bone marrow

mikepegg44

http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2 ... lives?lite

didn't see this posted.

Thoughts?

pjhawks

very interesting. surprised that people would be matches and elect not to donate. i guess when faced with it the going through with it is more scary than original thought. i can see the case both for and against. if you allow payments does it mean only the rich would be able to afford bone marrow transplants in the future though?

hedonist

Interesting indeed...

I can imagine the mother's desperation and frustration, but as was mentioned, this will un-level the playing field, so to speak.

Then again, and perhaps not the best comparison, but people DO get paid to donate blood, plasma, sperm - all fairly-quickly regenerating.

I've heard the procedure can be very painful, so I can understand some changing their minds at the last minute. Their perogative of course, but man, that's gotta be so frightening for those waiting.

Curious to hear others' takes on this.

Cosmo

Question: What if the donor match is a minor aged child? Can the parents sell the marrow? Does the kid get to enter a legal contract to sell his/her marrow?
...
Question: Would you sell your kidney to a stranger? If not... what is your price? (because everyone has a price). Money is great motivator.
...
Also... doesn't bone marrow require a spinal tap?

Lizard

I thought it was taken from the hip area.

I was a close match once. I was contacted that I was good match so they took about 8-10 more vials but then I never heard anything so I did not have to make a decision...I would HOPE I would have gone through with it. It is kind of a promise once you donate to match, no?

gimmesometruth27

this is an interesting case. if i was a match i would donate. altruistically.

i had a friend one time who had had a bone marrow transplant as a child and it saved her life.

part of me wants to say that it should be legal to pay a marrow donor, because people in desperate circumstances and situations should be able to purchase the things they need, like bone marrow, and a donor in financial straits should be able to profit from their "contributing" to the healing of another person. but like the article says, donating for potentially large profit might cause donors to not disclose any medical conditions that they have, which could harm the recipient. i think that it may open up pandora's box of selling things like blood instead of donating it altrusitically. the other part of me believes that the donation is a gift to the recipient and as such it is done with altruistic motivations.

i am torn here. i am glad i will not be sitting on a jury in this case.

that said, i have donated pints of blood on numerous occasions and i never thought about this until now, but i wonder if someone out there is walking around with 3 pints of gimme in them?? :think: :think:

hedonist

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

that said, i have donated pints of blood on numerous occasions and i never thought about this until now, but i wonder if someone out there is walking around with 3 pints of gimme in them?? :think: :think:

*refraining from making joke about a republican donee having done a political 180*

...kidding!

gimmesometruth27

hedonist wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

that said, i have donated pints of blood on numerous occasions and i never thought about this until now, but i wonder if someone out there is walking around with 3 pints of gimme in them?? :think: :think:

*refraining from making joke about a republican donee having done a political 180*

...kidding!

that would be classic....

*searches for john boehner and eric cantor and jon kyl and mitch mcconnell with 4 pints of gimme's blood and transfusion machine...*

redrock

I may be wrong but as far as I understand it, the best way to harvest bone marrow is still a surgical procedure which requires general anaesthesia and recovery period. There are other ways via the blood but it's less effective? So a bit more than just giving blood or sperm and more akin to organ donation for which, personally, I think it is wrong to pay the donor. Look what happens in India or other poor countries. They sell their organs to 'rich' people in order to be able to feed their families. There are villages in India where not one adult bears the scars of surgery to harvest a kidney.

So many ethical dilemmas with this exchange of money. But I guess with the way a lot of people think, anything is a commodity. You have money, you get what you need. You don't have money, you don't - or you can sell an organ.... As medicine makes more and more advances, do we have a right to 'demand' that others 'save' us? When we are looking at being donor 'by default' (ie unless you explicitly say you will not donate organs, you are deemed a donor - instead of current situation where you have to explicitly say you will donate), is this right? I understand the despair of those wishing for a transplant in order to allow them to live but is the medical profession now taking it too far?

mikepegg44

redrock wrote:

I may be wrong but as far as I understand it, the best way to harvest bone marrow is still a surgical procedure which requires general anaesthesia and recovery period. There are other ways via the blood but it's less effective? So a bit more than just giving blood or sperm and more akin to organ donation for which, personally, I think it is wrong to pay the donor. Look what happens in India or other poor countries. They sell their organs to 'rich' people in order to be able to feed their families. There are villages in India where not one adult bears the scars of surgery to harvest a kidney.

