Best way to fight climate change is to stop talking about it

mikepegg44 · May 2013

polaris_x wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

Being environmentally responsible can result in preservation of the species, but it will never be seen as immediate self preservation until it literally is self preservation. Most of the negative effects that my/our(not sure how old you are actually) generation will have on the environment will not be felt by me/us. Most people will never look outside their own immediate needs.
If you honestly believe that most people think that being environmentally friendly meets the need for immediate self preservation, this article's findings and the resistance to green living would not exist. as to your example, food is a necessity, being green will never be seen by most as a necessity until it means the difference between life and death for them that minute or day or year.
You are a bit biased in your assessment of being green meeting those immediate satisfaction needs because of your passion for promoting awareness to the reality of climate change. I cannot fault you for that, but unfortunately the perception by most is that they don't. I didn't say spending a little extra money on things was impossible to do. But organic food is just slightly more expensive and doesn't sell as well, correct?. Price and need are huge factors in a product's success. People constantly use the cost/benefit analysis of things whether they are conscious of it or not. If the benefits of a product cannot be seen as outweighing the cost the product doesn't move well.
take a washing machine for example. If a washing machine was great for the environment but cost you 500 dollars more to buy and 200 dollars a year more to operate they wouldn't sell. BUT, if you can show that a WM that costs 500 dollars more now will save you money in the long run, it sells...not because of the benefit to the environment in the long run, but because of the cost savings to the individual. If environmentally friendly actions were seen as meeting the immediate need of self preservation they would sell without the benefit of saving money wouldn't they?
Hybrids don't sell because they are good for the environment. They sell because gas got expensive.

Environmental change is slow, but the other edge to that sword is that the worse it gets the more the desire to preserve one's self will weigh into green decision making.

the problem with your assessment is that there is one major factor at play here ... corporations and greed ... the only reason why the non-environmental choice is considered the more attractive choice in the short term is because of it's influence on gov't and pr campaigns ... because, in general, we do not pay the TRUE cost of items - the economics is skewed towards the over-consumption of shitty things that don't last and are not good for us ...

if we paid the true cost of oil extraction - there is no way in hell we'd be ever driving gasoline cars ... if we paid the true cost of farming (industrial vs. organic) - we'd all be eating organic ... just because the corporations have influenced gov't to the point of controlling policy to favour their profits doesn't mean that it's the best ...

look at where we are now on a personal and collective state ... mass debt, declining health, unsustainable economies and planet ...

That was my main point of it all. That cost, whether ficitonal, subsidized, or real, is what is driving people's immediate choices. If, for instance, the united states became like the Sahara I guarantee people would be much better at conserving water. But people in MN aren't necessarily going to be motivated to conserve water in the same way right now because every where I look there is a lake full of it.

As the articles Jeanwah posted point out, self preservation is a dangerous thing. For it may trick us into steering away from something that would benefit us in the long run...

talking about economics and all that...it is in your best interest to invest and save money, while planning for their future. How many do that at a young age when it will be most beneficial but the future seems like it will never happen?

People are strange...most of us know what is best for us, but yet we often ignore that knowledge for some other more immediate perceived need.

hedonist · May 2013

By the same token, why would I put in more money I can't afford to something that may pay off years down the road vs being able to provide for our immediate needs? Shame on me for that?

This is a bit tied into the scolding I mentioned earlier...and actually, it's akin to other views too (religious, vegan, off the top of my head) that, whether intentional or not, chide those of another perspective.

We all live our lives as we best see fit. I think I'm mostly a decent person, try not to be wasteful, try to extend courtesies, and on. And yes, my first priority is toward myself, then my husband, then our finances, and the ripple goes on.

No apologies here for that.

Jeanwah · May 2013

hedonist wrote:

By the same token, why would I put in more money I can't afford to something that may pay off years down the road vs being able to provide for our immediate needs? Shame on me for that?

Because on many occasions, instant gratification does not exactly gratify, nor save you as much money. It's like buying a Walmart tool that's just gonna break and you'll be spending money on another one in no time whereas if you invest in a well made tool, you actually save money in the long run and you'd own a quality tool that will work for years. Not necessarily shame on you for that, but weighing all the pros and cons get you to the right place. Always buying cheap and cheaply made just gets one to consume more and running out and spending more money. Can you see that?

hedonist wrote:

This is a bit tied into the scolding I mentioned earlier...and actually, it's akin to other views too (religious, vegan, off the top of my head) that, whether intentional or not, chide those of another perspective.

