Kid Rock offers insight into the scalping industry

ldent42

moretonbayfig wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IbDFgEnNFY This is the Youtube version of the same video (not sure if it is also not available outside of Australia?) but basically says that tickets advertised on eBay etc do not account for the huge shortfall in tickets - the clip points to the fact that anti-scalping laws are being overturned in many states of the US because the laws don't work, that for stadium gigs usually only a small proportion of tickets go on sale (after removing those that go to fan clubs, promoters, Visa/Mastercard pre-sales, other sponsors, VIPs etc.) and when technology allows for several thousands of computers to be accessing Ticketmaster at the same time there will always be a shortfall. Essentially, it attributes a rise in ticket prices to these scarcity techniques of the major players like Ticketmaster for the rise in ticket prices, particularly in Australia (because we are subject to very high ticket prices plus price-gouging in the form of high fees for postage and handling and fees even for downloading and printing your own tickets).

Thank you so much for finding the Youtube and posting it. Is that like a regular nightly news segment? It was hilarious!
It does make sense that most of the tickets don't go on sale to the general public. But it doesn't mean we should have to compete for those with resellers. I guess they should require ticketmaster et all to disclose how many tickets are ACTUALLY being released in the general public sale.

moretonbayfig

duska3419 wrote:

moretonbayfig wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IbDFgEnNFY This is the Youtube version of the same video (not sure if it is also not available outside of Australia?) but basically says that tickets advertised on eBay etc do not account for the huge shortfall in tickets - the clip points to the fact that anti-scalping laws are being overturned in many states of the US because the laws don't work, that for stadium gigs usually only a small proportion of tickets go on sale (after removing those that go to fan clubs, promoters, Visa/Mastercard pre-sales, other sponsors, VIPs etc.) and when technology allows for several thousands of computers to be accessing Ticketmaster at the same time there will always be a shortfall. Essentially, it attributes a rise in ticket prices to these scarcity techniques of the major players like Ticketmaster for the rise in ticket prices, particularly in Australia (because we are subject to very high ticket prices plus price-gouging in the form of high fees for postage and handling and fees even for downloading and printing your own tickets).

Thank you so much for finding the Youtube and posting it. Is that like a regular nightly news segment? It was hilarious!
It does make sense that most of the tickets don't go on sale to the general public. But it doesn't mean we should have to compete for those with resellers. I guess they should require ticketmaster et all to disclose how many tickets are ACTUALLY being released in the general public sale.

It's a weekly consumer affairs/consumer rights program - very enlightening, and encourages consumers to know and practice their rights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoCAXrSH ... creen&NR=1

helplessdancer

I have a hard time understanding why PJ don't use paperless tickets for some sections, especially for a band that cares...or maybe they have lost sight somehow?

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"A small way that artists have been able to control scalping is through paperless tickets, which only allows the buyers of the tickets to use them at shows and are not allowed to resell them. Smith said paperless tickets, which launched five years ago, accounts for "about 1 percent" of the tickets at Ticketmaster.

"It hasn't grown necessarily as a percentage of the total tickets that we sell, but we certainly see more artists employing it," Smith said. "When it really first started, it was kind of looked at as a tool to use across the entire seats in the arena, but it's really become a tool for the best seats in the house. Increasingly we see artists using it very, very targeted for like the top 500 seats in the house or the top 1,000 seats."

Bruce Springsteen, Keith Urban, New Kids on the Block, Radiohead, Rascal Flatts, Selena Gomez, Muse, Miley Cryus, Iron Maiden, Atoms for Peace and Eric Church are among the acts using paperless tickets.

On his "Wrecking Ball World Tour" last year, Springsteen used paperless tickets for 20 percent of the seats, and Ticketmaster said its data showed that Springsteen's decision helped reduce scalping by 75 percent. (New York is the only state where Springsteen couldn't offer paperless tickets because the state does not allow nontransferable tickets)."

Grandmas Jam

very interesting article, thanks for the share

YourDirtisMyfood

Grandmas Jam wrote:

very interesting article, thanks for the share

no problem.

Rossum20

I agree with the paperless ticketing system. When I saw Radiohead in NJ last year, their lower bowl and GA tickets were paperless. I saw them at Roseland the year before in NYC and they forced everyone to pick up their tickets at will call and enter the venue. No rentry, no ticket exchanges.

For a band whose core principle for the first decade of their existence was to keep tickets in the hands of the true fans, it pisses me off they don't embrace this ticketing process. Of course it's not 100% perfect and many people who like moving and trading tickets for shows would end, but it's time for people to face the current realities of how out of control the scalping industry has become.

