Take away the celebrity bullshit and look at this from our normal every day point of view...surely a brave decision given her family history and chances of contracting this most destructive and hellish of diseases. Most of us, if female, would surely try and reduce our chances of contraction, if possible.
And as a side note; guys, should we be commenting on what is clearly a feminine issue, even though I hypocritically just have.
I asked the question because I didn't know when women had to worry about it (or the cost). Not to comment on or criticize her decision.
This was a personal quote from a personal point of view and was in no way meant as an attack on your original post...I'm just joining in as someone who was moved by the young ladies decision...but I am glad to see you are following up your post as concerned observer. I welcomed your post the moment I saw it on the main page, and I feel this is something important that should be discussed at length here, on this most open and engaging of forums. I have enjoyed your posts in the past and look forward to reading and engaging with in the future.
I know a woman who is a breast cancer survivor who did a thorough study comparing American's diet with the Japanese which shows that the Japanese consume far less cow's milk than Americans do and their rate of breast cancer is much lower. Might be worth considering ladies- guys too (no kidding).
Or at least consider raw milk.
But that's illegal in most states :fp:
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I think Angelina is incredibly brave to go through this. She's obviously a smart woman who could see that the potential risk of dying from this disease out weighed the need for her breasts to define herself as a woman. Good for her, a courageous and possibly life saving decision.
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So are women supposed to begin the mammograms at 40? Is that a doctor recomendation or an insurance company mandate?
Well if you listen to the news, say the Today Show, they go back and forth on the recommend age so much, you'd be better off guessing. But insurance co wouldn't cover anything before 40, despite family history.
How much does a mammogram cost?
My medical group charged my insurance company 375.00.
yes, very brave
her mother died at 56 and she wants to be around for her children
and yes, the whole thing is far more costly than the average woman could afford
And as a side note; guys, should we be commenting on what is clearly a feminine issue, even though I hypocritically just have.
To the guys from a woman (assume I'm not the only one who'd say this) - yes, and please continue to do so. I value your viewpoints and appreciate the willingness to learn more.
(and this chick can always stand to learn more as well, as I have in this thread - amongst the many)
I know a woman who is a breast cancer survivor who did a thorough study comparing American's diet with the Japanese which shows that the Japanese consume far less cow's milk than Americans do and their rate of breast cancer is much lower. Might be worth considering ladies- guys too (no kidding).
Or at least consider raw milk.
But that's illegal in most states :fp:
Of which baffles my mind. I'm picking some up next week, although I gave up dairy I want to try it before I lose the right to.
My ex wife had this screening done a couple years ago....she was positive for the same cancer related gene that took her mom at 52....her sister as well.
She had a total hysterectomy (removal of uterus and cervix), a double mastectomy, and reconstructive surgery (not 'some kind of implant', Cliffy .....the common salene augmentation type surgery).
All expenses, from screening to reconstruction, paid by the evil socialist universal healthcare system here in Canada.
I think Angelina is incredibly brave to go through this. She's obviously a smart woman who could see thatthe potential risk of dying from this disease out weighed the need for her breasts to define herself as a woman. Good for her, a courageous and possibly life saving decision.
Especially a young woman in the business she's in where physique is so important.
It is a bold and extremely difficult decision as womanhood is still overall defined by 'external' factors - breasts, visible pregnancy, etc. A woman having had children (and society as a whole) have less of a dilemma with say a complete hysterectomy and removal of the ovaries if presented with such odds as they are inside - not visible... Same with, for example, thyroid cancer - whip it out, no questions asked!
I know that with breasts one can have reconstructive surgery but it is not immediate and physical scars will always be there.
As an intelligent woman who has no financial restrictions, I'm sure Jolie looked at all the options but with odds of not getting cancer at only 10%.... Sure, cancer is somewhat treatable, but what one has to go through is immense - with no guarantee that it's gone. She is thinking of her young family (as well as herself).
If you look at those odds, how many would take risks like that for simple things in life? You are told the flight you are boarding only has a 10% chance of reaching it's destination with 90% chance of being in an accident which could result in death, major trauma, just a broken arm or maybe nothing and the airline is offering alternatives. I don't gamble with such poor odds - I'd go for alternative. Some take the gamble.