So many ethical dilemmas with this exchange of money. But I guess with the way a lot of people think, anything is a commodity. You have money, you get what you need. You don't have money, you don't - or you can sell an organ.... As medicine makes more and more advances, do we have a right to 'demand' that others 'save' us? When we are looking at being donor 'by default' (ie unless you explicitly say you will not donate organs, you are deemed a donor - instead of current situation where you have to explicitly say you will donate), is this right? I understand the despair of those wishing for a transplant in order to allow them to live but is the medical profession now taking it too far?

maybe I misunderstood, but I think this would be akin to plasma centers. they would pay people to donate and then use the marrow as a product and get it to the people who need it...might be even easier to find a match that way. I think it is a good idea. If a private company wants to take on the expense of extracting the marrow to sell it back to the hospitals, it becomes like blood. People who are matches could always simply donate for free, but this would open up the available donor list I think. I wouldn't want to be the owner of the first company to do it, but I don't see a problem with it. But I don't think they are talking about paying a doctor, or paying a person directly for their marrow...and even if they are...as long as it is an agreement between two consenting adults what is the problem?

The only negative I might see is that the insurance companies would scoff at paying the fees on the marrow that comes from a private for profit company. Kind of reminds me of that movie repo men with Jude law...what are they going to do when you can't pay your bill...take it back?

polaris_x

i've signed up for this ... http://onematch.com/

basically, if i get the call - i will donate ...

as for this lawsuit ... from skimming the article ... it seems she wants to challenge the law that makes the sale of organs illegal to not include bone marrow ... which seems like a good challenge to me ...

redrock

mikepegg44 wrote:

maybe I misunderstood, but I think this would be akin to plasma centers. they would pay people to donate and then use the marrow as a product and get it to the people who need it.

My mistake. I was at work and must have read too quickly. Having re-read the article, it does seem that it would be a 'company' paying a donor. Still a lot of questions (one of which was raised in the article about full disclosure), also who regulates/monitors? Do ALL have access to 'paid' donations (if that's how one would call it) for free or will these be at a premium cost to the one needing it?

mikepegg44 wrote:

...or paying a person directly for their marrow...and even if they are...as long as it is an agreement between two consenting adults what is the problem?

Well.. the problem is that they may be 'consenting' but one party may not have a real choice seeing an opportunity to be able to feed their family etc. The poor/vulnerable will be exploited by those who can pay. See what is happening in India (even if paying for organs is illegal). These organs are not just for the indian market for all the wealthy who can afford it. I'm not saying this is always the case. And I know that marrow is not the same thing as a kidney but it could be exploited as well. It's the whole ethics of this that needs to be looked at.

Is this the kind of thing we want to see? http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/health ... -36703.htm

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/health/default.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... ns/254570/

mikepegg44

redrock wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

maybe I misunderstood, but I think this would be akin to plasma centers. they would pay people to donate and then use the marrow as a product and get it to the people who need it.

My mistake. I was at work and must have read too quickly. Having re-read the article, it does seem that it would be a 'company' paying a donor. Still a lot of questions (one of which was raised in the article about full disclosure), also who regulates/monitors? Do ALL have access to 'paid' donations (if that's how one would call it) for free or will these be at a premium cost to the one needing it?

mikepegg44 wrote:

...or paying a person directly for their marrow...and even if they are...as long as it is an agreement between two consenting adults what is the problem?

Well.. the problem is that they may be 'consenting' but one party may not have a real choice seeing an opportunity to be able to feed their family etc. The poor/vulnerable will be exploited by those who can pay. See what is happening in India (even if paying for organs is illegal). These organs are not just for the indian market for all the wealthy who can afford it. I'm not saying this is always the case. And I know that marrow is not the same thing as a kidney but it could be exploited as well. It's the whole ethics of this that needs to be looked at.

Is this the kind of thing we want to see? http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/health ... -36703.htm

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/health/default.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... ns/254570/

to me you aren't selling an organ, you are selling something like plasma to a center...don't think there are too many people from wealth in those places.

redrock

I don't know Mike - donating bone marrow is not the same as giving a bit of blood or having a little 'me time' and donating sperm. It's a lot more complex than just walking in a centre and walking out 10 minutes later.

For me, donating should be just that - donating. Blood, sperm, ovum, whatever. Once one starts paying for the privilege of using someone else's body bits and pieces as commodity and money is exchanged it can lead to all kinds of corruption, exploitation, dependance etc. Naturally, there is the flip side of this that money is the basis for action from some people and, without compensation, they will not do anything. So, paying will up the rate of donating, I suppose.

mikepegg44

redrock wrote:

I don't know Mike - donating bone marrow is not the same as giving a bit of blood or having a little 'me time' and donating sperm. It's a lot more complex than just walking in a centre and walking out 10 minutes later.

