Unless Mayday changed it back lol).

Thanks to you as well (I don't think that the points are showing on the spreadsheet though... I think Mayday maybe did delete it?) ...... Sorry everyone. :oops: This has been awkward!

PJ51390

iisee wrote:

I think SSB should get the points as it was played in its entirety. Interstellar Overdrive is more interesting to me...particularly since I "own" it in the Goassard conference. It is in fact over 15 minutes long as originally played by Pink Floyd. Pearl Jam has never played this song as written/performed by Pink Floyd. My personal expectation when I selected this song was that if played, it would be in abbreviated version (as usual) probably as an opener to Courduroy. Will I get the points in that case, or does it have to be 15 minutes long?

Me too! I took it in Ament Conference!

PJ51390

PJ_Soul wrote:

FrankieG wrote:

rr165892 wrote:

This is stupid.This is a fun thing we are doing here.

Yeah I agree. First time we are doing it and obviously need to work out the bugs.

For the record, I marked it as 'played' on Sunday (Unless Mayday changed it back lol).

Thanks to you as well (I don't think that the points are showing on the spreadsheet though... I think Mayday maybe did delete it?) ...... Sorry everyone. :oops: This has been awkward!

Leave it to you to make it AWKWARD!

It's like asking a cabbie to go bowling!

PJ_Soul

PJ51390 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

FrankieG wrote:

Yeah I agree. First time we are doing it and obviously need to work out the bugs.

For the record, I marked it as 'played' on Sunday (Unless Mayday changed it back lol).

Thanks to you as well (I don't think that the points are showing on the spreadsheet though... I think Mayday maybe did delete it?) ...... Sorry everyone. :oops: This has been awkward!

Leave it to you to make it AWKWARD!

It's like asking a cabbie to go bowling!

Yeah, or jumping on a cab's hood!

MayDay10

I counted it.

SSB wasnt available on the list while plugging in the show results the other night....


I agree that the spirit of the thing, as well as the tag rule was to prevent snippets of WMA and Another Brick in the Wall II and SiFL, etc becoming hot selections and taking the place of real songs because all those would take up 1 or 2 rounds.
People should have said something during the drafts (which Int .Ovdrv. was discussed in nearly every conference). Its obvious SSB was not getting selected with a 1st encore stand alone song or anything.

If we had to start over, I would say no Int. Ovd, Chloe, or SSB, but I think it would be unfair to just declare those dead at this point and stick it to those who made those selections. I cant think of a 100% fair solution, honestly. Either count it or they can choose replacement(s)?

vant0037

MayDay10 wrote:

I counted it.

SSB wasnt available on the list while plugging in the show results the other night....


I agree that the spirit of the thing, as well as the tag rule was to prevent snippets of WMA and Another Brick in the Wall II and SiFL, etc becoming hot selections and taking the place of real songs because all those would take up 1 or 2 rounds.
People should have said something during the drafts (which Int .Ovdrv. was discussed in nearly every conference). Its obvious SSB was not getting selected with a 1st encore stand alone song or anything.

If we had to start over, I would say no Int. Ovd, Chloe, or SSB, but I think it would be unfair to just declare those dead at this point and stick it to those who made those selections. I cant think of a 100% fair solution, honestly. Either count it or they can choose replacement(s)?

I by no means meant to impose a rule on any other conference, just for clarification. I think Gossard decided that rule for itself a while ago, and then addressed it again in a post-draft email chain. I was just giving an example of why I think it's a good rule.

On that note, I still definitely believe that you'll need a bright-line rule about what counts as "played" or not. This isn't because Star-Spangled Banner wasn't played; it's because if we award points for things that are "played" but don't make it to the official setlists, it can only mean we're depending on eyewitness accounts, which, as we all know, can differ widely. And if we're depending on eyewitness accounts for scoring purposes, that's a slippery slope into scoring mayhem!

I say let each conference decide on it's rules or vote to resolve disputes.

PJ_Soul

vant0037 wrote:

MayDay10 wrote:

I counted it.

SSB wasnt available on the list while plugging in the show results the other night....


I agree that the spirit of the thing, as well as the tag rule was to prevent snippets of WMA and Another Brick in the Wall II and SiFL, etc becoming hot selections and taking the place of real songs because all those would take up 1 or 2 rounds.
People should have said something during the drafts (which Int .Ovdrv. was discussed in nearly every conference). Its obvious SSB was not getting selected with a 1st encore stand alone song or anything.

If we had to start over, I would say no Int. Ovd, Chloe, or SSB, but I think it would be unfair to just declare those dead at this point and stick it to those who made those selections. I cant think of a 100% fair solution, honestly. Either count it or they can choose replacement(s)?

I by no means meant to impose a rule on any other conference, just for clarification. I think Gossard decided that rule for itself a while ago, and then addressed it again in a post-draft email chain. I was just giving an example of why I think it's a good rule.

On that note, I still definitely believe that you'll need a bright-line rule about what counts as "played" or not. This isn't because Star-Spangled Banner wasn't played; it's because if we award points for things that are "played" but don't make it to the official setlists, it can only mean we're depending on eyewitness accounts, which, as we all know, can differ widely. And if we're depending on eyewitness accounts for scoring purposes, that's a slippery slope into scoring mayhem!

I say let each conference decide on it's rules or vote to resolve disputes.

Luckily, a 10C member has so far been recording each entire show by just filming the big screen, and they have turned out great! All are on YouTube. So no need to depend on eye witness accounts so far.... Anyway, I clearly think that a song played fully cannot be a tag, and that a tag is a partially played song that is tacked onto another song. At any rate, I also agree that these kinds of disputes are probably best handled within the conference in question.
Thanks for all input folks!