that is what I meant on Prop 8, basically. I am not so positive the SCOTUS will uphold the ruling and declare one final time that it is unconstitutional for a state to deny the right to marry a same sex partner.
The Supreme Court doesn't generally like overturning decisions like that and just about every legal expert who saw the arguments and questions has said that it looks very likely that they will allow Judge Walker's ruling to stand.
Are you really that confident that prop 8 wouldn't survive another vote? I am shocked it passed in California to begin with...
That was 5 years ago and the Mormonazis poured tens of millions of dollars into it. They Mormons got burned very badly in the fallout from that and the raw, seething hatred that they stirred up has only grown more deeply-rooted. They're not getting involved like that again.
Back then it was easy for those people to confuse people into thinking that Prop 8 was about teaching kindergarteners about "gay marriage." They filled the airwaves with lots of terrified looking children saying "What does marriage mean to ME?"
That shit won't fly anymore. They tried it in the last election and lost all four ballot measures.
And marriage equality now has a 64% support in California. It's going away no matter what.
that is what I meant on Prop 8, basically. I am not so positive the SCOTUS will uphold the ruling and declare one final time that it is unconstitutional for a state to deny the right to marry a same sex partner.
The Supreme Court doesn't generally like overturning decisions like that and just about every legal expert who saw the arguments and questions has said that it looks very likely that they will allow Judge Walker's ruling to stand.
Are you really that confident that prop 8 wouldn't survive another vote? I am shocked it passed in California to begin with...
That was 5 years ago and the Mormonazis poured tens of millions of dollars into it. They Mormons got burned very badly in the fallout from that and the raw, seething hatred that they stirred up has only grown more deeply-rooted. They're not getting involved like that again.
Back then it was easy for those people to confuse people into thinking that Prop 8 was about teaching kindergarteners about "gay marriage." They filled the airwaves with lots of terrified looking children saying "What does marriage mean to ME?"
That shit won't fly anymore. They tried it in the last election and lost all four ballot measures.
And marriage equality now has a 64% support in California. It's going away no matter what.
that is awesome to hear
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Another consequence will be a rise in the number of divorces. It's already crazy high and once gay couples can actually get married, they will be no different from the rest.
Actually...
In the states where they allowed marriage equality... divorce went DOWN.
Funny factoid...
Marriage isn't something that gay people are pushed into by family and society pressure. I didn't get a hope chest for my 18th birthday or parents and friends nagging us about getting married. We aren't told our whole lives that our wedding will be the "Best Day Of Your Life" or made to feel like we're not complete people for not being married.
So gay couples don't rush into marriage and therefore... the divorce rate is much lower than with the straight people who race to the altar.
Other funny factoid... straight marriages are months-long ordeals of showers and money raising and pre-marriage parties and "Jack and Jill" and receptions and expensive dresses and floral arrangements and stressed nerves and outrageously expensive rings with transparent rocks. They cost a fortune and are usually humiliating displays of tackiness that know no bounds. Gay weddings almost never come with "showers" or astronomical prices on flowers or clothes or invitations. If gay people want to make a big spectacle of themselves... they won't get married to do it.
So we actually get married because we want to. So we stay married longer.
Go figure.
I think those are all short term statistics. It will end up just where marriage is for heteros because it is all the same and people are people.
So gay couples don't rush into marriage and therefore... the divorce rate is much lower than with the straight people who race to the altar.
That makes sense, especially when you factor that for gay couples there is no equivalent of "oh shit birth control failed and there is a baby on the way, we better get married" which probably leads to a ton of really poorly thought out marriages that don't really last among hetero couples (especially for teens). If you eliminated all of those marriages, I bet the divorce rate would be much lower.
Look at the two sides...
On one side, the point is: We are America. We are the Land Of The Free. Home of Equality in that All Men/Women are Created Equal. We should NOT restrict someone else's Pursuit of Happiness, just because we do not approve of them.
...
On the other side: Their main point is, 'God Hates Fags'.
That makes sense, especially when you factor that for gay couples there is no equivalent of "oh shit birth control failed and there is a baby on the way, we better get married" which probably leads to a ton of really poorly thought out marriages that don't really last among hetero couples (especially for teens). If you eliminated all of those marriages, I bet the divorce rate would be much lower.
