The Extremist Cult of Capitalism

JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
edited February 2013 in A Moving Train
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/01/21


A 'cult,' according to Merriam-Webster, can be defined as "Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work..(and)..a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion."

Capitalism has been defined by adherents and detractors: Milton Friedman said, "The problem of social organization is how to set up an arrangement under which greed will do the least harm, capitalism is that kind of a system." John Maynard Keynes said, "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."

Perhaps it's best to turn to someone who actually practiced the art: "Capitalism is the legitimate racket of the ruling class." Al Capone said that.

Capitalism is a cult. It is devoted to the ideals of privatization over the common good, profit over social needs, and control by a small group of people who defy the public's will. The tenets of the cult lead to extremes rather than to compromise. Examples are not hard to find.

1. Extremes of Income

By sitting on their growing investments, the richest five Americans made almost $7 billion each in one year. That's $3,500,000.00 per hour. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13 per hour.

Our unregulated capitalist financial system allows a few well-positioned individuals to divert billions of dollars from the needs of society. If the 400 richest Americans lumped together their investment profits from last year, the total would pay in-state tuition and fees for EVERY college student in the United States.

2. Extremes of Wealth

The combined net worth of the world's 250 richest individuals is more than the total annual living expenses of almost half the world - three billion people.

Within our own borders the disparity is no less shocking. For every one dollar of assets owned by a single black or Hispanic woman, a member of the Forbes 400 has over forty million dollars. That's equivalent to a can of soup versus a mansion, a yacht, and a private jet. Most of the Forbes 400 wealth has accrued from nonproductive capital gains. It's little wonder that with the exception of Russia, Ukraine, and Lebanon, the U.S. has the highest degree of wealth inequality in the world.

3. Extremes of Debt

Up until the 1970s U.S. households had virtually no debt. Now the total is $13 trillion, which averages out to $100,000 per American family.

Debt appears to be the only recourse for 21- to 35-year-olds, who have lost, on average, 68% of their median net worth since 1984, leaving each of them about $4,000.

4. Extremes of Health Care

A butler in black vest and tie passed the atrium waterfall and entered the $2,400 suite, where the linens were provided by the high-end bedding designer Frette of Italy and the bathroom glimmered with polished marble. Inside a senior financial executive awaited his 'concierge' doctor for private treatment.

He was waiting in the penthouse suite of the New York Presbyterian Hospital.

On the streets outside were some of the 26,000 Americans who will die this year because they are without health care. In 2010, 50 million Americans had no health insurance coverage.

5. Extremes of Justice

William James Rummel stole $80 with a credit card, then passed a bad check for $24, then refused to return $120 for a repair job gone bad. He got life in prison. Christopher Williams is facing over 80 years in prison for selling medical marijuana in Montana, a state which allows medical marijuana. Patricia Spottedcrow got 12 years for a $31 marijuana sale, and has seen her children only twice in the past two years. Numerous elderly Americans are in prison for life for non-violent marijuana offenses.

Banking giant HSBC, whose mission statement urges employees "to act with courageous integrity" in all they do, was described by a U.S. Senate report as having "exposed the U.S. financial system to 'a wide array of money laundering, drug trafficking, and terrorist financing'" in their dealings with Mexico's Sinaloa cartel, which is considered the deadliest drug gang in the world.

HSBC received a fine equivalent to four weeks' profits. The bank's CEO said, "we are profoundly sorry."

In the words of Bertrand Russell, "Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate."
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Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,085
    This is a great article about some not-so great facts of life in the US. Hard to argue cold hard facts- though I'm sure that will happen here... shortly. :|
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,183
    Not defending anything, but I do have a question. Is capatalism really to blame? Isn't greed really the root of this?
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    JimmyV wrote:
    Not defending anything, but I do have a question. Is capatalism really to blame? Isn't greed really the root of this?

    Isn't greed the result of capitalism?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,085
    JimmyV wrote:
    Not defending anything, but I do have a question. Is capatalism really to blame? Isn't greed really the root of this?

    If we could remove greed from capitalism it might work. Only problem is,
    A) Is that possible? and
    B) I'm not sure that's ever happened so how would we know?
    C) A big part of capitalism is that someone is always the boss, the person holding the best hand, the person in charge. They are buyers of wage-labor and their employees are sellers of wage-labor (i.e. the notion of "wage slaves"). Some people don't want to have someone else be in charge of their life and unless that person is an "A" type personality, that can be extremely challenging.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,183
    I guess I am boiling Capitalism down to its roots: work, earn, and buy. For me it works well. I have a decent job, work hard and make a comfortable living. As a consumer I buy goods, products and services and that keeps others working. I would never say no to a raise and certainly do want to make more, but I think that is a good thing.

    I do agree that there is something out of whack at the top but I don't know if I agree that Capitalism as a system is necessarily to blame.

    Interesting debate.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,085
    JimmyV wrote:
    I guess I am boiling Capitalism down to its roots: work, earn, and buy. For me it works well. I have a decent job, work hard and make a comfortable living. As a consumer I buy goods, products and services and that keeps others working. I would never say no to a raise and certainly do want to make more, but I think that is a good thing.

    I do agree that there is something out of whack at the top but I don't know if I agree that Capitalism as a system is necessarily to blame.

    Interesting debate.

    I have my own small book business and it relies on capitalism to operate so in some ways that makes me a bit of a hypocrite. On the other hand, if everybody was good with the barter system I would be very happy. I can sort of do that by giving trade value for books brought in but I can't legally trade books for, say, your home made baked goods.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    JimmyV wrote:
    I guess I am boiling Capitalism down to its roots: work, earn, and buy. For me it works well. I have a decent job, work hard and make a comfortable living. As a consumer I buy goods, products and services and that keeps others working. I would never say no to a raise and certainly do want to make more, but I think that is a good thing.

    I do agree that there is something out of whack at the top but I don't know if I agree that Capitalism as a system is necessarily to blame.

    Interesting debate.
    Totally agree with this.

    And brian, I saw something recently about bartering companies, where people trade goods or services for same - or for cash. Makes me think though, we're still assigning value to those goods or services, no?

    Let's say there's a market for something and you can fill that niche, why not capitalize on it? If I came up with an idea, a good one, no way I wouldn't pursue it. People who go to college, earn a degree, are capitalizing upon their education and skills to make a better, even wealthy life for themselves.

    Wanting to prosper is healthy, I believe. It's when you fuck over others - or even yourself - in the process, where the problem lies. But, that could apply to almost any situation.

    Interesting, for sure...looking forward to this discussion!
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,085
    hedonist wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    I guess I am boiling Capitalism down to its roots: work, earn, and buy. For me it works well. I have a decent job, work hard and make a comfortable living. As a consumer I buy goods, products and services and that keeps others working. I would never say no to a raise and certainly do want to make more, but I think that is a good thing.

    I do agree that there is something out of whack at the top but I don't know if I agree that Capitalism as a system is necessarily to blame.

    Interesting debate.
    Totally agree with this.

    And brian, I saw something recently about bartering companies, where people trade goods or services for same - or for cash. Makes me think though, we're still assigning value to those goods or services, no?

    Let's say there's a market for something and you can fill that niche, why not capitalize on it? If I came up with an idea, a good one, no way I wouldn't pursue it. People who go to college, earn a degree, are capitalizing upon their education and skills to make a better, even wealthy life for themselves.

    Wanting to prosper is healthy, I believe. It's when you fuck over others - or even yourself - in the process, where the problem lies. But, that could apply to almost any situation.

    Interesting, for sure...looking forward to this discussion!

    I admit, that does get tricky. But it's interesting that this came up today. I just got off the phone with a friend who works in the used book business. He had told me about a book I have that I have listed for $56.00 that I would let him have for $40.00 even though the least expensive on line is going for $53 plus shipping. He said it was still more than he can afford. He's very good at listing books on line and I find it tedious at best. Since I have several books that still need listing I asked if he would trade some help listing them for the book. He thought that would be great but wanted to know how much time I wanted for him to work and I said, "Whatever works, I'm easy." He was stoke, I'm stoked. I love it!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    hedonist wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    I guess I am boiling Capitalism down to its roots: work, earn, and buy. For me it works well. I have a decent job, work hard and make a comfortable living. As a consumer I buy goods, products and services and that keeps others working. I would never say no to a raise and certainly do want to make more, but I think that is a good thing.

    I do agree that there is something out of whack at the top but I don't know if I agree that Capitalism as a system is necessarily to blame.

    Interesting debate.
    Totally agree with this.

    And brian, I saw something recently about bartering companies, where people trade goods or services for same - or for cash. Makes me think though, we're still assigning value to those goods or services, no?