The idea that people should all come together and not buy tickets from scalpers is laughable. It's an unrealistic idea that will never happen. I'd love to see some of the proponents of this strategy sit outside a venue while PJ is playing because they wouldn't pay a cent over face.

Lost In Ohio

Zod wrote:

It's sort of why ticket prices have skyrocketed over the last 20 years as well. When you look at how many tickets get resold way over face value, you know they were undervalued. IE the band sells them for less then they are worth.

A lot of the teen pop performers probably undercharge on the thought that the 14-17 year-old crowd simply can't afford $500 for floor seats, so maybe they'll charge $70 for "good" seats. Unfortunately, a lot of these performers probably have side deals with stub hub and whatnot to funnel tickets in advance. Supply and demand drives prices up and these dads are then breaking the bank to take their two daughters and a few friends to a Miley Cyrus show.

"I simply don't understand...I was on there five minutes before, credit card in hand and I got shut out." Yup, dad of Miley Cyrus fan. It's because you don't have the programs the scalpers have to buy 500 tickets per person when there's an 8 ticket per person limit.

Lost In Ohio

Rossum20 wrote:

The idea that people should all come together and not buy tickets from scalpers is laughable. It's an unrealistic idea that will never happen. I'd love to see some of the proponents of this strategy sit outside a venue while PJ is playing because they wouldn't pay a cent over face.

They might get in for face, but they'd miss some of the show.

If the face is $85 and the scalper wants $300 for one of his many tickets on the morning of the show, he might get a little desperate and settle for $150 during the opening act. Opening act leaves the stage around 8:30 (say) and he might want $100 for any unsold amounts.

By the time 9:15 comes around and the first 4-5 songs have been played? Assuming there's any left, he might be willing to take a loss...after all, some money is better than unsold tickets, right? Besides, he's already made major profit on the stack he's already sold.

ACCBootlegGoddess

I've only bought from a scalper once that I can recall. I paid LESS than face. It was for a pre-season football game. Miami Dolphins/Buffalo Bills at the skydome here in Toronto. There were tix at the box office but Rogers was charging outragious prices for them. I had seen on craigslist and places that people were so desperate to unload tix that they were going for well below face on the secondary market.
My friend and I got $360 tix for $160. That was 11 rows from the field at about the 30 yard line. I thought I did good...and my Dolphins won!

I've had to dump a ticket a couple of times on them when I couldn't get rid of it for face or less to anyone and I had to get inside pronto. I hated doing it, but $10 is better than zero dollars. I did give a ticket away for free once. It was the Foo Fighters accoustic show. Couldn't get rid of it. Ended up giving it to a radio station intern who was giving stuff out on the street. She was soo excited. Made my night too - seeing someone so happy.

Someone earlier said to haggle them down if you are going that route.
I tried to get last minute tickets to Neil Young at Massey Hall - not the last time he was there, but the time before that...like 5-7 years ago. Anyways they only dropped 1 pair of tix at the box office. That's it. I was 7th in line.
The scalpers outside wanted $750 a pop. I was like forget that. They refused to budge, even after the show started. They ended up eating the tix rather than going down in price. I guess they made enough leading up to the show and that evening to make up for that shortfall.

There are so many shady deals, not just between artists and the scalpers, but the venues have deals with brokers too.
I know several Leafs season ticket holders that have deals with scalpers for their seats. It's laziness more than anything else. Sell to the scalper as they are guaranteed money then go through the effort of letting it be known they have a ticket and hoping someone wants it for face. Also selling to the scalpers helps them to get a deal for other events they want to go too. "you scratch my back..." kind of thing.

It sucks but thats why brokers thrive.

Lost In Ohio

ACCBootlegGoddess wrote:

I've only bought from a scalper once that I can recall. I paid LESS than face. It was for a pre-season football game. Miami Dolphins/Buffalo Bills at the skydome here in Toronto. There were tix at the box office but Rogers was charging outragious prices for them. I had seen on craigslist and places that people were so desperate to unload tix that they were going for well below face on the secondary market.
My friend and I got $360 tix for $160. That was 11 rows from the field at about the 30 yard line. I thought I did good...and my Dolphins won!

I've had to dump a ticket a couple of times on them when I couldn't get rid of it for face or less to anyone and I had to get inside pronto. I hated doing it, but $10 is better than zero dollars. I did give a ticket away for free once. It was the Foo Fighters accoustic show. Couldn't get rid of it. Ended up giving it to a radio station intern who was giving stuff out on the street. She was soo excited. Made my night too - seeing someone so happy.

Someone earlier said to haggle them down if you are going that route.
I tried to get last minute tickets to Neil Young at Massey Hall - not the last time he was there, but the time before that...like 5-7 years ago. Anyways they only dropped 1 pair of tix at the box office. That's it. I was 7th in line.
The scalpers outside wanted $750 a pop. I was like forget that. They refused to budge, even after the show started. They ended up eating the tix rather than going down in price. I guess they made enough leading up to the show and that evening to make up for that shortfall.

There are so many shady deals, not just between artists and the scalpers, but the venues have deals with brokers too.
I know several Leafs season ticket holders that have deals with scalpers for their seats. It's laziness more than anything else. Sell to the scalper as they are guaranteed money then go through the effort of letting it be known they have a ticket and hoping someone wants it for face. Also selling to the scalpers helps them to get a deal for other events they want to go too. "you scratch my back..." kind of thing.

It sucks but thats why brokers thrive.

It's the stories like the Foo Fighters ones that we need more of in this world. You give a ticket away to a real fan who is working for free... and you certainly made her night and maybe even her month.

The shady deals are what kills it. As far as Leafs season tickets, I'm sure if someone sold a few games at a premium, they'd easily make up what they spent on the entire season and only miss a few games they probably couldn't attend anyway.

There's a few guys down here who are well-known sports fans (the kind who dress crazy with the crazy costumes and wild hair and all that) who apparently know these scalpers on a first-name basis. They get a phone call from the scalper saying they have a front-row ticket...of course I'm sure they get a good deal while the regular fans pay extra for seats way up high. :evil:


Everyone makes out like fat cats while screwing the regular fans and the artists all play the "poor guy here, please don't steal our music" role while driving three Bentleys and two SUVs with two pools in their mansion.

Rossum20

Lost In Ohio wrote:

Rossum20 wrote:

The idea that people should all come together and not buy tickets from scalpers is laughable. It's an unrealistic idea that will never happen. I'd love to see some of the proponents of this strategy sit outside a venue while PJ is playing because they wouldn't pay a cent over face.

They might get in for face, but they'd miss some of the show.

If the face is $85 and the scalper wants $300 for one of his many tickets on the morning of the show, he might get a little desperate and settle for $150 during the opening act. Opening act leaves the stage around 8:30 (say) and he might want $100 for any unsold amounts.

By the time 9:15 comes around and the first 4-5 songs have been played? Assuming there's any left, he might be willing to take a loss...after all, some money is better than unsold tickets, right? Besides, he's already made major profit on the stack he's already sold.

Oh no doubt about it...I know in many cases if you are willing to wait, you can find tickets for less than face for some shows. That doesn't change the fact that the scaplers are, for the most part, still coming out on top - they wouldn't still be doing it otherwise. Furthermore, the idea that a realistic solution to today's scalping problem is for everyone to refuse to pay above face value is asinine. People want to get into these shows and there is still a solid possibility theyll get shut out if they don't pay above face. Fans alone cannot solve the scalping problem. If PJ tours to my area once a year, am I going to sit outside the stadium and refuse to pay $50-$100 more than face (as an example) for my one chance to see them that year? No, and most others wouldn't refuse either if they had their heart set on going.

It's up to the band to use the powers they have to help curb scalping. Paperless tickets would be a big step in the right direction.

ewokpelts

Kid Rock, of all people, is looking out for fans. Pearl Jam? they forgot who paid the bills a long time ago.

63schoefflin

ewokpelts wrote:

Kid Rock, of all people, is looking out for fans. Pearl Jam? they forgot who paid the bills a long time ago.

Pearl Jam charges cheaper prices than almost every one of their contemporaries. PJ, Bruce, Phish, and MMJ are an absolute steal considering how little you pay. Now the scalper prices is different... But hey, they don't set those prices.

My suggestion is do a damn full length tour so the aftermarket will drop to face or in that range.

ckravitz

63schoefflin wrote:

ewokpelts wrote:

Kid Rock, of all people, is looking out for fans. Pearl Jam? they forgot who paid the bills a long time ago.

Pearl Jam charges cheaper prices than almost every one of their contemporaries. PJ, Bruce, Phish, and MMJ are an absolute steal considering how little you pay. Now the scalper prices is different... But hey, they don't set those prices.

My suggestion is do a damn full length tour so the aftermarket will drop to face or in that range.

I think what he is saying, and btw I don't necessarily agree, is that while the face value of PJ tickets are low, if 65% of them are going directly to the resale market then the face value actually doesn't mean anything.

What I do believe is that artists in general will go a long way in endearing their fans with the more paperless tickets they offer.