And as a side note; guys, should we be commenting on what is clearly a feminine issue, even though I hypocritically just have.
To the guys from a woman (assume I'm not the only one who'd say this) - yes, and please continue to do so. I value your viewpoints and appreciate the willingness to learn more.
(and this chick can always stand to learn more as well, as I have in this thread - amongst the many)
Glad you posted that because I was going to say something similar. "feminine issues" affect men the same way "masculine issues" affect women (medically and politically), overall it is my opinion that we would ALL be better off having open discussions about all sorts of topics, nevermind divides on gender lines, political lines, geographical lines, sexual orientation, class etc etc etc. In the op-ed she wrote, Jolie pointed out that her husband was hugely supportive. I would imagine, if your husband was somewhat hesitant to participate in discussions with the doctors etc etc because it is for all intents and purposes a women's issue, that would make the whole ordeal that much harder. Not that the above comment was meant in that regard, Im just giving one example of why as a female, i would encourage men to participate in this discussion.
My ex wife had this screening done a couple years ago....she was positive for the same cancer related gene that took her mom at 52....her sister as well.
She had a total hysterectomy (removal of uterus and cervix), a double mastectomy, and reconstructive surgery (not 'some kind of implant', Cliffy .....the common salene augmentation type surgery).
All expenses, from screening to reconstruction, paid by the evil socialist universal healthcare system here in Canada.
I need to find a way to get canadian healthcare. :think:
I think Angelina is incredibly brave to go through this. She's obviously a smart woman who could see thatthe potential risk of dying from this disease out weighed the need for her breasts to define herself as a woman. Good for her, a courageous and possibly life saving decision.
Especially a young woman in the business she's in where physique is so important.
It is a bold and extremely difficult decision as womanhood is still overall defined by 'external' factors - breasts, visible pregnancy, etc. A woman having had children (and society as a whole) have less of a dilemma with say a complete hysterectomy and removal of the ovaries if presented with such odds as they are inside - not visible... Same with, for example, thyroid cancer - whip it out, no questions asked!
I know that with breasts one can have reconstructive surgery but it is not immediate and physical scars will always be there.
As an intelligent woman who has no financial restrictions, I'm sure Jolie looked at all the options but with odds of not getting cancer at only 10%.... Sure, cancer is somewhat treatable, but what one has to go through is immense - with no guarantee that it's gone. She is thinking of her young family (as well as herself).
If you look at those odds, how many would take risks like that for simple things in life? You are told the flight you are boarding only has a 10% chance of reaching it's destination with 90% chance of being in an accident which could result in death, major trauma, just a broken arm or maybe nothing and the airline is offering alternatives. I don't gamble with such poor odds - I'd go for alternative. Some take the gamble.
This is pretty much dead-on to my ex's thoughts and experience. for someone who didn't plan to have any more kids, and had just experienced losing both her mom and close friend to cancer in the space of a couple years, it only made sense.
She didn't think it wise to gamble with diagnosing quickly if she could take steps to avoid it altogether. Its a shame that this kind of preventative care isn't available to everyone. No one deserves to go thru that shit if it can be avoided (not that the 'care' is at all desirable, but it does beat the alternative)
I give much credit for Angelina's decision for a double mastectomy. That was a very brave and I am sure a difficult decision to make. She now has cut her chances of breast cancer down to 5%....
No woman wants to have her breast removed but Angelina has the money to get reconstructive surgery and at the same time live a very healthy life without breast cancer.
And as a side note; guys, should we be commenting on what is clearly a feminine issue, even though I hypocritically just have.
To the guys from a woman (assume I'm not the only one who'd say this) - yes, and please continue to do so. I value your viewpoints and appreciate the willingness to learn more.
(and this chick can always stand to learn more as well, as I have in this thread - amongst the many)
If you read the side note correctly you will see it has been phrased as a question, not a statement. We all welcome input from every quarter on this forum on many subjects, however, as much as I have applauded the young lady and her actions, I feel in this instance I am very much out of my depth in commenting further.