    Let's say there's a market for something and you can fill that niche, why not capitalize on it? If I came up with an idea, a good one, no way I wouldn't pursue it. People who go to college, earn a degree, are capitalizing upon their education and skills to make a better, even wealthy life for themselves.

    Wanting to prosper is healthy, I believe. It's when you fuck over others - or even yourself - in the process, where the problem lies. But, that could apply to almost any situation.

    Interesting, for sure...looking forward to this discussion!

    One of the biggest problems with capitalism is assigning value. I think that, in part, this is where we've messed up. We assign the greatest value or worth to those occupations that earn US the most. For instance, the salary I made as a stock broker was far greater than the salary I make as a teacher. However, I think my contribution is far greater as a teacher. I think that assigning value is where we've fucked up. Why are we assigning this greater value to these occupations that often don't contribute as much to the greater good than others? I think this hits on other discussions we've had about the role of the indiviudal. When we decided that the individual was the most important component of modern society then capitalism made far greater sense to us but then we curse our fate as a nation that glorifies violence and greed and selfishness.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • riotgrl wrote:

    One of the biggest problems with capitalism is assigning value. I think that, in part, this is where we've messed up. We assign the greatest value or worth to those occupations that earn US the most. For instance, the salary I made as a stock broker was far greater than the salary I make as a teacher. However, I think my contribution is far greater as a teacher. I think that assigning value is where we've fucked up. Why are we assigning this greater value to these occupations that often don't contribute as much to the greater good than others? I think this hits on other discussions we've had about the role of the indiviudal. When we decided that the individual was the most important component of modern society then capitalism made far greater sense to us but then we curse our fate as a nation that glorifies violence and greed and selfishness.

    No offense, but this whole thread is bs, and this highlights it.

    Again - no offense - but anyone can be a teacher. I know. I know. You're special people. Great. But, if I wanted to, I could be a teacher without even trying. However, not everyone can be a stock broker (crook jokes aside. I'm not debating the ethics of certain individuals within a profession. I'm talking about the ability to do so successfully - nobody is arguing that there are crooks involved, and they should be ferreted out). Thereby, the valuation. Furthermore, teachers create no monetary value. So, the only way they get paid is other folks say - sure, I'll give to pay you. Well, at private instituations of higher learning, "teachers" are paid more (if they have specialized skills, etc. even moreso). Why? Because folks PAY more to go to those institutions in order to get that specialized teaching.

    Now, we can argue that there are some folks that teach for the love of it and could be doing something else. Fair enough. But, that doesn't mean the job is undervalued. When you look at socialist socieites, teachers don't make more. Those with specialized talents still make more.

    Again, sorry to be so blunt, and obviously I come off as a complete a**hole. But, if you sit back, those are the facts.

    Just like folks saying the top of capitilism is f'd up b/c someone has more than they do. Well, what do you think happens in societies that are less capitilistic? Well, the top is still disproportionately "rewarded." The main difference is that those at the top of non-capitalist societies simply take what they want. And fair enough, you could easily argue in capitilism they do, too. But, so, what? And that argues the point even better. The gov't doling out what they see fit to each person never works in the long run.

    If people stopped worrying about what OTHERS have and just achieved on their own, they'd be a lot better off. Why does it matter to me that A-Rod is rich beyond his wildest imagination? How does that effect MY daily life? Exactly. So, who give a shit? He has a specialized skill that EARNS money, so he makes money. That seems like a fair way to value things. If you paid teachers as much as you (over)paid ball players, you'd have a flooded market that would therefor lower the amount paid (that is, if you paid a million dollars a year to teachers, no offense, but 3/4ths of the current teachers would be out of jobs).

    End rant. Feel free to focus on the bits and pieces that offend you and not the overall thought.

    Capitalism isn't the problem. Actions of certain folks within that framework is. And there's no economic theory that mitigates that.

    So, call it a cult, call it some other pujorative name to make yourself feel better. But, get off your ass and achieve, and you will have all that you need.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,183
    Eh, I don't think everyone can be a teacher. I for one would never have the patience to put up with someone else's asshole kids all day.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    imo... the problem with US capitalism is that there does not exist true free markets nor a true price system althou im not even sure they can exist in a "mature" capitalistic system. most of our economy is based and dependent upon the financial sector...does anyone believe their exists free markets and true pricing within our financial sector??
    how can free market exist when private companies and government are so intertwined? the free market and pricing is skewed when the private sector goods and services are subsidized by government. there are so many examples its sickening... healthcare is probably the best example now....look what happened to the housing industry when the banks were loaning money to anyone who asked. what about right now take the sandy hook effected areas, go see what it costs to renovate your home when contractors know that fema (taxpayers) is footing the bill. are those examples of free market and true pricing??
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,085
    riotgrl wrote:

    One of the biggest problems with capitalism is assigning value. I think that, in part, this is where we've messed up. We assign the greatest value or worth to those occupations that earn US the most. For instance, the salary I made as a stock broker was far greater than the salary I make as a teacher. However, I think my contribution is far greater as a teacher. I think that assigning value is where we've fucked up. Why are we assigning this greater value to these occupations that often don't contribute as much to the greater good than others? I think this hits on other discussions we've had about the role of the indiviudal. When we decided that the individual was the most important component of modern society then capitalism made far greater sense to us but then we curse our fate as a nation that glorifies violence and greed and selfishness.

    No offense, but this whole thread is bs, and this highlights it.

    Again - no offense - but anyone can be a teacher. I know. I know. You're special people. Great. But, if I wanted to, I could be a teacher without even trying. However, not everyone can be a stock broker (crook jokes aside. I'm not debating the ethics of certain individuals within a profession. I'm talking about the ability to do so successfully - nobody is arguing that there are crooks involved, and they should be ferreted out). Thereby, the valuation. Furthermore, teachers create no monetary value. So, the only way they get paid is other folks say - sure, I'll give to pay you. Well, at private instituations of higher learning, "teachers" are paid more (if they have specialized skills, etc. even moreso). Why? Because folks PAY more to go to those institutions in order to get that specialized teaching.

    Now, we can argue that there are some folks that teach for the love of it and could be doing something else. Fair enough. But, that doesn't mean the job is undervalued. When you look at socialist socieites, teachers don't make more. Those with specialized talents still make more.

    Again, sorry to be so blunt, and obviously I come off as a complete a**hole. But, if you sit back, those are the facts.

    Just like folks saying the top of capitilism is f'd up b/c someone has more than they do. Well, what do you think happens in societies that are less capitilistic? Well, the top is still disproportionately "rewarded." The main difference is that those at the top of non-capitalist societies simply take what they want. And fair enough, you could easily argue in capitilism they do, too. But, so, what? And that argues the point even better. The gov't doling out what they see fit to each person never works in the long run.

    If people stopped worrying about what OTHERS have and just achieved on their own, they'd be a lot better off. Why does it matter to me that A-Rod is rich beyond his wildest imagination? How does that effect MY daily life? Exactly. So, who give a shit? He has a specialized skill that EARNS money, so he makes money. That seems like a fair way to value things. If you paid teachers as much as you (over)paid ball players, you'd have a flooded market that would therefor lower the amount paid (that is, if you paid a million dollars a year to teachers, no offense, but 3/4ths of the current teachers would be out of jobs).

    End rant. Feel free to focus on the bits and pieces that offend you and not the overall thought.

    Capitalism isn't the problem. Actions of certain folks within that framework is. And there's no economic theory that mitigates that.

    So, call it a cult, call it some other pujorative name to make yourself feel better. But, get off your ass and achieve, and you will have all that you need.

    Edson, I know for a fact just about anyone can be a teacher. I used to be a teacher and it never ceased to amaze me that we have some very unqualified teachers out there. But what I get from what riotgrl is saying is that a good teacher contributes more to society that a good stock broker. First of all, without an education, a person cannot become a stock broker. Secondly, a good teacher does more than impart information or prepare people for careers. A good teacher helps students learn to think critically, to think for themselves and be true to themselves.

    I read somewhere that in Japan, teachers are paid and respected the same as high ranking professionals-- doctors, lawyers and such. Here in the US we pay and acknowledge teachers as though they are baby sitters and so that's often what we get. This leaves the good teachers-- and I have no doubt riotgrl fits this description-- underpaid and under-appreciated. In my opinion, that's just wrong.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Work earn and buy!!!!! hilarious.....go preach that to the travel agents, printing presses, home furnishings, realtors, book publishers, everyone in the construction business, tourism and travel related industries and let me know how it goes.
  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,183
    JC29856 wrote:
    Work earn and buy!!!!! hilarious.....go preach that to the travel agents, printing presses, home furnishings, realtors, book publishers, everyone in the construction business, tourism and travel related industries and let me know how it goes.

    Pretty sure I wasn't preaching anything. But rant away.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    riotgrl wrote:

    One of the biggest problems with capitalism is assigning value. I think that, in part, this is where we've messed up. We assign the greatest value or worth to those occupations that earn US the most. For instance, the salary I made as a stock broker was far greater than the salary I make as a teacher. However, I think my contribution is far greater as a teacher. I think that assigning value is where we've fucked up. Why are we assigning this greater value to these occupations that often don't contribute as much to the greater good than others? I think this hits on other discussions we've had about the role of the indiviudal. When we decided that the individual was the most important component of modern society then capitalism made far greater sense to us but then we curse our fate as a nation that glorifies violence and greed and selfishness.

    Again, sorry to be so blunt, and obviously I come off as a complete a**hole.

    Yes you do.
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895

    No offense, but this whole thread is bs, and this highlights it.

    Again - no offense - but anyone can be a teacher. I know. I know. You're special people. Great. But, if I wanted to, I could be a teacher without even trying. However, not everyone can be a stock broker (crook jokes aside. I'm not debating the ethics of certain individuals within a profession. I'm talking about the ability to do so successfully - nobody is arguing that there are crooks involved, and they should be ferreted out). Thereby, the valuation. Furthermore, teachers create no monetary value. So, the only way they get paid is other folks say - sure, I'll give to pay you. Well, at private instituations of higher learning, "teachers" are paid more (if they have specialized skills, etc. even moreso). Why? Because folks PAY more to go to those institutions in order to get that specialized teaching.

    Now, we can argue that there are some folks that teach for the love of it and could be doing something else. Fair enough. But, that doesn't mean the job is undervalued. When you look at socialist socieites, teachers don't make more. Those with specialized talents still make more.

    Again, sorry to be so blunt, and obviously I come off as a complete a**hole. But, if you sit back, those are the facts.

    Just like folks saying the top of capitilism is f'd up b/c someone has more than they do. Well, what do you think happens in societies that are less capitilistic? Well, the top is still disproportionately "rewarded." The main difference is that those at the top of non-capitalist societies simply take what they want. And fair enough, you could easily argue in capitilism they do, too. But, so, what? And that argues the point even better. The gov't doling out what they see fit to each person never works in the long run.

    If people stopped worrying about what OTHERS have and just achieved on their own, they'd be a lot better off. Why does it matter to me that A-Rod is rich beyond his wildest imagination? How does that effect MY daily life? Exactly. So, who give a shit? He has a specialized skill that EARNS money, so he makes money. That seems like a fair way to value things. If you paid teachers as much as you (over)paid ball players, you'd have a flooded market that would therefor lower the amount paid (that is, if you paid a million dollars a year to teachers, no offense, but 3/4ths of the current teachers would be out of jobs).

    End rant. Feel free to focus on the bits and pieces that offend you and not the overall thought.

    Capitalism isn't the problem. Actions of certain folks within that framework is. And there's no economic theory that mitigates that.

    So, call it a cult, call it some other pujorative name to make yourself feel better. But, get off your ass and achieve, and you will have all that you need.

    Your entire argument is predicated on the notion that teaching is easy and being a broker is difficult (and really there are many other jobs that we could substitute that would fit that scenario). So explain how being a broker is more difficult? As someone who has done both, I can assure you that both careers are difficult in their own way. My point was that as a society we have valued one more than another not because one is easy and one is hard but because in a capitalist society we value money over most things. In my mind, that is precisely why you think anyone could teach but not everyone could be a broker. Again, we can't base it on the fallacy of hard work earns you wealth. Both careers are difficult but one is "valued" more highly than another. From my perspective it is because we value money over most other things. I don't understand your point about monetary valuation either. How does a broker create monetary value? Both jobs are services and not as easily quantifiable as you are trying to lead us to believe.

    And the very definition of capitalism is worrying about what someone else has so I can figure out how to get the same for myself. Competition and dog eat dog - whatever it takes to get ahead and keep the other guy down.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • I will never understand the US's obsession with it's quasi-capitalism. Inevitably, in a market driven society like the US, private and public enterprises become so intertwined that it's virtually impossible to differentiate between them. I've heard a number of individuals on this forum profess to hate big government while giving big business a free pass, yet in the US I get the distinct impression that there is very little separating public office and private business from each other. If markets were free of undue influence I could understand why some people would show strong devotion to capitalist ideals, but as it now stands it appears that your markets are constantly manipulated by politicians and the private entrepreneurs with the means to do so.

    As for many of the so-called white collared professions; they are vastly overrated and quite attainable if you travel in the right circles. Stock brokers, lawyers and accountants are a dime-a-dozen. If you have the right connections these careers are readily available and the education needed to enter any of these professions isn't particularly challenging. Moreover, your success upon graduation depends largely on the firm that you sign on with, not your competence as an individual. Brokers, lawyers and accountants are just as replaceable as teachers, police officers and nurses.
  • otterotter Posts: 760
    Please tell me where these angels are? Remind me of the groovy politicians who selflessly pine for the less fortunate.

    Greed. Is greed good? No,of course not.

    Greed is human nature, just like envy or gluttony. It is a despicable urge that should be suppressed.

    Capitalism is good. Capitalism promotes, reinforces, and rewards ingenuity and invention.

    Capitalism is a system of economics that encourages people; socialism (I assume that's what you would prefer) inhibits the natural drive of individuals until invention and ingenuity withers away with self determination.

    My point is is that capitalism is the best thing for the advancement of human happiness.

    There cannot be peace without capitalism because without it the individual will forever be suppressed by authority. :nono:
    I found my place......and it's alright
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,085
    otter wrote:
    Please tell me where these angels are? Remind me of the groovy politicians who selflessly pine for the less fortunate.

    Greed. Is greed good? No,of course not.

    Greed is human nature, just like envy or gluttony. It is a despicable urge that should be suppressed.

    Capitalism is good. Capitalism promotes, reinforces, and rewards ingenuity and invention.

    Capitalism is a system of economics that encourages people; socialism (I assume that's what you would prefer) inhibits the natural drive of individuals until invention and ingenuity withers away with self determination.

    My point is is that capitalism is the best thing for the advancement of human happiness.

    There cannot be peace without capitalism because without it the individual will forever be suppressed by authority. :nono:

    Is that it? Capitalism or Socialism? That's it?

    I think we need to look outside these narrow parameters. What about barter and trade? Local economies? What about modifying the things about capitalism or socialism that don't work well. Can we look outside the box?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    I will never understand the US's obsession with it's quasi-capitalism. Inevitably, in a market driven society like the US, private and public enterprises become so intertwined that it's virtually impossible to differentiate between them. I've heard a number of individuals on this forum profess to hate big government while giving big business a free pass, yet in the US I get the distinct impression that there is very little separating public office and private business from each other. If markets were free of undue influence I could understand why some people would show strong devotion to capitalist ideals, but as it now stands it appears that your markets are constantly manipulated by politicians and the private entrepreneurs with the means to do so.

    As for many of the so-called white collared professions; they are vastly overrated and quite attainable if you travel in the right circles. Stock brokers, lawyers and accountants are a dime-a-dozen. If you have the right connections these careers are readily available and the education needed to enter any of these professions isn't particularly challenging. Moreover, your success upon graduation depends largely on the firm that you sign on with, not your competence as an individual. Brokers, lawyers and accountants are just as replaceable as teachers, police officers and nurses.


    first part - totally agree
    second part - totally true (im living proof, the white collar world is such bullshit im embarrassed to be a part of it)
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Cool, I'm in a cult!

    Oh, yeaahh!
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    free markets...true pricing

    The idea that those who wish to profit from a rise in the price of a commodity would freely sell that commodity instead of holding, and thus squeezing, supply in order to encourage that price rise is laughable on its face. That the SEC claims such speculators are instead providing what amounts to liquidity and increased accessibility just shows they don’t care at all how ludicrous their assertions are.

    Speculation in commodities must be banned, period.
    yankeefrank

    Read more at http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/01/ ... eKM0j1C.99
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Question for anyone who wants to answer: In your opinion, were American slave owners members of this capitalist extremist cult?
  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,183
    JC29856 wrote:
    I will never understand the US's obsession with it's quasi-capitalism. Inevitably, in a market driven society like the US, private and public enterprises become so intertwined that it's virtually impossible to differentiate between them. I've heard a number of individuals on this forum profess to hate big government while giving big business a free pass, yet in the US I get the distinct impression that there is very little separating public office and private business from each other. If markets were free of undue influence I could understand why some people would show strong devotion to capitalist ideals, but as it now stands it appears that your markets are constantly manipulated by politicians and the private entrepreneurs with the means to do so.

