You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
if my brother for example was sitting there and saw a grown ass man assault & call names of a nasty foul manner to this mother and child & the grown ass man physically assaulted the baby & the mom was horrified in distress ... forget about it. my brother is a fucking brutal animal compared to me.
he'd be just short of setting this piece of shit on fire & cooking the dude's very own testicles over his flaming corpse. then he'd break his frickin jaw for eem. then the plane would land & my brother would be on his way no questions asked.
if he did do this ... then let the courts deal with him ... but isn't he innocent till proven guilty?
He'll get his day in court... it's kind of hard to deny, though, when you have first hand accounts of a guy slapping a baby in the face.
Actually, it's very possible that his day in court will get him off because he paid big bucks for a scumbag attorney to get him off. There's no justice in U.S. law; it's all about the attorneys and their unscrupulous and dirty ways of winning a case.
if he did do this ... then let the courts deal with him ... but isn't he innocent till proven guilty?
He'll get his day in court... it's kind of hard to deny, though, when you have first hand accounts of a guy slapping a baby in the face.
Actually, it's very possible that his day in court will get him off because he paid big bucks for a scumbag attorney to get him off. There's no justice in U.S. law; it's all about the attorneys and their unscrupulous and dirty ways of winning a case.
To ensure he understood the displeasure of those around him for his general obscenity... this is another reason why someone should have seized the moment and grabbed his neck for a quick 'wringing' and maybe a slap or two straight across the ears. Follow it up with a good, loud, and stern "Hey! That's enough!" Make sure spittle is flying from the mouth and landing on his face as you try to calm the situation.
Afterwards, you tell the authorities you just wanted to prevent any further abuse towards the child and you certainly never meant the man no harm. One part true... one part not so much.
If everyone else is doing their part... they corroborate the story and... perfection: asshole gets his neck wrung- face possibly slapped as well- and a brutal judicial system is denied the opportunity to act brutally!
To ensure he understood the displeasure of those around him for his general obscenity... this is another reason why someone should have seized the moment and grabbed his neck for a quick 'wringing' and maybe a slap or two straight across the ears. Follow it up with a good, loud, and stern "Hey! That's enough!" Make sure spittle is flying from the mouth and landing on his face as you try to calm the situation.
Afterwards, you tell the authorities you just wanted to prevent any further abuse towards the child and you certainly never meant the man no harm. One part true... one part not so much.
If everyone else is doing their part... they corroborate the story and... perfection: asshole gets his neck wrung- face possibly slapped as well- and a brutal judicial system is denied the opportunity to act brutally!
if he did do this ... then let the courts deal with him ... but isn't he innocent till proven guilty?
He'll get his day in court... it's kind of hard to deny, though, when you have first hand accounts of a guy slapping a baby in the face.
Actually, it's very possible that his day in court will get him off because he paid big bucks for a scumbag attorney to get him off. There's no justice in U.S. law; it's all about the attorneys and their unscrupulous and dirty ways of winning a case.
As an American attorney, I'd take offense to that if I thought it was based on anything other than some limited personal experience or some shit you saw on TV. Good grief.
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As an American attorney, I'd take offense to that if I thought it was based on anything other than some limited personal experience or some shit you saw on TV. Good grief.
Van...
Don't take JW's coimments to heart. I have read many of your comments. You come across as a very reasonable person and someone who is decent and honourable. I really do not want to come across as too confrontational (lest I face a defammation suit ), but among other items, you fight two things that keep people from gushing for your profession- and speaking ill of it on occasion:
1. In every trial situation... one lawyer is a 'good' lawyer and one lawyer is a 'prick' lawyer depending on each person's individual investment in the case. It's hard to fall in love with a lawyer that attacks some victim on the witness stand trying to make the guilty person they are defending seem less guilty unless you are in the accused's camp.
2. Lawyers have quite the little 'industry' to work in. Only they can do the work and it's quite fair to say that the fees for this work are just a little excessive. To deny this would be absurd- I know firsthand what fees one has to pay (in Canada). To be frank, they are unreasonable and unfair. I have also been led to believe that legal fees are more in the US- if this is so... well... good career choice!
Regardless... we need to stay on good terms. If I ever do slap some racist, crusty old man for striking a child on a plane... I'll be sending you a pm!
if he did do this ... then let the courts deal with him ... but isn't he innocent till proven guilty?