I will remember to place question marks in the future.
.... I feel in this instance I am very much out of my depth in commenting further.
Probably feel out of your depth in the same way as a woman would about testicular cancer maybe but....
Once you get over the 'woman's issue' seeing it's her breasts, when one is in a relationship, the partner's understanding, support, etc. are so important. From a man's point of view - whilst your lady may be 'safer' from a health risk point of view, would one see her 'missing breasts'? Would one see her less feminine/less of a woman because of this? All these questions and emotions that a partner would go through... trying to come to terms with the 'voluntary amputation' of something that you may love to touch, etc., coming to terms with the health issues, etc. all whilst trying to support said partner.
So whilst you may not think you can comment on, say, the process and what the woman is going through, you may have very pertinent thoughts on how a partner feels about it, how he can come to terms with this decision and the impact on him, the emotions, the trauma, the relief... A lot to contribute.
And as a side note; guys, should we be commenting on what is clearly a feminine issue, even though I hypocritically just have.
To the guys from a woman (assume I'm not the only one who'd say this) - yes, and please continue to do so. I value your viewpoints and appreciate the willingness to learn more.
(and this chick can always stand to learn more as well, as I have in this thread - amongst the many)
If you read the side note correctly you will see it has been phrased as a question, not a statement. We all welcome input from every quarter on this forum on many subjects, however, as much as I have applauded the young lady and her actions, I feel in this instance I am very much out of my depth in commenting further.
I will remember to place question marks in the future.
I did read it as a question and answered it as such...open-armed, I thought!
Ah well...I hope you took my response in the good spirit with which it was given.
.... I feel in this instance I am very much out of my depth in commenting further.
Probably feel out of your depth in the same way as a woman would about testicular cancer maybe but....
Once you get over the 'woman's issue' seeing it's her breasts, when one is in a relationship, the partner's understanding, support, etc. are so important. From a man's point of view - whilst your lady may be 'safer' from a health risk point of view, would one see her 'missing breasts'? Would one see her less feminine/less of a woman because of this? All these questions and emotions that a partner would go through... trying to come to terms with the 'voluntary amputation' of something that you may love to touch, etc., coming to terms with the health issues, etc. all whilst trying to support said partner.
So whilst you may not think you can comment on, say, the process and what the woman is going through, you may have very pertinent thoughts on how a partner feels about it, how he can come to terms with this decision and the impact on him, the emotions, the trauma, the relief... A lot to contribute.
My point is that not having experienced anything like this I feel ill equiped to start firing off ill informed comments at will on a very public forum which will no doubt be inhabited by many people who have suffered such misfortunes, be it on a personal or family basis, so I personally feel I should keep my comments to myself, such as with the religious debates on this forum that I have ruled myself out of. I don't shy away from discussing female issues, or religious issues, I do know when to back off which was the point of my original post.
To be honest I think most people commenting have little to no direct personal experience with this procedure.
That's also part of why Jolie wrote the op-ed (i think), because it's not really a comfortable topic, it's not discussed enough, and it's a something that should be discussed, at all angles, by us as a society.
The op-ed said she had an 87% chance of cancer based on the gene and her family history with her Mom dying before 60. This procedure reduced it to something like less than 5%.
And no, a big portion of her point was that this type of treatment is not available for all women due to its costs, and it needs to be. Probably the most important point she made, which is going to get lost in the celebrity talk of "Angelina Jolie getting her breasts removed".
My point is that not having experienced anything like this I feel ill equiped to start firing off ill informed comments at will on a very public forum which will no doubt be inhabited by many people who have suffered such misfortunes, be it on a personal or family basis, so I personally feel I should keep my comments to myself, such as with the religious debates on this forum that I have ruled myself out of. I don't shy away from discussing female issues, or religious issues, I do know when to back off which was the point of my original post.
To the guys from a woman (assume I'm not the only one who'd say this) - yes, and please continue to do so. I value your viewpoints and appreciate the willingness to learn more.