    As for many of the so-called white collared professions; they are vastly overrated and quite attainable if you travel in the right circles. Stock brokers, lawyers and accountants are a dime-a-dozen. If you have the right connections these careers are readily available and the education needed to enter any of these professions isn't particularly challenging. Moreover, your success upon graduation depends largely on the firm that you sign on with, not your competence as an individual. Brokers, lawyers and accountants are just as replaceable as teachers, police officers and nurses.


    first part - totally agree
    second part - totally true (im living proof, the white collar world is such bullshit im embarrassed to be a part of it)

    So you are ranting against a system that you are a part of, that you benefit from, that makes your way of life possible? Alrighty then.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Question for anyone who wants to answer: In your opinion, were American slave owners members of this capitalist extremist cult?

    by "virtue" of having slaves?
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    JimmyV wrote:
    JC29856 wrote:
    I will never understand the US's obsession with it's quasi-capitalism. Inevitably, in a market driven society like the US, private and public enterprises become so intertwined that it's virtually impossible to differentiate between them. I've heard a number of individuals on this forum profess to hate big government while giving big business a free pass, yet in the US I get the distinct impression that there is very little separating public office and private business from each other. If markets were free of undue influence I could understand why some people would show strong devotion to capitalist ideals, but as it now stands it appears that your markets are constantly manipulated by politicians and the private entrepreneurs with the means to do so.

    As for many of the so-called white collared professions; they are vastly overrated and quite attainable if you travel in the right circles. Stock brokers, lawyers and accountants are a dime-a-dozen. If you have the right connections these careers are readily available and the education needed to enter any of these professions isn't particularly challenging. Moreover, your success upon graduation depends largely on the firm that you sign on with, not your competence as an individual. Brokers, lawyers and accountants are just as replaceable as teachers, police officers and nurses.


    first part - totally agree
    second part - totally true (im living proof, the white collar world is such bullshit im embarrassed to be a part of it)

    So you are ranting against a system that you are a part of, that you benefit from, that makes your way of life possible? Alrighty then.


    ranting? maybe... a part of?...sadly yes, i blame my father thou
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    JC29856 wrote:
    Question for anyone who wants to answer: In your opinion, were American slave owners members of this capitalist extremist cult?

    by "virtue" of having slaves?

    However you see it. Would being a slave owner be considered part of a capitalistic system to you?
  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,183
    JC29856 wrote:
    sadly yes, i blame my father thou

    OK, that cracked me up. I'll give you that. :D
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    brianlux wrote:

    Edson, I know for a fact just about anyone can be a teacher. I used to be a teacher and it never ceased to amaze me that we have some very unqualified teachers out there. But what I get from what riotgrl is saying is that a good teacher contributes more to society that a good stock broker. First of all, without an education, a person cannot become a stock broker. Secondly, a good teacher does more than impart information or prepare people for careers. A good teacher helps students learn to think critically, to think for themselves and be true to themselves.

    I read somewhere that in Japan, teachers are paid and respected the same as high ranking professionals-- doctors, lawyers and such. Here in the US we pay and acknowledge teachers as though they are baby sitters and so that's often what we get. This leaves the good teachers-- and I have no doubt riotgrl fits this description-- underpaid and under-appreciated. In my opinion, that's just wrong.


    We don't know if that is a true statement though. While we like to believe it, a stock broker is what makes it possible for a lot of people to make a living, makes it possible for people to retire, makes it possible for people to go to college to become teachers...I know they are evil capitalist pigs, but they do their part. I don't want to go into a whole who does more discussion, but everyone plays their part.

    undervalue / overvalue is something that drives me crazy to discuss. Your services, no matter what they are, are worth what someone is willing to pay you for them money wise. To say teachers are undervalued perpetuates the philosophy our worth comes from monetary reimbursement for our services.

    I am certainly worth more than my salary, but I choose to do my work because I believe in it. Does that mean I am undervalued? no, it means that my money situation isn't where I would like it to be, but in terms of value, my co-workers value me highly, so does my family, friends, and industry really, I am very valued...As far as teachers go, i don't see too many news stories about the stock broker of the year, I don't see too many news stories about the factory worker of the year...

    Extremist cult of capitalism? nope.

    What it boils down to is that people will never be happy, every system has faults, there is no utopia...if you aren't happy with your station in life, work to change it, but something that is easier is to quit subscribing to the idea that we aren't valued highly enough.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
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