We all live our lives as we best see fit. I think I'm mostly a decent person, try not to be wasteful, try to extend courtesies, and on. And yes, my first priority is toward myself, then my husband, then our finances, and the ripple goes on.

No apologies here for that.

I see no scolding going on, but if you do... :?

I can understand that you feel the need to justify yourself, hedonist, and perhaps you feel threatened or "scolded" as you put it. How do you feel about the environment, because I feel that as if you are basically uninterested. Which is fine, it's your business, but it's a big topic that a lot of us are involved with.

hedonist · May 2013

Jeanwah wrote:

hedonist wrote:

By the same token, why would I put in more money I can't afford to something that may pay off years down the road vs being able to provide for our immediate needs? Shame on me for that?

Because on many occasions, instant gratification does not exactly gratify, nor save you as much money. It's like buying a Walmart tool that's just gonna break and you'll be spending money on another one in no time whereas if you invest in a well made tool, you actually save money in the long run and you'd own a quality tool that will work for years. Not necessarily shame on you for that, but weighing all the pros and cons get you to the right place. Always buying cheap and cheaply made just gets one to consume more and running out and spending more money. Can you see that?

hedonist wrote:

This is a bit tied into the scolding I mentioned earlier...and actually, it's akin to other views too (religious, vegan, off the top of my head) that, whether intentional or not, chide those of another perspective.

We all live our lives as we best see fit. I think I'm mostly a decent person, try not to be wasteful, try to extend courtesies, and on. And yes, my first priority is toward myself, then my husband, then our finances, and the ripple goes on.

No apologies here for that.

I see no scolding going on, but if you do... :?

I can understand that you feel the need to justify yourself, hedonist, and perhaps you feel threatened or "scolded" as you put it. How do you feel about the environment, because I feel that as if you are basically uninterested. Which is fine, it's your business, but it's a big topic that a lot of us are involved with.

I do see your first point, as I mentioned this earlier ("I too believe in investing in quality products, whether appliances, clothing, you get the gist"). Cheap for the sake of cheap is expensive. It's not about instant gratification; never mentioned that.
And I don't feel threatened, nor am I being combative, just throwing my two cents into this topic. Certainly not disinterested otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to chime in - but admittedly, not as passionate about this as others.

polaris_x · May 2013

hedonist wrote:

By the same token, why would I put in more money I can't afford to something that may pay off years down the road vs being able to provide for our immediate needs? Shame on me for that?

This is a bit tied into the scolding I mentioned earlier...and actually, it's akin to other views too (religious, vegan, off the top of my head) that, whether intentional or not, chide those of another perspective.

We all live our lives as we best see fit. I think I'm mostly a decent person, try not to be wasteful, try to extend courtesies, and on. And yes, my first priority is toward myself, then my husband, then our finances, and the ripple goes on.

No apologies here for that.

uhhh ... am i wrong to say you are on the defensive here? ... you don't like being told that the planet is going to shits? ... you don't like the undertones of being called selfish when you clearly have no problems admitting as much?

sure ... everyone is selfish ... doesn't make it any more right or wrong ...

we don't live isolated lives ... the decisions of other impacts us directly ... so, i'm sorry if our agenda of getting everyone to look at the bigger picture offends you but that's life isn't it? ...

hedonist · May 2013

polaris_x wrote:

uhhh ... am i wrong to say you are on the defensive here? ... you don't like being told that the planet is going to shits? ... you don't like the undertones of being called selfish when you clearly have no problems admitting as much?

sure ... everyone is selfish ... doesn't make it any more right or wrong ...

we don't live isolated lives ... the decisions of other impacts us directly ... so, i'm sorry if our agenda of getting everyone to look at the bigger picture offends you but that's life isn't it? ...

Perhaps my comments came off as defensive - if so, it wasn't my intent (nor am I offended, nor threatened, etc.).

I can handle information and in participating in this thread, tried to explain - respectfully and not personally - how sometimes this kind of information is shared with the sense of reproaching others.