(and this chick can always stand to learn more as well, as I have in this thread - amongst the many)[/quote]
If you read the side note correctly you will see it has been phrased as a question, not a statement. We all welcome input from every quarter on this forum on many subjects, however, as much as I have applauded the young lady and her actions, I feel in this instance I am very much out of my depth in commenting further.
I will remember to place question marks in the future.[/quote]
I did read it as a question and answered it as such...open-armed, I thought!
Ah well...I hope you took my response in the good spirit with which it was given.[/quote]
I always take your responses and posts in good spirit, in fact I look forward to them amongst a few others on this forum. I think what we are experiencing here is all our common inability to contextualise the written word when it is written in such short bursts, often leading to confusion and mild aggression... :fp:
I now hear she is to undergo further surgery to remove her ovaries...good luck to her and her family.
I always take your responses and posts in good spirit, in fact I look forward to them amongst a few others on this forum. I think what we are experiencing here is all our common inability to contextualise the written word when it is written in such short bursts, often leading to confusion and mild aggression... :fp:
I now hear she is to undergo further surgery to remove her ovaries...good luck to her and her family.
Well thank you, sir
And yes, much luck and good health to her. Here's to others needing/wanting these surgeries being able to have them, without going broke in the process.
This seems to be an extreme reaction to a possible health risk. Letting Fear rule her decision making.
I work with a girl who has double FF's, her mother, grand mother and great grand mother all died of breast cancer. The insurance companies wouldn't cover a mammogram until she was 40, when she was 35 she started paying to have them done out of pocket, she's 45 now and so far so good.
fear? jolie is taking her future health into her own hands. the possibility of her getting cancer is high so she did something proactive to lower that risk. its kinda like wearing a seatbelt cause that lowers your chance of dying in a car wreck. both preventative measures tho not definitive.
what has the girl you work with having FFs got to do with anything? men get breast cancer too you know... so size is irrelevant.
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Comments
This was a personal quote from a personal point of view and was in no way meant as an attack on your original post...I'm just joining in as someone who was moved by the young ladies decision...but I am glad to see you are following up your post as concerned observer. I welcomed your post the moment I saw it on the main page, and I feel this is something important that should be discussed at length here, on this most open and engaging of forums. I have enjoyed your posts in the past and look forward to reading and engaging with in the future.
But that's illegal in most states :fp:
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
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My medical group charged my insurance company 375.00.
her mother died at 56 and she wants to be around for her children
and yes, the whole thing is far more costly than the average woman could afford
"what a long, strange trip it's been"
To the guys from a woman (assume I'm not the only one who'd say this) - yes, and please continue to do so. I value your viewpoints and appreciate the willingness to learn more.
(and this chick can always stand to learn more as well, as I have in this thread - amongst the many)
Of which baffles my mind. I'm picking some up next week, although I gave up dairy I want to try it before I lose the right to.
She had a total hysterectomy (removal of uterus and cervix), a double mastectomy, and reconstructive surgery (not 'some kind of implant', Cliffy
All expenses, from screening to reconstruction, paid by the evil socialist universal healthcare system here in Canada.
Especially a young woman in the business she's in where physique is so important.
It is a bold and extremely difficult decision as womanhood is still overall defined by 'external' factors - breasts, visible pregnancy, etc. A woman having had children (and society as a whole) have less of a dilemma with say a complete hysterectomy and removal of the ovaries if presented with such odds as they are inside - not visible... Same with, for example, thyroid cancer - whip it out, no questions asked!
I know that with breasts one can have reconstructive surgery but it is not immediate and physical scars will always be there.
As an intelligent woman who has no financial restrictions, I'm sure Jolie looked at all the options but with odds of not getting cancer at only 10%.... Sure, cancer is somewhat treatable, but what one has to go through is immense - with no guarantee that it's gone. She is thinking of her young family (as well as herself).
If you look at those odds, how many would take risks like that for simple things in life? You are told the flight you are boarding only has a 10% chance of reaching it's destination with 90% chance of being in an accident which could result in death, major trauma, just a broken arm or maybe nothing and the airline is offering alternatives. I don't gamble with such poor odds - I'd go for alternative. Some take the gamble.