Oh for sure. The "Shotgun Wedding" I'm sure accounts for a lot of marriages. And there are some women (sorry, but not a lot of men) who will marry just so they have someone to look after them.
There are a lot of people in the south who feel society's pressure to get married and there are all kinds of factors that push straight couples to get married out of some odd sense of duty.
Gay people... we don't really have those pressures or expectations.
And who do you think is likely to stay married longer... the couple who do it while drunk in Las Vegas impulsively or the two lesbians who've been together for 20 years and have fought in the courts for the right to get married? Who do you think really wants it more?
Now... once it's legal for a generation or so... that may change. But I know that especially with the men in my group of friends... marriage isn't something that they feel pressured to do. Among my group of friends, there are three married couples. PLUS there are a few couples who've been together for years and still live in separate houses and don't obsess about marriage and all that it brings. It's.... different for guys, I guess.
Now... once it's legal for a generation or so... that may change.
That's what I, at least, took cincy's post up there to mean.
It's not a competition between straight and gay people regarding longevity of the marriage. There are impulsive people all over, just as there are those who are willing to work at it. There are idiots all over, just as there are those who actually live by the credo of for better or worse, sickness and health, etc.
The actual act of legal marriage aside (and I get that's the topic at hand but this relates to my point), whether they're straight or gay is really inconsequential.
I think those are all short term statistics. It will end up just where marriage is for heteros because it is all the same and people are people.
I have no idea at all what you mean by this.
I think what cincybearcat is saying is that gay or straight, people are people and divorce will happen. The rate may be lower now but as years go by it will even out. Just human nature.
It's not a competition between straight and gay people regarding longevity of the marriage.
Well... to be fair... back in the 90s, that was one of the big "talking points" was that "gays are incapable of long-term relationships and allowing us to marry would mean "opening up drive-thru wedding chapels on every corner."
So it's only not a competition because it's one that the straight Christians wouldn't win. TRUST me... if it were the other way around... you would hear about that EVERY time the subject came up.
There are impulsive people all over, just as there are those who are willing to work at it. There are idiots all over, just as there are those who actually live by the credo of for better or worse, sickness and health, etc.
Agree 100%
The actual act of legal marriage aside (and I get that's the topic at hand but this relates to my point), whether they're straight or gay is really inconsequential.
As was said, people are people.
But communities and cultures are different. Straight girls are told their whole lives growing up that their marriage is the most important and best day of their lives. So for a lot of straight people... it's not a legal contract about rights and protections, it's about family legacy and religion and tradition and "something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue" with 2 hours of toasts and first dances and throwing a bouquet.
I can promise you that I have been to about 20 gay weddings and 10 lesbian weddings and I have NEVER seen a first dance, the "old-new-borrowed-blue" thing or a bouquet... thrown or otherwise.
(we also don't say "you may now kiss the bride." Or play "here comes the bride." Or wear white.
Who really cares what the statistics are ... as far as I'm concerned if your in a marriage and your happy that all that matters ...
Well until your husband dies and his family comes and kicks you out of the house you've had together for 20 years and you end up homeless (which happens often).
Or your husband is deported.
Or you raise a family together with him working and you staying at home and he dies and you're jobless and without income (you don't get his survivor benefits).
Or you're told you can't make his health care decisions when he's in a coma... you can't even come into intensive care. And they won't even tell you when he dies. Because you're "not family."
Who really cares what the statistics are ... as far as I'm concerned if your in a marriage and your happy that all that matters ...
Well until your husband dies and his family comes and kicks you out of the house you've had together for 20 years and you end up homeless (which happens often).
Or your husband is deported.
Or you raise a family together with him working and you staying at home and he dies and you're jobless and without income (you don't get his survivor benefits).
Or you're told you can't make his health care decisions when he's in a coma... you can't even come into intensive care. And they won't even tell you when he dies. Because you're "not family."
then it kinda matters.
I'm in full support of marriage equality. I believe there are far more important issue's for the government and people to worry about. To clarify my statement we don't need to worry about who divorce who more often, that's all I'm saying.
As I stated I am for full equality ... the stuff you mentioned that can happen is wrong. I'm know you love your husband as much as I love my wife and you should be able to make all those decisions that I can make and I hope some day you can.
I hope you didn't think I was valuing your marriage any less than mine because I'm not...good luck to you and your husband in the fight for equality...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I hope you didn't think I was valuing your marriage any less than mine because I'm not...good luck to you and your husband in the fight for equality...[/quote]
Sorry... Didn't think you were.