He'll get his day in court... it's kind of hard to deny, though, when you have first hand accounts of a guy slapping a baby in the face.
Actually, it's very possible that his day in court will get him off because he paid big bucks for a scumbag attorney to get him off. There's no justice in U.S. law; it's all about the attorneys and their unscrupulous and dirty ways of winning a case.
He'll get his day in court... it's kind of hard to deny, though, when you have first hand accounts of a guy slapping a baby in the face.
Actually, it's very possible that his day in court will get him off because he paid big bucks for a scumbag attorney to get him off. There's no justice in U.S. law; it's all about the attorneys and their unscrupulous and dirty ways of winning a case.
As an American attorney, I'd take offense to that if I thought it was based on anything other than some limited personal experience or some shit you saw on TV. Good grief.
The AMT's an interesting place ... supposedly everyone is so open minded ... they are convicting this guy and sentencing this guy based on a newspaper article ... and this is why people need attorney's. I say if he did do it then the courts will deal with him the best way they can as of now he's innocent until proven guilty, at least I'd like to think that is 1 right people haven't lost yet.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
. . . Joe Rickey Hundley, 60, took matters into his own hand, according to an FBI probe. Aboard a flight from Minneapolis to Atlanta, a reportedly intoxicated Hundley did not enjoy the wailing from the 19-month-old son of Jessica Bennett, the woman sitting next to him, as the plane was descending. So after demanding that Bennett “shut that n****r baby up,” Hundley allegedly slapped the child across the face, leaving a scratch under the tot’s right eye. Hundley denies both the slap and the slur, but he's been charged with simple assault. [Source]
Saw this minutes ago on our local news, an adorable baby, family.
Hope the judge first throws the book at him and then gets him some alcohol
and sensitivity counseling. Just hateful.
My mouth dropped open when I saw this on the news. Hard to imagine anyone would be unhinged enough to do that... and in 3 seconds, the man ruins his life.... good! What a nut case. We don't need racist people on such a hair trigger walking around anonymously.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
He'll get his day in court... it's kind of hard to deny, though, when you have first hand accounts of a guy slapping a baby in the face.
Actually, it's very possible that his day in court will get him off because he paid big bucks for a scumbag attorney to get him off. There's no justice in U.S. law; it's all about the attorneys and their unscrupulous and dirty ways of winning a case.
As an American attorney, I'd take offense to that if I thought it was based on anything other than some limited personal experience or some shit you saw on TV. Good grief.
It's based on a law class that I was taking. The attorney teaching the class pretty much admitted it, which solidified my change of mind that law was what I wanted to get into. There are some very noble and good attorneys out there, fighting for the good fight. I follow a few environmental justice sites and know that there are good attorneys out there (probably like yourself). But the dirty ones ruin the whole system for me, and makes me not want to get involved at all. The ones who would take up this man's case (in the OP) for instance.
It's based on a law class that I was taking. The attorney teaching the class pretty much admitted it, which solidified my change of mind that law was what I wanted to get into. There are some very noble and good attorneys out there, fighting for the good fight. I follow a few environmental justice sites and know that there are good attorneys out there (probably like yourself). But the dirty ones ruin the whole system for me, and makes me not want to get involved at all. The ones who would take up this man's case (in the OP) for instance.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the legal system. I went to law school, graduated with a degree in law and subsequently became an elementary school teacher .
the executive is no longer employeed by the company. good bye asshole. you just shit canned a killer fucking job. you look like you should retire anyway you old bastard. and by the way, you do look like someone you drinks a lot. hope it was worth it you goofy ass old man with a spineless fucking back. you, sir, are not even a solid turd. diarreha head old prick = you. all that & you are a racist. pick on someone your own damn size. you are a bully, a racist & a drunk & you are sooo fucking stupid you just lost your killer fucking executive seat. you're a frickin troll
It's based on a law class that I was taking. The attorney teaching the class pretty much admitted it, which solidified my change of mind that law was what I wanted to get into. There are some very noble and good attorneys out there, fighting for the good fight. I follow a few environmental justice sites and know that there are good attorneys out there (probably like yourself). But the dirty ones ruin the whole system for me, and makes me not want to get involved at all. The ones who would take up this man's case (in the OP) for instance.
It's irrelevant whether this guy is a piece of shit or not (I have no doubt he is). The fact that an attorney would represent him is not an example of injustice or what's "wrong" with the system but instead an example of everything that's right with the American system. John Adams defended British soldiers. Was he a "dirty" lawyer because he took on extremely unpopular clients?
I'm surprised that someone who's taken a law class or two would fail to see how dangerously close to tyranny our country would be if the right to an attorney or representation - especially for the worst people - was thrown out the window every time a sensational and disgusting crime was committed.
You seem to be confusing what this guy did (my argument says nothing of the likelihood that everything alleged is 100% true) with whether he deserves an attorney or not. Let's not let emotions get in the way of our most cherished, relevant and vital American legal traditions.
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Don't take JW's coimments to heart. I have read many of your comments. You come across as a very reasonable person and someone who is decent and honourable. I really do not want to come across as too confrontational (lest I face a defammation suit ), but among other items, you fight two things that keep people from gushing for your profession- and speaking ill of it on occasion:
1. In every trial situation... one lawyer is a 'good' lawyer and one lawyer is a 'prick' lawyer depending on each person's individual investment in the case. It's hard to fall in love with a lawyer that attacks some victim on the witness stand trying to make the guilty person they are defending seem less guilty unless you are in the accused's camp.
2. Lawyers have quite the little 'industry' to work in. Only they can do the work and it's quite fair to say that the fees for this work are just a little excessive. To deny this would be absurd- I know firsthand what fees one has to pay (in Canada). To be frank, they are unreasonable and unfair. I have also been led to believe that legal fees are more in the US- if this is so... well... good career choice!
Regardless... we need to stay on good terms. If I ever do slap some racist, crusty old man for striking a child on a plane... I'll be sending you a pm!
Thanks Thirty, I appreciate the comments. I did not take the comments to heart (as a criminal prosecutor/child protection lawyer by trade, much, much worse has been slung my way.
What I do take issue with is the uniquely American rush to judgment that seeps into conversations every time something like this happens. Its natural to want to wring the guy's neck and I'm not here to tell anyone what they can and can't do. But let's not throw away our most important legal protections for the sake of sticking it to some shit bag. By ensuring this guy's rights are respected, hard as it may be, we end up protecting the rest of us. I could've stated that more articulately, but I'm watching the latest Portlandia.
As for the trial comments, believe it or not, trials aren't as nasty as TV might make them seem. People think that defense attorneys are dirtballs who cross-examine toddler rape victims into tears. Sure, there are really vicious attorneys out there, but many can do their job well and do it civilly too. I see it every day.
As for our market corner, I can tell you two things, based on my own work experience: criminal law is much, much different than civil litigation. We go to trial more often and get paid a lot less. Go figure. As for excessive or unreasonable fees, it's just like with scalping or flipping PJ items (hey! PJ connection!). They're not unreasonable or excessive so long as clients continue to pay them willingly, and further, many clients often have no concept of what a "reasonable" fee should be or how much work actually goes into accomplishing their goals.
It's just a tired, tired point that people make when they again drag out the old "lawyers rip people off" line of thinking. Its usually based on some boisterous headline about lawyers' fees in some huge corporate merger or litigation, and often very, very far removed from what a great majority of lawyers do on a daily basis. On top of that, legal services, like any service, is a market industry. If people are so fed up with being ripped off by lawyers, then they can easily shop around and drive prices down (there are a lot of us, remember?). But people continue to write those checks, so I'm thinking the unreasonableness idea is as much a figment of people's desire to bitch about having to pay for anything as it is about the fee actually being unreasonable. Another thing people never seem to discuss is how lawyer's fees are right on par with any other professional service (i.e. mental health, medicine etc). Perhaps they seem unreasonable because law is often so high conflict? :think:
But what do I know? I'm a criminal law attorney and don't make any money. Ultimately, let's not throw away the Bill of Rights because some racist prick slapped a kid. Even this guy deserves the right to an attorney.
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Ok so... I'm not defending what they say he did... I wasn't there and don't know.
I know that I've made a few very bad judgement calls when four scotches in the bag and I'm glad few were around to witness them.
But the way people are carrying on like an angry pitchfork-carrying mob is a bit... Over the top.
I find the way people are celebrating how he's lost his job, his life, his future, his credibility and is being pulled out in the digital age version of being out in the stocks in the public square a bit disturbing. Especially since there hasn't even been a trial yet.
And I'm not an attorney, I'm a porn director... Even I can see this story is a bit bigger than it really needs to be.
Ok so... I'm not defending what they say he did... I wasn't there and don't know.
I know that I've made a few very bad judgement calls when four scotches in the bag and I'm glad few were around to witness them.
But the way people are carrying on like an angry pitchfork-carrying mob is a bit... Over the top.
I find the way people are celebrating how he's lost his job, his life, his future, his credibility and is being pulled out in the digital age version of being out in the stocks in the public square a bit disturbing. Especially since there hasn't even been a trial yet.
And I'm not an attorney, I'm a porn director... Even I can see this story is a bit bigger than it really needs to be.
Prince...
We are all going on what we know from multiple witnesses who have expressed shock and indignation for the event. This guy slapped someone's infant and yelled racial obscenities. Now, he's reaping what he has sown.
To me... this act clearly reveals the 'tip of the iceberg' for this individual. One has to have some strong anti-sentiments to lash out as he did in a public forum. His company doesn't want anything to do with him after the act and I can't blame them. People are angry and justifiably so.
I'm surprised that you have come to a mild defence for such vile behaviour. I'm assuming that if this was some asshole that assaulted a gay man in a similar manner... you would be outraged. There can be zero tolerance for such behaviour.
With that said... if the eyewitness accounts prove to be false and this guy actually did not strike this woman's child across the face making him bleed while calling hima n****r baby... then we all need to apologize with hat in hand.
What I do take issue with is the uniquely American rush to judgment that seeps into conversations every time something like this happens. Its natural to want to wring the guy's neck and I'm not here to tell anyone what they can and can't do. But let's not throw away our most important legal protections for the sake of sticking it to some shit bag. By ensuring this guy's rights are respected, hard as it may be, we end up protecting the rest of us. I could've stated that more articulately, but I'm watching the latest Portlandia.
You've made some great points in this thread, with perhaps the above - especially the bolded part - being the most important (to me). Kinda like free speech - protect it for all, even when the speech is vile - because if we silence one, we can silence all.
The brother of my brother-in-law was a public defender out here for a number of years; his view was very similar to yours. He's among those in my life I consider decent and honorable. He's now the Asst. AG in his state going against Medicare fraud.
As for our market corner, I can tell you two things, based on my own work experience: criminal law is much, much different than civil litigation. We go to trial more often and get paid a lot less. Go figure. As for excessive or unreasonable fees, it's just like with scalping or flipping PJ items (hey! PJ connection!). They're not unreasonable or excessive so long as clients continue to pay them willingly, and further, many clients often have no concept of what a "reasonable" fee should be or how much work actually goes into accomplishing their goals.
It's just a tired, tired point that people make when they again drag out the old "lawyers rip people off" line of thinking. Its usually based on some boisterous headline about lawyers' fees in some huge corporate merger or litigation, and often very, very far removed from what a great majority of lawyers do on a daily basis. On top of that, legal services, like any service, is a market industry. If people are so fed up with being ripped off by lawyers, then they can easily shop around and drive prices down (there are a lot of us, remember?). But people continue to write those checks, so I'm thinking the unreasonableness idea is as much a figment of people's desire to bitch about having to pay for anything as it is about the fee actually being unreasonable. Another thing people never seem to discuss is how lawyer's fees are right on par with any other professional service (i.e. mental health, medicine etc). Perhaps they seem unreasonable because law is often so high conflict? :think:
But what do I know? I'm a criminal law attorney and don't make any money. Ultimately, let's not throw away the Bill of Rights because some racist prick slapped a kid. Even this guy deserves the right to an attorney.
We don't need to argue about this. As I said before, I like your posts and I have much respect for your profession, but this was what I was getting at when I posted my initial comment. In a lot of cases- including one I am very familiar with- it's not a case of people willingly paying the fees: it's a case of people forced to pay the fees. If one is facing a hostile lawyer and uninformed regarding court proceedings... one needs a lawyer to defend themselves... or get buried. It's truly a captive market.
This is true: I used to golf with a lawyer who defended a horrific child murderer that killed her own kids. After a brief conversation where he spoke vaguely about the proceedings... I asked him how he managed to defend her without wanting to punch her in the face. He responded, "You'd be surprised. She's not that bad a person."
Really?
You spoke quite eloquently regarding the need to defend all accused and I fully agree with your sentiments; however, it's hard not to feel at odds with the comment that was uttered to me while walking down the fairway.
For the record Thirty, this is completely a genuine, well-intended/received discussion on my end. I'm not arguing out of anger or anything like that. So...
You are right, however again, it's no more a captive market than say, doctors or therapists or dentists or any other professional service. (In fact, doctors receive the full support of federal/state governments in the markets!). People turn to lawyers because they don't want to get "buried" in a process without the help of a professional, for the same reason people turn to doctors because they don't want to get "buried" in a process without the help of a...well, you get the idea. Lawyers don't have any more of a monopoly on a particular professional service than other specialized, highly technical professions, but we get the bad rap. (And if you don't think those other professions command a whopping hourly rate, do the math.) Trust me, I don't lose sleep over this at all, but I do think people arbitrarily look at lawyers as being any worse than doctors etc, because lawyers happen to work in a high conflict field. I've said it before, but everyone hates a lawyer...until they need one. Then, they willingly pay whatever it takes. Happens all the time...
I used to golf with a lawyer who defended a horrific child murderer that killed her own kids. After a brief conversation where he spoke vaguely about the proceedings... I asked him how he managed to defend her without wanting to punch her in the face.
Your friend's answer misses the mark, because the answer to this question ("how can you defend that person?" etc) lies in everything I explained above about why this guy, of all people, deserves the right to an attorney and a vigorous defense.
For a very interesting and easy read, check out Mickey Sherman's book How Can You Defend Those People? Mickey Sherman is a very well known and arrogant (haha!) attorney, but he makes some very good points in answering this question.
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I'm assuming that if this was some asshole that assaulted a gay man in a similar manner... you would be outraged. There can be zero tolerance for such behaviour.
Well... except even when that happens, I always wait for everything to come out. Because I have been burned many times jumping to the defense of a gay man claiming he was the victim of a hate crime when in fact, he wasn't.
I've read a bit about it and although there are a lot of people who were aware of him being drunk, being rude... nobody says they actually saw him slap the baby that I've seen reported yet. To be fair... I haven't done that much research. But still... I'm always a bit worried to go in guns blazing at such an atrocity when I get the first version of the story because I'm later often having to eat shit.
For the record Thirty, this is completely a genuine, well-intended/received discussion on my end. I'm not arguing out of anger or anything like that.
Vant,
I appreciate your approach in this discussion and I hope I have come across as intended as well. This might even be in the wrong thread, but for the sake of discussion... I'll persist for a bit!
Your points are well-taken. My kid gets his braces off tomorrow: I'm well aware of how much an orthodontist charges and... yes... he's the only one who could have fixed those snaggle teeth (they are all better now!). Everytime I take the vehicles into the shop... I act like I really know what the hell they are saying and what they need to do: but as you have said... I'm at their mercy! They, and only they, can fix my automobile.
Consider the following: there was a case in our province where a couple had a trailer, kidnapped some children, and filmed child pornography. They went to trial and were convicted. The evidence was damning. Of course, then the appeal process began to take shape. The publically funded defence attorney felt that 12 years (it might have even been less if memory serves me correct) was too much time to serve for the woman who was a first time offender. Many of the public felt that a noose would have been more appropriate for this woman, yet the public defender- having already defended her to the best of his abilities- was 'going the extra mile' by making a case for this ghoul.
Given the scenario I described... I would ask the following of you: is it ethical to persist in such an endeavour? I mean, guilt was established, consequences were administered, and now... on the public dime... the accused is seeking to have a lesser sentence when most feel it was hardly enough. Wouldn't it be right around this point that an attorney might begin to feel compromised? To what end does an attorney owe someone their services?
As for your book recommendation: you mentioned that it was an easy read. What do you mean by this? Have I come across as an illiterate buffoon that needs a comic book to understand the significance of the right to a defence?
I'm always a bit worried to go in guns blazing at such an atrocity when I get the first version of the story because I'm later often having to eat shit.
You are right here. What you say is very true and certainly worthy of noting. I'll confess to have jumped in 'guns blazing'. I guess I bought the story as it was relayed to me through the media- which, of course, can put a slant on things that may not completely tell the whole story.
To my defence, it seems a pretty open and shut case; but with that said: in reality, his company might have done better to suspend the guy until conclusive proof had been delivered. And, society might have done better to stand around and wait for a guilty verdict before attacking him with our pitchforks.
Ok so... I'm not defending what they say he did... I wasn't there and don't know.
I know that I've made a few very bad judgement calls when four scotches in the bag and I'm glad few were around to witness them.
But the way people are carrying on like an angry pitchfork-carrying mob is a bit... Over the top.
I find the way people are celebrating how he's lost his job, his life, his future, his credibility and is being pulled out in the digital age version of being out in the stocks in the public square a bit disturbing. Especially since there hasn't even been a trial yet.
And I'm not an attorney, I'm a porn director... Even I can see this story is a bit bigger than it really needs to be.
We have common ground here.
I know companies can fire anyone at any time for any reason, but I don't understand why they gave him the axe so quickly.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
It's so sad racism still exists in this country.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
he'd be just short of setting this piece of shit on fire & cooking the dude's very own testicles over his flaming corpse. then he'd break his frickin jaw for eem. then the plane would land & my brother would be on his way no questions asked.
happens all the time actually.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Actually, it's very possible that his day in court will get him off because he paid big bucks for a scumbag attorney to get him off. There's no justice in U.S. law; it's all about the attorneys and their unscrupulous and dirty ways of winning a case.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
To ensure he understood the displeasure of those around him for his general obscenity... this is another reason why someone should have seized the moment and grabbed his neck for a quick 'wringing' and maybe a slap or two straight across the ears. Follow it up with a good, loud, and stern "Hey! That's enough!" Make sure spittle is flying from the mouth and landing on his face as you try to calm the situation.
Afterwards, you tell the authorities you just wanted to prevent any further abuse towards the child and you certainly never meant the man no harm. One part true... one part not so much.
If everyone else is doing their part... they corroborate the story and... perfection: asshole gets his neck wrung- face possibly slapped as well- and a brutal judicial system is denied the opportunity to act brutally!
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
As an American attorney, I'd take offense to that if I thought it was based on anything other than some limited personal experience or some shit you saw on TV. Good grief.
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Van...
Don't take JW's coimments to heart. I have read many of your comments. You come across as a very reasonable person and someone who is decent and honourable. I really do not want to come across as too confrontational (lest I face a defammation suit
1. In every trial situation... one lawyer is a 'good' lawyer and one lawyer is a 'prick' lawyer depending on each person's individual investment in the case. It's hard to fall in love with a lawyer that attacks some victim on the witness stand trying to make the guilty person they are defending seem less guilty unless you are in the accused's camp.
2. Lawyers have quite the little 'industry' to work in. Only they can do the work and it's quite fair to say that the fees for this work are just a little excessive. To deny this would be absurd- I know firsthand what fees one has to pay (in Canada). To be frank, they are unreasonable and unfair. I have also been led to believe that legal fees are more in the US- if this is so... well... good career choice!
Regardless... we need to stay on good terms. If I ever do slap some racist, crusty old man for striking a child on a plane... I'll be sending you a pm!
.
The AMT's an interesting place ... supposedly everyone is so open minded ... they are convicting this guy and sentencing this guy based on a newspaper article ... and this is why people need attorney's. I say if he did do it then the courts will deal with him the best way they can as of now he's innocent until proven guilty, at least I'd like to think that is 1 right people haven't lost yet.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
if he did it your right ... but he is entitled to do process.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Hope the judge first throws the book at him and then gets him some alcohol
and sensitivity counseling. Just hateful.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
It's based on a law class that I was taking. The attorney teaching the class pretty much admitted it, which solidified my change of mind that law was what I wanted to get into. There are some very noble and good attorneys out there, fighting for the good fight. I follow a few environmental justice sites and know that there are good attorneys out there (probably like yourself). But the dirty ones ruin the whole system for me, and makes me not want to get involved at all. The ones who would take up this man's case (in the OP) for instance.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the legal system. I went to law school, graduated with a degree in law and subsequently became an elementary school teacher
just a start
he worked for a company that makes plane parts
"what a long, strange trip it's been"
you smell
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
It's irrelevant whether this guy is a piece of shit or not (I have no doubt he is). The fact that an attorney would represent him is not an example of injustice or what's "wrong" with the system but instead an example of everything that's right with the American system. John Adams defended British soldiers. Was he a "dirty" lawyer because he took on extremely unpopular clients?
I'm surprised that someone who's taken a law class or two would fail to see how dangerously close to tyranny our country would be if the right to an attorney or representation - especially for the worst people - was thrown out the window every time a sensational and disgusting crime was committed.
You seem to be confusing what this guy did (my argument says nothing of the likelihood that everything alleged is 100% true) with whether he deserves an attorney or not. Let's not let emotions get in the way of our most cherished, relevant and vital American legal traditions.
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Thanks Thirty, I appreciate the comments. I did not take the comments to heart (as a criminal prosecutor/child protection lawyer by trade, much, much worse has been slung my way.
What I do take issue with is the uniquely American rush to judgment that seeps into conversations every time something like this happens. Its natural to want to wring the guy's neck and I'm not here to tell anyone what they can and can't do. But let's not throw away our most important legal protections for the sake of sticking it to some shit bag. By ensuring this guy's rights are respected, hard as it may be, we end up protecting the rest of us. I could've stated that more articulately, but I'm watching the latest Portlandia.
As for the trial comments, believe it or not, trials aren't as nasty as TV might make them seem. People think that defense attorneys are dirtballs who cross-examine toddler rape victims into tears. Sure, there are really vicious attorneys out there, but many can do their job well and do it civilly too. I see it every day.
As for our market corner, I can tell you two things, based on my own work experience: criminal law is much, much different than civil litigation. We go to trial more often and get paid a lot less. Go figure. As for excessive or unreasonable fees, it's just like with scalping or flipping PJ items (hey! PJ connection!). They're not unreasonable or excessive so long as clients continue to pay them willingly, and further, many clients often have no concept of what a "reasonable" fee should be or how much work actually goes into accomplishing their goals.
It's just a tired, tired point that people make when they again drag out the old "lawyers rip people off" line of thinking. Its usually based on some boisterous headline about lawyers' fees in some huge corporate merger or litigation, and often very, very far removed from what a great majority of lawyers do on a daily basis. On top of that, legal services, like any service, is a market industry. If people are so fed up with being ripped off by lawyers, then they can easily shop around and drive prices down (there are a lot of us, remember?). But people continue to write those checks, so I'm thinking the unreasonableness idea is as much a figment of people's desire to bitch about having to pay for anything as it is about the fee actually being unreasonable. Another thing people never seem to discuss is how lawyer's fees are right on par with any other professional service (i.e. mental health, medicine etc). Perhaps they seem unreasonable because law is often so high conflict? :think:
But what do I know? I'm a criminal law attorney and don't make any money.
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I know that I've made a few very bad judgement calls when four scotches in the bag and I'm glad few were around to witness them.
But the way people are carrying on like an angry pitchfork-carrying mob is a bit... Over the top.
I find the way people are celebrating how he's lost his job, his life, his future, his credibility and is being pulled out in the digital age version of being out in the stocks in the public square a bit disturbing. Especially since there hasn't even been a trial yet.
And I'm not an attorney, I'm a porn director... Even I can see this story is a bit bigger than it really needs to be.
Prince...
We are all going on what we know from multiple witnesses who have expressed shock and indignation for the event. This guy slapped someone's infant and yelled racial obscenities. Now, he's reaping what he has sown.
To me... this act clearly reveals the 'tip of the iceberg' for this individual. One has to have some strong anti-sentiments to lash out as he did in a public forum. His company doesn't want anything to do with him after the act and I can't blame them. People are angry and justifiably so.
I'm surprised that you have come to a mild defence for such vile behaviour. I'm assuming that if this was some asshole that assaulted a gay man in a similar manner... you would be outraged. There can be zero tolerance for such behaviour.
With that said... if the eyewitness accounts prove to be false and this guy actually did not strike this woman's child across the face making him bleed while calling hima n****r baby... then we all need to apologize with hat in hand.
The brother of my brother-in-law was a public defender out here for a number of years; his view was very similar to yours. He's among those in my life I consider decent and honorable. He's now the Asst. AG in his state going against Medicare fraud.
I hope you keep on keepin on
We don't need to argue about this. As I said before, I like your posts and I have much respect for your profession, but this was what I was getting at when I posted my initial comment. In a lot of cases- including one I am very familiar with- it's not a case of people willingly paying the fees: it's a case of people forced to pay the fees. If one is facing a hostile lawyer and uninformed regarding court proceedings... one needs a lawyer to defend themselves... or get buried. It's truly a captive market.
This is true: I used to golf with a lawyer who defended a horrific child murderer that killed her own kids. After a brief conversation where he spoke vaguely about the proceedings... I asked him how he managed to defend her without wanting to punch her in the face. He responded, "You'd be surprised. She's not that bad a person."
Really?
You spoke quite eloquently regarding the need to defend all accused and I fully agree with your sentiments; however, it's hard not to feel at odds with the comment that was uttered to me while walking down the fairway.
You are right, however again, it's no more a captive market than say, doctors or therapists or dentists or any other professional service. (In fact, doctors receive the full support of federal/state governments in the markets!). People turn to lawyers because they don't want to get "buried" in a process without the help of a professional, for the same reason people turn to doctors because they don't want to get "buried" in a process without the help of a...well, you get the idea. Lawyers don't have any more of a monopoly on a particular professional service than other specialized, highly technical professions, but we get the bad rap. (And if you don't think those other professions command a whopping hourly rate, do the math.) Trust me, I don't lose sleep over this at all, but I do think people arbitrarily look at lawyers as being any worse than doctors etc, because lawyers happen to work in a high conflict field. I've said it before, but everyone hates a lawyer...until they need one. Then, they willingly pay whatever it takes. Happens all the time...
Your friend's answer misses the mark, because the answer to this question ("how can you defend that person?" etc) lies in everything I explained above about why this guy, of all people, deserves the right to an attorney and a vigorous defense.
For a very interesting and easy read, check out Mickey Sherman's book How Can You Defend Those People? Mickey Sherman is a very well known and arrogant (haha!) attorney, but he makes some very good points in answering this question.
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We'll just let those two sit next to each other and leave it at that.
Well... except even when that happens, I always wait for everything to come out. Because I have been burned many times jumping to the defense of a gay man claiming he was the victim of a hate crime when in fact, he wasn't.
I've read a bit about it and although there are a lot of people who were aware of him being drunk, being rude... nobody says they actually saw him slap the baby that I've seen reported yet. To be fair... I haven't done that much research. But still... I'm always a bit worried to go in guns blazing at such an atrocity when I get the first version of the story because I'm later often having to eat shit.
Vant,
I appreciate your approach in this discussion and I hope I have come across as intended as well. This might even be in the wrong thread, but for the sake of discussion... I'll persist for a bit!
Your points are well-taken. My kid gets his braces off tomorrow: I'm well aware of how much an orthodontist charges and... yes... he's the only one who could have fixed those snaggle teeth (they are all better now!). Everytime I take the vehicles into the shop... I act like I really know what the hell they are saying and what they need to do: but as you have said... I'm at their mercy! They, and only they, can fix my automobile.
Consider the following: there was a case in our province where a couple had a trailer, kidnapped some children, and filmed child pornography. They went to trial and were convicted. The evidence was damning. Of course, then the appeal process began to take shape. The publically funded defence attorney felt that 12 years (it might have even been less if memory serves me correct) was too much time to serve for the woman who was a first time offender. Many of the public felt that a noose would have been more appropriate for this woman, yet the public defender- having already defended her to the best of his abilities- was 'going the extra mile' by making a case for this ghoul.
Given the scenario I described... I would ask the following of you: is it ethical to persist in such an endeavour? I mean, guilt was established, consequences were administered, and now... on the public dime... the accused is seeking to have a lesser sentence when most feel it was hardly enough. Wouldn't it be right around this point that an attorney might begin to feel compromised? To what end does an attorney owe someone their services?
As for your book recommendation: you mentioned that it was an easy read. What do you mean by this? Have I come across as an illiterate buffoon that needs a comic book to understand the significance of the right to a defence?
You are right here. What you say is very true and certainly worthy of noting. I'll confess to have jumped in 'guns blazing'. I guess I bought the story as it was relayed to me through the media- which, of course, can put a slant on things that may not completely tell the whole story.
To my defence, it seems a pretty open and shut case; but with that said: in reality, his company might have done better to suspend the guy until conclusive proof had been delivered. And, society might have done better to stand around and wait for a guilty verdict before attacking him with our pitchforks.
We have common ground here.
I know companies can fire anyone at any time for any reason, but I don't understand why they gave him the axe so quickly.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.