Glad you posted that because I was going to say something similar. "feminine issues" affect men the same way "masculine issues" affect women (medically and politically), overall it is my opinion that we would ALL be better off having open discussions about all sorts of topics, nevermind divides on gender lines, political lines, geographical lines, sexual orientation, class etc etc etc. In the op-ed she wrote, Jolie pointed out that her husband was hugely supportive. I would imagine, if your husband was somewhat hesitant to participate in discussions with the doctors etc etc because it is for all intents and purposes a women's issue, that would make the whole ordeal that much harder. Not that the above comment was meant in that regard, Im just giving one example of why as a female, i would encourage men to participate in this discussion.
I need to find a way to get canadian healthcare. :think:
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
She didn't think it wise to gamble with diagnosing quickly if she could take steps to avoid it altogether. Its a shame that this kind of preventative care isn't available to everyone. No one deserves to go thru that shit if it can be avoided (not that the 'care' is at all desirable, but it does beat the alternative)
No woman wants to have her breast removed but Angelina has the money to get reconstructive surgery and at the same time live a very healthy life without breast cancer.
If you read the side note correctly you will see it has been phrased as a question, not a statement. We all welcome input from every quarter on this forum on many subjects, however, as much as I have applauded the young lady and her actions, I feel in this instance I am very much out of my depth in commenting further.
I will remember to place question marks in the future.
Probably feel out of your depth in the same way as a woman would about testicular cancer maybe but....
Once you get over the 'woman's issue' seeing it's her breasts, when one is in a relationship, the partner's understanding, support, etc. are so important. From a man's point of view - whilst your lady may be 'safer' from a health risk point of view, would one see her 'missing breasts'? Would one see her less feminine/less of a woman because of this? All these questions and emotions that a partner would go through... trying to come to terms with the 'voluntary amputation' of something that you may love to touch, etc., coming to terms with the health issues, etc. all whilst trying to support said partner.
So whilst you may not think you can comment on, say, the process and what the woman is going through, you may have very pertinent thoughts on how a partner feels about it, how he can come to terms with this decision and the impact on him, the emotions, the trauma, the relief... A lot to contribute.
Ah well...I hope you took my response in the good spirit with which it was given.
My point is that not having experienced anything like this I feel ill equiped to start firing off ill informed comments at will on a very public forum which will no doubt be inhabited by many people who have suffered such misfortunes, be it on a personal or family basis, so I personally feel I should keep my comments to myself, such as with the religious debates on this forum that I have ruled myself out of. I don't shy away from discussing female issues, or religious issues, I do know when to back off which was the point of my original post.
That's also part of why Jolie wrote the op-ed (i think), because it's not really a comfortable topic, it's not discussed enough, and it's a something that should be discussed, at all angles, by us as a society.
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
Seems that it isn't that strange an operation:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/s ... jolie.html
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
Fair enough.
(and this chick can always stand to learn more as well, as I have in this thread - amongst the many)[/quote]
If you read the side note correctly you will see it has been phrased as a question, not a statement. We all welcome input from every quarter on this forum on many subjects, however, as much as I have applauded the young lady and her actions, I feel in this instance I am very much out of my depth in commenting further.
I will remember to place question marks in the future.[/quote]
I did read it as a question and answered it as such...open-armed, I thought!
Ah well...I hope you took my response in the good spirit with which it was given.[/quote]
I always take your responses and posts in good spirit, in fact I look forward to them amongst a few others on this forum. I think what we are experiencing here is all our common inability to contextualise the written word when it is written in such short bursts, often leading to confusion and mild aggression... :fp:
I now hear she is to undergo further surgery to remove her ovaries...good luck to her and her family.
And yes, much luck and good health to her. Here's to others needing/wanting these surgeries being able to have them, without going broke in the process.
fear? jolie is taking her future health into her own hands. the possibility of her getting cancer is high so she did something proactive to lower that risk. its kinda like wearing a seatbelt cause that lowers your chance of dying in a car wreck. both preventative measures tho not definitive.
what has the girl you work with having FFs got to do with anything? men get breast cancer too you know... so size is irrelevant.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say