A true Pacifist

PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
edited November 2012 in A Moving Train
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvbni4_daughter-of-mossad-chief-i-refuse-to-enlist-in-the-israeli-military_news

11175230.jpg

Omer Goldman Granot, from the Tel-Aviv suburb of Ramat HaSharon, is a member of the Shministim, a young Israeli conscientious objector who became famous for being the daughter of Naftali Granot, former deputy to Mossad’s chief Meir Dagan.

She was sentenced to 21 days in military prison for refusing to serve the Israel Defense Forces on 22 September 2008, along with Tamar Katz and Mia Tamarin. She is one of about 40 high school students who signed the 2008 high-school seniors’ ("Shministim") protest letter. In order to prepare herself for her incarceration in a military prison, Goldman went to a psychologist every week. She has spent a second term in prison for refusing to serve again.

She claims that the crucial moment of her metamorphosis occurred when she went to the Palestinian village Shufa where the IDF had set up a roadblock. Someone she had considered her enemy stood beside her and someone who was supposed to be defending her opened fire at her.

These following words have inspired many people: "I believe in service to the society I am part of, and that is precisely why I refuse to take part in the war crimes committed by my country. Violence will not bring any kind of solution, and I shall not commit violence, come what may".


That a girl! :) Kudos to her! :clap:
Ooh, yeah! All right!
Were [Pearl] jammin
I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Bravery and courage are descriptive words that come to me.

    People know what is right... but often fail to do what is right given what they are directed to do or how they should act. People are manipulated and controlled too easily.

    I read a book, Ordinary Men, that spoke of a German reserve police battalion and their role in the Holocaust. Not inherently evil, most of the 'ordinary' men succumbed to the distasteful orders delivered to them given the context of war and the chain of command. Most were repulsed with what was required of them and felt much anguish and shame for their part- even as they begrudgingly carried out their orders.

    Lending support for what the writer (Browning) was suggesting... he also referred to events such as the Milgram experiment where 'normal' people were asked to give increasingly higher electrical shocks to a subject every time they got a question wrong. Most test subjects- visibly uncomfortable with what they were doing- were capable of administering lethal level shocks despite the cries of pain from the 'actors' behind the curtain. The clinical setting and the professional appearance of the administrators left these people in a state where they felt they could not object to authority.

    In the case of the German reserves... I was inspired by the bravery of one man who, upon hearing the task that awaited his battalion, bravely stood down instead of falling in line.

    It's easy to say what you think you might do in any given situation... but I think it might be much different once faced with it.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,294
    This is an excellent and inspiring story. We can all learn something about standing firm from this.

    And Thirty Bill, you words are a good reminder of how easy it is to be led not only astray, but down an evil path. Keeping this in mind might help us from making poor choices in extreme situations like the one you describe. And the sad thing is, we do make these poor choices everyday when we support companies that exploit others. Even something as seemingly harmless as the purchase of a plastic toy is a Milgram shock to a child slave in some third world country. How do we stop this?
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • brianlux wrote:
    This is an excellent and inspiring story. We can all learn something about standing firm from this.

    And Thirty Bill, you words are a good reminder of how easy it is to be led not only astray, but down an evil path. Keeping this in mind might help us from making poor choices in extreme situations like the one you describe. And the sad thing is, we do make these poor choices everyday when we support companies that exploit others. Even something as seemingly harmless as the purchase of a plastic toy is a Milgram shock to a child slave in some third world country. How do we stop this?

    One of the only ways to ensure people begin making the right choices and develop appropriate attitudes is for mainstream society to adopt values that promote them. This is brought about through awareness. We might be getting there- I'm not sure. These things happen slowly... but trying to illustrate what I mean: I can tell you that only through global awareness... my family recycles like mad and makes efforts to curb consumption patterns that have harmful effects on the environment (such as, but not limited to, buying local produce and meats). Without ever initially being inundated with information that established the need for more environmentally conscious choices... we'd still be tossing out plastic bottles and paper products.

    Various other organizations are trying to generate awareness for the advancement of their cause. As one example of what I mean here... look at whale conservation groups and the work they do publicizing brutal whaling practices, while at the same time highlighting the majestic beauty of the mammals they seek to protect.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,899
    Omer Goldman Granot, Tamar Katz and Mia Tamarin and the other students. :thumbup:
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,294
    Omer Goldman Granot, Tamar Katz and Mia Tamarin and the other students. :thumbup:

    Found lots of info on Granot but little on Katz or Tamarin related to pacifism. Can you post a few links? Thanks.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,899
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,294

    Thank you, Catefrances! Brave, peace loving souls, these. Letter signed, good thoughts sent.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    It's easy to say what you think you might do in any given situation... but I think it might be much different once faced with it.

    That is so true.
    brianlux wrote:
    How do we stop this?

    redrock posted the following at the Universal Children's Day thread that I started on November 20th. I hope that helps somehow. Those that are exploited for our vanity - those with tiny fingers stitching beads and beads on the top you will be wearing at your next party, ruining their eyes and their health. Or those in sweat shops making the clothes you want to buy cheaply. Those in the factories making the fabric for these clothes, the shoe industry, carpet industry, etc. They breathe in noxious fumes, dusts, are prone to accidents, do not get an education.

    We are enabling this. We can help 'correct' this too. Source your goods ethically. OK.. so it means a bit of research and a bit of your time but is a child's life not worth your few minutes of 'hassle'? Support one/several of the many organisations that work towards child welfare and that do make a difference.


    Various other organizations are trying to generate awareness for the advancement of their cause. As one example of what I mean here... look at whale conservation groups and the work they do publicizing brutal whaling practices, while at the same time highlighting the majestic beauty of the mammals they seek to protect.

    While we're at it, please let me add another example. I'm proud to be part of this organization. http://www.mom.gr/homepage.asp?ITMID=101&LANG=EN
    brianlux wrote:
    Can you post a few links? Thanks.

    tamar-katz.jpg
    “I oppose the anti-Palestinian policy of attrition and the oppression, not because I prefer the Palestinian society to the Israeli one, but out of an understanding that this policy has led us down a dead-end road politically and to immorality, forced especially on soldiers stationed in the Occupied Territories. I am not willing to become on of those holding the gun pointed indiscriminately at Palestinian civilians, and I do not believe that such actions could bring any change except ever more antagonism and violence in our region.”
    http://december18th.org/2008/12/01/tamar-katz/

    mia-tamarin.jpg
    “I have no doubt that I should be serving my country, I have been doing so in many ways from a very young age, and intend of course to continue doing so, not out of compulsion but fully and truly of my own will. I cannot become part of an organization the purpose of which is to fend off violence by violence, because it stands unequivocally contrary to everything I believe in and to my whole life. There always is another, non-violent option, and it is this option that I choose.”
    http://december18th.org/2008/11/23/mia-tamarin/

    11175230.jpg
    “I refuse to enlist in the Israeli military. I shall not be part of an army that needlessly implements a violent policy and violates the most basic human rights on a daily basis. Like most of my peers, I too have not dared to question the ethics of the Israeli military. But when I visited the Occupied Territories I realized I see a completely different reality, a violent, oppressive, extreme reality that must be ended. I believe in service to the society I am part of, and that is precisely why I refuse to take part in the war crimes committed by my country. Violence will not bring any kind of solution, and I shall not commit violence, come what may. “
    http://december18th.org/2008/11/24/omer-goldman/
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    Pap wrote:
    It's easy to say what you think you might do in any given situation... but I think it might be much different once faced with it.

    That is so true.
    brianlux wrote:
    How do we stop this?

    redrock posted the following at the Universal Children's Day thread that I started on November 20th. I hope that helps somehow. Those that are exploited for our vanity - those with tiny fingers stitching beads and beads on the top you will be wearing at your next party, ruining their eyes and their health. Or those in sweat shops making the clothes you want to buy cheaply. Those in the factories making the fabric for these clothes, the shoe industry, carpet industry, etc. They breathe in noxious fumes, dusts, are prone to accidents, do not get an education.

    We are enabling this. We can help 'correct' this too. Source your goods ethically. OK.. so it means a bit of research and a bit of your time but is a child's life not worth your few minutes of 'hassle'? Support one/several of the many organisations that work towards child welfare and that do make a difference.


    Various other organizations are trying to generate awareness for the advancement of their cause. As one example of what I mean here... look at whale conservation groups and the work they do publicizing brutal whaling practices, while at the same time highlighting the majestic beauty of the mammals they seek to protect.

    While we're at it, please let me add another example. I'm proud to be part of this organization. http://www.mom.gr/homepage.asp?ITMID=101&LANG=EN
    brianlux wrote:
    Can you post a few links? Thanks.

    tamar-katz.jpg
    “I oppose the anti-Palestinian policy of attrition and the oppression, not because I prefer the Palestinian society to the Israeli one, but out of an understanding that this policy has led us down a dead-end road politically and to immorality, forced especially on soldiers stationed in the Occupied Territories. I am not willing to become on of those holding the gun pointed indiscriminately at Palestinian civilians, and I do not believe that such actions could bring any change except ever more antagonism and violence in our region.”
    http://december18th.org/2008/12/01/tamar-katz/

    mia-tamarin.jpg
    “I have no doubt that I should be serving my country, I have been doing so in many ways from a very young age, and intend of course to continue doing so, not out of compulsion but fully and truly of my own will. I cannot become part of an organization the purpose of which is to fend off violence by violence, because it stands unequivocally contrary to everything I believe in and to my whole life. There always is another, non-violent option, and it is this option that I choose.”
    http://december18th.org/2008/11/23/mia-tamarin/

    11175230.jpg
    “I refuse to enlist in the Israeli military. I shall not be part of an army that needlessly implements a violent policy and violates the most basic human rights on a daily basis. Like most of my peers, I too have not dared to question the ethics of the Israeli military. But when I visited the Occupied Territories I realized I see a completely different reality, a violent, oppressive, extreme reality that must be ended. I believe in service to the society I am part of, and that is precisely why I refuse to take part in the war crimes committed by my country. Violence will not bring any kind of solution, and I shall not commit violence, come what may. “
    http://december18th.org/2008/11/24/omer-goldman/


    I respect these young women on taking a stand for what they believe in. Do these young women have a solution? Going to jail is not solving the problem. I bet they haven't even lived on there own yet. I would love to get there opinions in 10 to 20 years from now, if there lucky enough to still have that freedom. Do they want to open the boarders and invite Hamas in?
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,102
    aerial wrote:


    I respect these young women on taking a stand for what they believe in. Do these young women have a solution? Going to jail is not solving the problem. I bet they haven't even lived on there own yet. I would love to get there opinions in 10 to 20 years from now, if there lucky enough to still have that freedom. Do they want to open the boarders and invite Hamas in?

    If everyone refused to belong in a violent organization, then I think you might have a solution.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,294
    Go Beavers wrote:
    aerial wrote:


    I respect these young women on taking a stand for what they believe in. Do these young women have a solution? Going to jail is not solving the problem. I bet they haven't even lived on there own yet. I would love to get there opinions in 10 to 20 years from now, if there lucky enough to still have that freedom. Do they want to open the boarders and invite Hamas in?

    If everyone refused to belong in a violent organization, then I think you might have a solution.

    Quite right, Go Beavors! And I'll add to that- if everyone of us at least pledged support for these women (and men) and even more- stood by them we would be much closer to a solution.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    aerial wrote:
    I respect these young women on taking a stand for what they believe in. Do these young women have a solution? Going to jail is not solving the problem. I bet they haven't even lived on there own yet. I would love to get there opinions in 10 to 20 years from now, if there lucky enough to still have that freedom. Do they want to open the boarders and invite Hamas in?

    First of all, please do not believe in whatever the mass media have to say. These girls experience the horror of war every single day. So, they have to say something more relevant than a guided journalist in a remote country. People don't usually change their beliefs according to their age. But even if this does happen, that's exactly what they're trying to achieve. They're "fighting" for freedom of speech for everyone in their country.
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 3,623
    Awesome. We always celebrate people joining the military which I find crazy

    I wish this would be celebrated more.

    instead they get thrown in jail
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Bravery and courage are descriptive words that come to me.

    People know what is right... but often fail to do what is right given what they are directed to do or how they should act. People are manipulated and controlled too easily.

    I read a book, Ordinary Men, that spoke of a German reserve police battalion and their role in the Holocaust. Not inherently evil, most of the 'ordinary' men succumbed to the distasteful orders delivered to them given the context of war and the chain of command. Most were repulsed with what was required of them and felt much anguish and shame for their part- even as they begrudgingly carried out their orders.

    Lending support for what the writer (Browning) was suggesting... he also referred to events such as the Milgram experiment where 'normal' people were asked to give increasingly higher electrical shocks to a subject every time they got a question wrong. Most test subjects- visibly uncomfortable with what they were doing- were capable of administering lethal level shocks despite the cries of pain from the 'actors' behind the curtain. The clinical setting and the professional appearance of the administrators left these people in a state where they felt they could not object to authority.

    In the case of the German reserves... I was inspired by the bravery of one man who, upon hearing the task that awaited his battalion, bravely stood down instead of falling in line.

    It's easy to say what you think you might do in any given situation... but I think it might be much different once faced with it.

    Good post.
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Pap wrote:
    "“I refuse to enlist in the Israeli military. I shall not be part of an army that needlessly implements a violent policy and violates the most basic human rights on a daily basis. Like most of my peers, I too have not dared to question the ethics of the Israeli military. But when I visited the Occupied Territories I realized I see a completely different reality, a violent, oppressive, extreme reality that must be ended. I believe in service to the society I am part of, and that is precisely why I refuse to take part in the war crimes committed by my country. Violence will not bring any kind of solution, and I shall not commit violence, come what may".

    :clap:
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited November 2012
    aerial wrote:
    Do these young women have a solution?...Do they want to open the boarders and invite Hamas in?

    Calling for an end to the illegal Israeli occupation is one solution. Refusing to support the illegal occupation by not serving in a military that deliberately, and indiscriminately targets civilians is another solution.

    As for Hamas, what do they have to do with it? Are you suggesting that Hamas are responsible for Israel stealing Palestinian land for the past 60 years and ethnically cleansing the region? If so, then how do you explain Israel stealing Palestinian land prior to the formation of Hamas?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
    "It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential." - Bruce Lee

    "Don't ride on me man, ride with me" - Byrnzie on LSD

    "Ed Vedder? He sounds like the song of the North West sung by Chief Broom in the body of R.P McMurphy." - Byrnzie
  • To put your life at risk to save another - daily especially - for your establishment, is courageous and brave. To speak out against what goes against your moral fiber - especially establishment preached but then contorted - is courageous and brave. 3 courageous & brave warriors.

    Wanting to serve your establishment in ways that adhere to your moral fiber. Why not provide a few options; military, hospice care, civic service?
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Calling for an end to the illegal Israeli occupation is one solution. Refusing to support the illegal occupation by serving in a military that deliberately, and indiscriminately targets civilians is another solution.

    As for Hamas, what do they have to do with it? Are you suggesting that Hamas are responsible for Israel stealing Palestinian land for the past 60 years and ethnically cleansing the region? If so, then how do you explain Israel stealing Palestinian land prior to the formation of Hamas?


    :clap:
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 28,899
    aerial wrote:

    I respect these young women on taking a stand for what they believe in. Do these young women have a solution? Going to jail is not solving the problem. I bet they haven't even lived on there own yet. I would love to get there opinions in 10 to 20 years from now, if there lucky enough to still have that freedom. Do they want to open the boarders and invite Hamas in?


    you speak of respecting these womens decision and then you belittle them with snide questions. you ask if they would open the borders and invite hamas in yet you dont not ask why the palestinians have the need for hamas. you seem to put the onus on the oppressed when it should be on the oppressor. the bottom line is hamas is already in. if the jews wanted to establish a jewish state and not just a state where jews could be safe then they should have looked for somewhere terra nullius, not a land that was already inhabited. if someone came to your land with total disregard and started to push you and yours out cause would you not push back? i certainly would.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    edited September 2018

    Post edited by Pap on
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777

    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,294
    Pap said:

    Both inspiring and sad, Pap.  Thanks for posting it.

    (Back to the lounge I go)
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PapPap Serres, GreecePosts: 20,777
    brianlux said: Both inspiring and sad, Pap.  Thanks for posting it.
    That was in honour of International Day of Peace (21/09).
    Ooh, yeah! All right!
    Were [Pearl] jammin
    I wanna [Pearl] jam it wid you.
    Were [Pearl] jammin, [Pearl] jammin
    And I hope you like [Pearl] jammin too.


    Sep 30, 2006 - OAKA Sports Hall - Athens, Greece
    Jul 11, 2014 - Milton Keynes Bowl - Milton Keynes, UK
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,294
    Pap said:
    brianlux said: Both inspiring and sad, Pap.  Thanks for posting it.
    That was in honour of International Day of Peace (21/09).
    I honestly have to say, I didn't know.  And how sad that is, especially when so much nonsense dominates the air waves.

    If it's true what they say about focusing on the positive, visualizing good things, etc., our collective species is going about it all wrong (and I fond it difficult to accept that we, as a species, are somehow attempting  to manifest ours and much of the world's destruction.  We need widespread rethinking.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • Jason PJason P Posts: 17,429
    Smokey was a conscientious objector
Sign In or Register to comment.