Anyway, I'm not gonna go in circles here (but happy to further clarify if need be :P )

brianlux · May 2013

hedonist wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

uhhh ... am i wrong to say you are on the defensive here? ... you don't like being told that the planet is going to shits? ... you don't like the undertones of being called selfish when you clearly have no problems admitting as much?

sure ... everyone is selfish ... doesn't make it any more right or wrong ...

we don't live isolated lives ... the decisions of other impacts us directly ... so, i'm sorry if our agenda of getting everyone to look at the bigger picture offends you but that's life isn't it? ...

Perhaps my comments came off as defensive - if so, it wasn't my intent (nor am I offended, nor threatened, etc.).

I can handle information and in participating in this thread, tried to explain - respectfully and not personally - how sometimes this kind of information is shared with the sense of reproaching others.

Anyway, I'm not gonna go in circles here (but happy to further clarify if need be :P )

Hedonist, I don't mean to belabor a point put having read the last half dozen or so posts to this thread I'm still a bit confused by your response regarding feeling scolded. I'm sensing a number of possibilities here:

You are concerned about the environment but you are just trying to get by and can't afford to do any more than you are and don't want to be told (or thinking you are being told) you should do so. Or,

You are concerned about the environment but you place a higher priority on maintaining your life style over being told (or thinking you are being told) you could do more to make a difference. Or,

You don't think the problems with the environment are severe enough to bother with encouraging people to try harder to make a difference. Or,

You don't really care that much about environmental issues and find it offensive that some of us focus a good amount of attention on these issues (but of course, if that is true you know you can ignore this kind of thread).

Please understand, I'm not making any accusations here. I really just don't understand why you have- or at least seem to me to have- taken some of the things some of us (you mention Jeanwah and myself above) personally to the point of feeling scolded.

Believe me, my intention is not to scold. For me its about a feeling of responsibility and caring. Because I've spent a lot of time studying environmental issues, read a ton of material (well, ok, may just a few hundred pounds

) about environmental issues and have lived long enough to observe environmental changes in our world (which perhaps counts for more than all the reading I've done), I feel a sense of responsibility toward doing what I can to make a difference or at least keep the discussion going.

The bottom line on the environment to me is this: Human encroachment on environment is causing loss of species habitat. Human activity is pumping an excess amount of co2 into the environment causing climate change which, at this phase, means global warming. Pollution and toxicity in our environment has not abated. Fresh water is becoming more scare. The combination of these factors may likely lead to a major extinction event, including the extinction of our species. These things may happen not matter what we do but to me it makes sense to do what we can to soften the blow so as to increase the chances of our children and grandchildren being able to live in a world without catastrophic and horrific consequences.

That simple. If this doesn't sit well, let it go. As Edward Abbey once said:

"I would never betray a friend to serve a cause. Never reject a friend to help an institution. Great nations may fall in ruin before I would sell a friend to save them."

I hope we're all friends here.

guypjfreak · May 2013

just finished reading " the world with out us " bloody eye opener with some good ideas

hedonist · May 2013

brianlux wrote:

Hedonist, I don't mean to belabor a point put having read the last half dozen or so posts to this thread I'm still a bit confused by your response regarding feeling scolded. I'm sensing a number of possibilities here:

You are concerned about the environment but you are just trying to get by and can't afford to do any more than you are and don't want to be told (or thinking you are being told) you should do so. Or,

You are concerned about the environment but you place a higher priority on maintaining your life style over being told (or thinking you are being told) you could do more to make a difference. Or,

You don't think the problems with the environment are severe enough to bother with encouraging people to try harder to make a difference. Or,

You don't really care that much about environmental issues and find it offensive that some of us focus a good amount of attention on these issues (but of course, if that is true you know you can ignore this kind of thread).

Please understand, I'm not making any accusations here. I really just don't understand why you have- or at least seem to me to have- taken some of the things some of us (you mention Jeanwah and myself above) personally to the point of feeling scolded.

Believe me, my intention is not to scold. For me its about a feeling of responsibility and caring. Because I've spent a lot of time studying environmental issues, read a ton of material (well, ok, may just a few hundred pounds ) about environmental issues and have lived long enough to observe environmental changes in our world (which perhaps counts for more than all the reading I've done), I feel a sense of responsibility toward doing what I can to make a difference or at least keep the discussion going.

The bottom line on the environment to me is this: Human encroachment on environment is causing loss of species habitat. Human activity is pumping an excess amount of co2 into the environment causing climate change which, at this phase, means global warming. Pollution and toxicity in our environment has not abated. Fresh water is becoming more scare. The combination of these factors may likely lead to a major extinction event, including the extinction of our species. These things may happen not matter what we do but to me it makes sense to do what we can to soften the blow so as to increase the chances of our children and grandchildren being able to live in a world without catastrophic and horrific consequences.

That simple. If this doesn't sit well, let it go. As Edward Abbey once said:

"I would never betray a friend to serve a cause. Never reject a friend to help an institution. Great nations may fall in ruin before I would sell a friend to save them."

I hope we're all friends here.

I have no ill will toward anyone here - as I've said before! It's not that I don't give a shit; I do indeed care (again, obviously not to the level of others) and my initial comments were that my first priorities lay elsewhere. Not sure how much clearer I can be.

And may I state again, I was not offended. Figured I can toss in a respectful cent or two into any topic.

*lets it go*

polaris_x · May 2013

hedonist wrote:

Perhaps my comments came off as defensive - if so, it wasn't my intent (nor am I offended, nor threatened, etc.).

I can handle information and in participating in this thread, tried to explain - respectfully and not personally - how sometimes this kind of information is shared with the sense of reproaching others.

Anyway, I'm not gonna go in circles here (but happy to further clarify if need be :P )

ok ... we all have our grown up pants on ...

feel free to continue to offer your insight and truth be told - you really are the people we need to reach ... the people who do care but find it hard amongst everything else ...

as i've said in other threads ... the environmental movement has failed in many regards ... miserably even ... our inability to combat the PR and myths has been a major failure in my opinion ... and it leaves us where we are now ... still having to convince people of the perils of global warming - that in it of itself is a sad reflection of the movement ...

hedonist · May 2013

polaris_x wrote:

ok ... we all have our grown up pants on ...

feel free to continue to offer your insight and truth be told - you really are the people we need to reach ... the people who do care but find it hard amongst everything else ...

as i've said in other threads ... the environmental movement has failed in many regards ... miserably even ... our inability to combat the PR and myths has been a major failure in my opinion ... and it leaves us where we are now ... still having to convince people of the perils of global warming - that in it of itself is a sad reflection of the movement ...

Well thanks

I found the initial article interesting and was offering up a viewpoint from one who doesn't automatically purchase something only because it's deemed eco-friendly. I have actually been told by some (out there, not in here) "how could you POSSIBLY purchase that? Why aren't you purchasing THIS? Don't you CARE?" While well-meaning, there's a self-righteous tone to it that rubs me the wrong way...which is why earlier I likened it in ways to veganism or religion.

At any rate, yeah - big-girl pants on here :P

brianlux · May 2013

hedonist wrote:

I have actually been told by some (out there, not in here) "how could you POSSIBLY purchase that? Why aren't you purchasing THIS? Don't you CARE?" While well-meaning, there's a self-righteous tone to it that rubs me the wrong way...which is why earlier I likened it in ways to veganism or religion.

At any rate, yeah - big-girl pants on here :P

For sure, but like you say, no one here has done that. I just don't see any scolding or self righteousness here, Hedonist. None of us are perfect... other than those of us who are going to purchase the self-impaling zero footprint Prius hahaha!!!. We're just trying to get the word out and encourage a few more folks to help make a positive difference.

hedonist · May 2013

brianlux wrote:

hedonist wrote:

I have actually been told by some (out there, not in here) "how could you POSSIBLY purchase that? Why aren't you purchasing THIS? Don't you CARE?" While well-meaning, there's a self-righteous tone to it that rubs me the wrong way...which is why earlier I likened it in ways to veganism or religion.

At any rate, yeah - big-girl pants on here :P

For sure, but like you say, no one here has done that. I just don't see any scolding or self righteousness here, Hedonist. None of us are perfect... other than those of us who are going to purchase the self-impaling zero footprint Prius hahaha!!!. We're just trying to get the word out and encourage a few more folks to help make a positive difference.

I get it, I truly do. I'm not slighting you or anyone else here for that. I've said it enough already; no more circles! It was mentioned earlier to let it go. I have, I thought I did.

Now I'm gonna go bang my head on the wall

JonnyPistachio · May 2013

I mentioned this to BrianLux this morning, and thought maybe I could share it here too:

I watched the first 30 minutes of a documentary called the Island President. Its on netflix streaming.
Its all about how they are trying to raise awareness of how the Maldives are affected by global warming/climate change... in regards to this beautiful island nation that is seemingly slipping away to rising waters..

http://theislandpresident.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_President

I figured some might enjoy it and learn some interesting things.

polaris_x · May 2013

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I mentioned this to BrianLux this morning, and thought maybe I could share it here too:

I watched the first 30 minutes of a documentary called the Island President. Its on netflix streaming.
Its all about how they are trying to raise awareness of how the Maldives are affected by global warming/climate change... in regards to this beautiful island nation that is seemingly slipping away to rising waters..

http://theislandpresident.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_President

I figured some might enjoy it and learn some interesting things.

those nations will have to evacuate ... :(

Jeanwah · May 2013

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I mentioned this to BrianLux this morning, and thought maybe I could share it here too:

I watched the first 30 minutes of a documentary called the Island President. Its on netflix streaming.
Its all about how they are trying to raise awareness of how the Maldives are affected by global warming/climate change... in regards to this beautiful island nation that is seemingly slipping away to rising waters..

http://theislandpresident.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_President

I figured some might enjoy it and learn some interesting things.

Did the first 30 minutes not entice you enough to watch the rest of the documentary?

Oh, and every coastal area in the world is at risk, proabably not as much as Maldives, but they are all disappearing very slowly but surely.

JonnyPistachio · May 2013

Jeanwah wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I mentioned this to BrianLux this morning, and thought maybe I could share it here too:

I watched the first 30 minutes of a documentary called the Island President. Its on netflix streaming.
Its all about how they are trying to raise awareness of how the Maldives are affected by global warming/climate change... in regards to this beautiful island nation that is seemingly slipping away to rising waters..

http://theislandpresident.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_President

I figured some might enjoy it and learn some interesting things.

Did the first 30 minutes not entice you enough to watch the rest of the documentary?

Oh, and every coastal area in the world is at risk, proabably not as much as Maldives, but they are all disappearing very slowly but surely.

Oh no, I shouldve been clearer, sorry. I only watch short bits of things early in the morning. I like to process it a bit and go back 2-3 times during the week. I fully intend on watching the rest in the coming days -- it was good.

Jeanwah · May 2013

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I mentioned this to BrianLux this morning, and thought maybe I could share it here too:

I watched the first 30 minutes of a documentary called the Island President. Its on netflix streaming.
Its all about how they are trying to raise awareness of how the Maldives are affected by global warming/climate change... in regards to this beautiful island nation that is seemingly slipping away to rising waters..

http://theislandpresident.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_President

I figured some might enjoy it and learn some interesting things.

Did the first 30 minutes not entice you enough to watch the rest of the documentary?

Oh, and every coastal area in the world is at risk, proabably not as much as Maldives, but they are all disappearing very slowly but surely.

Oh no, I shouldve been clearer, sorry. I only watch short bits of things early in the morning. I like to process it a bit and go back 2-3 times during the week. I fully intend on watching the rest in the coming days -- it was good.

Ok.

I'll check it out, sounds good.

BinauralJam · May 2013

http://mashable.com/2013/05/09/google-timelapse/

Jeanwah · May 2013

So, maybe we should talk about CO2 levels?

http://researchmatters.noaa.gov/news/Pa ... 00ppm.aspx

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sci ... 6126.story

...For the previous 800,000 years, CO2 levels never exceeded 300 ppm, and there is no known geologic period in which rates of increase have been so sharp. The level was about 280 ppm at the advent of the Industrial Revolution in the 18th century, when the burning of fossil fuels began to soar.

"I wish it weren't true, but it looks like the world is going to blow through the 400-ppm level without losing a beat," said Scripps geochemist Ralph Keeling, who has taken over the Keeling curve measurement from his late father. "At this pace we'll hit 450 ppm within a few decades."

The saw-tooth pattern of the incline reflects small seasonal variations within the long-term upward trend. Generally, the micro-peak in the curve comes in May.

"The 400-ppm threshold is a sobering milestone and should serve as a wake-up call for all of us to support clean-energy technology and reduce emissions of greenhouse gases before it's too late for our children and grandchildren," said Tim Lueker, an oceanographer and carbon cycle researcher who is a longtime member of the Scripps CO2 Group.

Best way to fight climate change is to stop talking about it

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