The last few days have, understandably, put me on talking-point mode.
I think those are all short term statistics. It will end up just where marriage is for heteros because it is all the same and people are people.
I have no idea at all what you mean by this.
I think what cincybearcat is saying is that gay or straight, people are people and divorce will happen. The rate may be lower now but as years go by it will even out. Just human nature.
Yes, that is what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it better.
So it's only not a competition because it's one that the straight Christians wouldn't win. TRUST me... if it were the other way around... you would hear about that EVERY time the subject came up.
But communities and cultures are different. Straight girls are told their whole lives growing up that their marriage is the most important and best day of their lives. So for a lot of straight people... it's not a legal contract about rights and protections, it's about family legacy and religion and tradition and "something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue" with 2 hours of toasts and first dances and throwing a bouquet.
I can promise you that I have been to about 20 gay weddings and 10 lesbian weddings and I have NEVER seen a first dance, the "old-new-borrowed-blue" thing or a bouquet... thrown or otherwise.
(we also don't say "you may now kiss the bride." Or play "here comes the bride." Or wear white.
Argh! Again, it's not about winning - and where do straight Christian women come into this? I come from a Jewish-Persian-German background (first two hyphenates sort of dominated my upbringing). It was very much about finding a "nice man - doctor, lawyer - who will provide well". The weddings over the fucking top, ridiculous to me. I've never wanted that. Many in my family, those of my generation and younger, went a much lower-key route.
Not saying the things you mention don't happen, but I think that's been toned down some much as the views toward the LGBT community have changed in the same timeframe (last 15 -20 years).
At least, I hope so. And I hope that entire groups - or the majority - aren't viewed as the same, for better or worse. Those cultures and communities are changing, evolving - from what I've seen, anyway. Thankfully so.
A. Then let it be a legally binding contract from lawyers and keep the government out of it. All I was saying was let the government allow for 2 people to be able to obtain the same "benefits"....which I'm not convinced they can't already.
B. Isn't the determination of who can be on a health insurance plan up to the employer or the insurance agency? I wasn't aware that was something the government determined, but I could be wrong. Prior to Obamasurance, there were plenty of companies and jobs where no insurance was offered to anyone so I'm not sure I get the whole health insurance angle.
...
Larger Federal benefits under some programs if married, (I highlighted to ones concerning Insurance for your benefit): Continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits.
Medicaid.
Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Right to inheritance of property.
Family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison.
Next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims.
Making spousal medical decisions.
Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation.
Custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce.
employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; Continued commissary privileges.
Per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocatingveteran's disability.
Supplemental Security Income.
Property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans.
Income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates.
Wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax.
Joint filing of bankruptcy permitted.
...
I think that either you and your wife should forfeit these Federal Benefits... or that Gay couples should get them, too.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Right to inheritance of property.
.....
Property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans.
Income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates.
Wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax.
Joint filing of bankruptcy permitted.
I'm surprised marriage hasn't been completely outlawed by our government.
Comments
The Supreme Court doesn't generally like overturning decisions like that and just about every legal expert who saw the arguments and questions has said that it looks very likely that they will allow Judge Walker's ruling to stand.
That was 5 years ago and the Mormonazis poured tens of millions of dollars into it. They Mormons got burned very badly in the fallout from that and the raw, seething hatred that they stirred up has only grown more deeply-rooted. They're not getting involved like that again.
Back then it was easy for those people to confuse people into thinking that Prop 8 was about teaching kindergarteners about "gay marriage." They filled the airwaves with lots of terrified looking children saying "What does marriage mean to ME?"
That shit won't fly anymore. They tried it in the last election and lost all four ballot measures.
And marriage equality now has a 64% support in California. It's going away no matter what.
that is awesome to hear
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I think those are all short term statistics. It will end up just where marriage is for heteros because it is all the same and people are people.
That makes sense, especially when you factor that for gay couples there is no equivalent of "oh shit birth control failed and there is a baby on the way, we better get married" which probably leads to a ton of really poorly thought out marriages that don't really last among hetero couples (especially for teens). If you eliminated all of those marriages, I bet the divorce rate would be much lower.
I have no idea at all what you mean by this.