But I'm A-OK with a full length PJ tour as well!!!

helplessdancer

ckravitz wrote:

...
What I do believe is that artists in general will go a long way in endearing their fans with the more paperless tickets they offer.
...

bingo!
especially for up close sections and in demand shows(nyc)...they should all be paperless
there is really no argument against it

ewokpelts

63schoefflin wrote:

ewokpelts wrote:

Kid Rock, of all people, is looking out for fans. Pearl Jam? they forgot who paid the bills a long time ago.

Pearl Jam charges cheaper prices than almost every one of their contemporaries. PJ, Bruce, Phish, and MMJ are an absolute steal considering how little you pay. Now the scalper prices is different... But hey, they don't set those prices.

My suggestion is do a damn full length tour so the aftermarket will drop to face or in that range.

Kid Rock: $20 tickets before fees. And no fees if you buy at a ticketmaster location inside wal-mart.
$4 beer.
$20 t-shirts.

Pearl Jam:
$75 tickets for arena shows.
Does not work with the venue to offer lower price beer/concessions.
Won't let you bring in a poster tube or pre-order posters.
Charges more than $20 for t-shirts.

PSUS2H

ewokpelts wrote:

63schoefflin wrote:

ewokpelts wrote:

Kid Rock, of all people, is looking out for fans. Pearl Jam? they forgot who paid the bills a long time ago.

Pearl Jam charges cheaper prices than almost every one of their contemporaries. PJ, Bruce, Phish, and MMJ are an absolute steal considering how little you pay. Now the scalper prices is different... But hey, they don't set those prices.

My suggestion is do a damn full length tour so the aftermarket will drop to face or in that range.

Kid Rock: $20 tickets before fees. And no fees if you buy at a ticketmaster location inside wal-mart.
$4 beer.
$20 t-shirts.

Pearl Jam:
$75 tickets for arena shows.
Does not work with the venue to offer lower price beer/concessions.
Won't let you bring in a poster tube or pre-order posters.
Charges more than $20 for t-shirts.

but you're compairing Kid Rock to Pearl Jam......it is almost impossible to work with venues on concession prices, they have contracts with Aramark (or other provider) that allows that provider to set the prices. The arena usually does not have a say, plus why would they want to discount prices at shows? They are running a business. The poster tube thing again is typically a building to building policy, sometimes the renter can ask if they can make exceptions but its not always allowed. T-shirts are expensive now.

I get what you're saying you'd like more acts to work hard to help the fans out and I am with you on that, but it is not as easy as it sounds.

ewokpelts

]both have major label debuts that sold over 10 million records.

he was able to reduce the costs by working with live nation, who owns and operates the venues his 2013 tour is in.

KL40564

I think the comparison's are valid. PJ gets made credit for taking on the issue 20 years ago, and all the way to congress. however, since then, I have not seen value. The last show I saw, and it was almost ten years ago, was $100 seats.

What Kid Rock is doing is amazing. That he got involved in concessions is super brilliant. I have never heard of an artist pull that off. Aramark is a powerful entity, so that was no easy negotiation.

As for Kid Rock, here is how much I love his business plan and commitment. I bought 2 tix to the Denver show and I may have to work. It's ok. It is worth $50 to me to see his business model succeed. I want him to be wildly successful in this endeavor, so that everyone takes a look and re-evaluates their business model. Concerts aren't seeing my money anymore. I used to go monthly, now I go about once a year. It has just gotten too expensive. I make sure to make it to Red Rocks every summer for a show, and that's about it.

As for scalping, I have bought many or most of my seats below face value from those weasels. After the first song is played, those $200 golden tickets are just pieces of paper. So, they get very desperate as the show goes closer. Here is a tip, and I have been to hundreds (maybe thousands) of shows. Approach the scalper and tell him you'll pay $40 for the ticket. He will laugh you off. Then, just say "cool, I understand you gotta make your money. I will be back here in 30 minutes. Consider my offer if you have any tickets left". Works every time. That paper that was worth hundreds is now only worth about $10. By mid set, that paper will be useless.

Btw, how to identify scalpers. They are ones with the signs. ANYTIME you see a guy with a sign that says 'need tickets', he is a scalper. Amusingly, the other side of the sign usually says 'got tickets for sale'.

Pearl Jam has done great stuff in this arena, which (like their live distribution system) has been well copied - which is will call only. it is the only way to stop scalpers. The problem is, it is a pain in the ass for everyone involved. But, it works.

demetrios

https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/1906831242336559372?t=IhQN1Iti8YFsVjVWGVAxCg&s=19