For me, donating should be just that - donating. Blood, sperm, ovum, whatever. Once one starts paying for the privilege of using someone else's body bits and pieces as commodity and money is exchanged it can lead to all kinds of corruption, exploitation, dependance etc. Naturally, there is the flip side of this that money is the basis for action from some people and, without compensation, they will not do anything. So, paying will up the rate of donating, I suppose.

it is definitely not the process donating a pint of blood or plasma...I wasn't necessarily saying the process would be the same. But if it is possible for a third party to act as a facilitator between donaters and donatees I think it would be more beneficial to those who need it rather than the drawbacks of making it legal. I guess it is all how you look at it. I am sure extraction will continue to be steamlined and improved, and I think a third party taking great monetary interest in that process could probably help in that process

redrock

mikepegg44 wrote:

I am sure extraction will continue to be steamlined and improved, and I think a third party taking great monetary interest in that process could probably help in that process

I'm sure it will. And I'm sure there will not be a shortage of 'third parties' that would be interested in being facilitators. My question though - will there then be a two-tier donor system - those that can pay for a service could be 'fast tracked' (as one can be for organ donation already)? After all, if a 'middle-man' has to pay for goods (whoever this middle-man/organisation may be), he needs to make a profit and therefore will sell those goods on at a good price. Then again, guess it's like that in the medical world anyway - you have money, you get the quality treatments you need when you need them; you don't have money, you're after all those that do - maybe even not getting treatment if it's not 'essential' or dying waiting.

Sorry to sound so cynical about this. Organ/blood donation is a wonderful thing and saves lives. Should stay altruistic.

vduboise

I got called a couple months ago to be a donor. It was interesting how they found me- I donated 12 years ago- and they had my old number (2 or 3 numbers ago), my old address, and my old name. But they have this program that the govt gave them to help find people. A bit scary how people can track you down.

I decided to be a donor- if I'm a good match. I've already gone and gave more blood for testing- so I should hear something in a couple more weeks. Because of the age of the person, I'm more likely to have them collect through the hip.

I'm surprised that people don't follow through. It can be a bit painful- but at the same time, rewarding, that you have the possibility to save someone's life.

I totally understand the idea of wanting to pay marrow donors- but I feel that its your choice to donate or not- and when money becomes involved- wonky things happen.

Cosmo

vduboise wrote:

I totally understand the idea of wanting to pay marrow donors- but I feel that its your choice to donate or not- and when money becomes involved- wonky things happen.

...
Like, people selling their marrow (or other organs) to the highest bidder, thus leaving poor people out of the equation.

mikepegg44

interesting development in the process by which they may entice bone marrow donations...anyone who wasn't comfortable with cash more comfortable with incentives?

http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... tands?lite

MotoDC

redrock wrote:

I don't know Mike - donating bone marrow is not the same as giving a bit of blood or having a little 'me time' and donating sperm. It's a lot more complex than just walking in a centre and walking out 10 minutes later.

For me, donating should be just that - donating. Blood, sperm, ovum, whatever. Once one starts paying for the privilege of using someone else's body bits and pieces as commodity and money is exchanged it can lead to all kinds of corruption, exploitation, dependance etc. Naturally, there is the flip side of this that money is the basis for action from some people and, without compensation, they will not do anything. So, paying will up the rate of donating, I suppose.

"me time". Nice.

Donating marrow is definitely more invasive than donating blood, but the key difference to me between marrow and organ donation is that marrow grows back. I'm not permanently injuring myself by donating marrow unless something goes horribly wrong.

Also, it's only exploiting the poor if they are actively being kept poor by the powers that be so that the poor NEED to sell the organs to survive. Simply providing them with another legal option to feed their families is not in and of itself exploitation.

Certainly, making it legal benefits the rich more than the poor, I won't argue that, but think of a poor family whose child needs a kidney. They cannot afford it in a "normal" fashion, but if the law were to change, perhaps they could sell their marrow to finance the kidney. Quid pro quo with money as the arbiter. So there at least is one example of how the poor and not just the rich would benefit from the buy side of a market for organs.

PJ_Soul

That's fucked up. I can't believe that half of the people would back out when they KNOW there is someone dying because of that decision. What is wrong with people??? ... I shouldn't be surprised though. I was on the train last year, and this woman started choking to death. One guy thankfully started giving her the Heimlich, and I jumped up and went to push the emergency strip so that staff would be at the next station to help, and someone actually yelled out, "No!! Don't push that! It might delay the train at the next stop!" :x :x :x Literally everyone else on the train sat there like cows chewing cud, trying to pretend nothing was happening. It seemed that they were all embarrassed by what the woman was going through rather than concerned. So yeah, I should not be so surprised that 50% of even initially well-meaning people decline being a marrow donor even though it means someone will die. Wtf is this world coming to?

catefrances

Cosmo wrote:

Question: Would you sell your kidney to a stranger? If not... what is your price? (because everyone has a price). Money is great motivator.
...

not everyone has a price. how gauche is yeah you can have my kidney but itll cost you youre putting a price on peoples lives. ugh.

having said that how would i feel if id donated a kidney to a stranger and then one of my children needs it and i turn out to be a perfect match? in all honesty id feel pretty fucking shitty. however when im dead please feel free tot ake what is needed.

PJ_Soul

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Question: Would you sell your kidney to a stranger? If not... what is your price? (because everyone has a price). Money is great motivator.
...

not everyone has a price. how gauche is yeah you can have my kidney but itll cost you youre putting a price on peoples lives. ugh.

having said that how would i feel if id donated a kidney to a stranger and then one of my children needs it and i turn out to be a perfect match? in all honesty id feel pretty fucking shitty. however when im dead please feel free tot ake what is needed.

I knew someone who gave her kidney to some person she knew from work. And that's nice and all but yeah, my first thought was :fp: She'd just had a baby. What if her kid needed it? What about her husband? Sister? What if she got sick and her last kidney failed? I thought it was irresponsible more than anything.

Bone marrow though... totally other story.

hedonist

PJ_Soul wrote:

I knew someone who gave her kidney to some person she knew from work. And that's nice and all but yeah, my first thought was :fp: She'd just had a baby. What if her kid needed it? What about her husband? Sister? What if she got sick and her last kidney failed? I thought it was irresponsible more than anything.

Bone marrow though... totally other story.

My brother-in-law's coworker donated a kidney to him...don't know the donor's situation, but I'd assume he took into account all of the what-ifs.

Not irresponsible, but incredibly giving - from this (perhaps selfish) perspective.

PJ_Soul

hedonist wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I knew someone who gave her kidney to some person she knew from work. And that's nice and all but yeah, my first thought was :fp: She'd just had a baby. What if her kid needed it? What about her husband? Sister? What if she got sick and her last kidney failed? I thought it was irresponsible more than anything.

Bone marrow though... totally other story.

My brother-in-law's coworker donated a kidney to him...don't know the donor's situation, but I'd assume he took into account all of the what-ifs.

Not irresponsible, but incredibly giving - from this (perhaps selfish) perspective.

It IS incredibly giving. No doubt about that. But it doesn't seem like a good option for a parent, that's all.

catefrances

hedonist wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I knew someone who gave her kidney to some person she knew from work. And that's nice and all but yeah, my first thought was :fp: She'd just had a baby. What if her kid needed it? What about her husband? Sister? What if she got sick and her last kidney failed? I thought it was irresponsible more than anything.

Bone marrow though... totally other story.

My brother-in-law's coworker donated a kidney to him...don't know the donor's situation, but I'd assume he took into account all of the what-ifs.

Not irresponsible, but incredibly giving - from this (perhaps selfish) perspective.

yeah not sure if its irresponsible to donate an organ to a stranger. as you said hedonist, its incredibly giving, i just dont think with 2 of my children so young i could be so magnanimous. but give me time and who knows what im likely to do.

hedonist

I understand and respect the other side of it too...both of yours - one as a parent, and one who plans to be a parent.

I get it, with no judgment here at all. It's just been a recurring issue in my family and in that of my in-laws, the love of my life included. Kidney issues - donor issues - are close to the heart.

Would I do it? Honestly, not sure. But for him, if a match, absolutely

PJ_Soul

hedonist wrote:

I understand and respect the other side of it too...both of yours - one as a parent, and one who plans to be a parent.

I get it, with no judgment here at all. It's just been a recurring issue in my family and in that of my in-laws, the love of my life included. Kidney issues - donor issues - are close to the heart.

Would I do it? Honestly, not sure. But for him, if a match, absolutely

Well, I'd be a liver donor. But I feel like I need my spare kidney! ... not sure anyone would want a piece of my liver though. :?