Oh for sure. The "Shotgun Wedding" I'm sure accounts for a lot of marriages. And there are some women (sorry, but not a lot of men) who will marry just so they have someone to look after them.
There are a lot of people in the south who feel society's pressure to get married and there are all kinds of factors that push straight couples to get married out of some odd sense of duty.
Gay people... we don't really have those pressures or expectations.
And who do you think is likely to stay married longer... the couple who do it while drunk in Las Vegas impulsively or the two lesbians who've been together for 20 years and have fought in the courts for the right to get married? Who do you think really wants it more?
Now... once it's legal for a generation or so... that may change. But I know that especially with the men in my group of friends... marriage isn't something that they feel pressured to do. Among my group of friends, there are three married couples. PLUS there are a few couples who've been together for years and still live in separate houses and don't obsess about marriage and all that it brings. It's.... different for guys, I guess.
It's not a competition between straight and gay people regarding longevity of the marriage. There are impulsive people all over, just as there are those who are willing to work at it. There are idiots all over, just as there are those who actually live by the credo of for better or worse, sickness and health, etc.
The actual act of legal marriage aside (and I get that's the topic at hand but this relates to my point), whether they're straight or gay is really inconsequential.
As was said, people are people.
I think what cincybearcat is saying is that gay or straight, people are people and divorce will happen. The rate may be lower now but as years go by it will even out. Just human nature.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Well... to be fair... back in the 90s, that was one of the big "talking points" was that "gays are incapable of long-term relationships and allowing us to marry would mean "opening up drive-thru wedding chapels on every corner."
So it's only not a competition because it's one that the straight Christians wouldn't win. TRUST me... if it were the other way around... you would hear about that EVERY time the subject came up.
Agree 100%
But communities and cultures are different. Straight girls are told their whole lives growing up that their marriage is the most important and best day of their lives. So for a lot of straight people... it's not a legal contract about rights and protections, it's about family legacy and religion and tradition and "something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue" with 2 hours of toasts and first dances and throwing a bouquet.
I can promise you that I have been to about 20 gay weddings and 10 lesbian weddings and I have NEVER seen a first dance, the "old-new-borrowed-blue" thing or a bouquet... thrown or otherwise.
(we also don't say "you may now kiss the bride." Or play "here comes the bride." Or wear white.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Well until your husband dies and his family comes and kicks you out of the house you've had together for 20 years and you end up homeless (which happens often).
Or your husband is deported.
Or you raise a family together with him working and you staying at home and he dies and you're jobless and without income (you don't get his survivor benefits).
Or you're told you can't make his health care decisions when he's in a coma... you can't even come into intensive care. And they won't even tell you when he dies. Because you're "not family."
then it kinda matters.
I'm in full support of marriage equality. I believe there are far more important issue's for the government and people to worry about. To clarify my statement we don't need to worry about who divorce who more often, that's all I'm saying.
As I stated I am for full equality ... the stuff you mentioned that can happen is wrong. I'm know you love your husband as much as I love my wife and you should be able to make all those decisions that I can make and I hope some day you can.
I hope you didn't think I was valuing your marriage any less than mine because I'm not...good luck to you and your husband in the fight for equality...
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I hope you didn't think I was valuing your marriage any less than mine because I'm not...good luck to you and your husband in the fight for equality...[/quote]
Sorry... Didn't think you were.
The last few days have, understandably, put me on talking-point mode.
Yes, that is what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it better.
Not saying the things you mention don't happen, but I think that's been toned down some much as the views toward the LGBT community have changed in the same timeframe (last 15 -20 years).
At least, I hope so. And I hope that entire groups - or the majority - aren't viewed as the same, for better or worse. Those cultures and communities are changing, evolving - from what I've seen, anyway. Thankfully so.
Larger Federal benefits under some programs if married, (I highlighted to ones concerning Insurance for your benefit):
Continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits.
Medicaid.
Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Right to inheritance of property.
Family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison.
Next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims.
Making spousal medical decisions.
Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation.
Custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce.
employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; Continued commissary privileges.
Per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocatingveteran's disability.
Supplemental Security Income.
Property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans.
Income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates.
Wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax.
Joint filing of bankruptcy permitted.
...
I think that either you and your wife should forfeit these Federal Benefits... or that Gay couples should get them, too.
Hail, Hail!!!
:shock:
:fp: