Reality's a bitch. Huh? Welcome to the real world.
fair enough - if you are ok with taxpayers dollars used to fund wars for profiteering at the expense of innocent lives .. then ya - bush is your guy ..
Well - you're confusing 2 issues. Yes, there is profiteering. That's always going to happen. I wish it could be eliminated in all parts of the gov't. There's always a trade off, and we as a country need to correct that. But, if the objective was good (which, again, I can see debate on), then that's a trade off I'm willing to make at this point. But, I believe you think that's why Bush went in. And that is beyond silly. I believe he was aware of that by product and weighed it as part of the decision to go in. You think it was the decision. Well, if you (as in you personally, not the generic you that might allude to the President) set your agenda before you look at the facts, your conclusion will match your reality.
But, again - the innocent lives thing - how many innocents did Hussein and the Taliban destroy? How many more would they have? And at what cost to the overall instability of the region? All difficult assessments that are near impossible for you or me to fully make with the information we have.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Well - you're confusing 2 issues. Yes, there is profiteering. That's always going to happen. I wish it could be eliminated in all parts of the gov't. There's always a trade off, and we as a country need to correct that. But, if the objective was good (which, again, I can see debate on), then that's a trade off I'm willing to make at this point. But, I believe you think that's why Bush went in. And that is beyond silly. I believe he was aware of that by product and weighed it as part of the decision to go in. You think it was the decision. Well, if you (as in you personally, not the generic you that might allude to the President) set your agenda before you look at the facts, your conclusion will match your reality.
But, again - the innocent lives thing - how many innocents did Hussein and the Taliban destroy? How many more would they have? And at what cost to the overall instability of the region? All difficult assessments that are near impossible for you or me to fully make with the information we have.
dude ... the math isn't even close ... ask an innocent iraqi or afghanistani person and they are probably gonna tell you they preferred it the way it was ...
and you really need to look at the historical impacts of us foreign policy in that region ... to see that you guys not only fuck it up over there for those people - that many of the so called evil you are purging are people you guys put in place ...
Some nice retorts last night. I'll start and end with the easy ones -
Why?
why what...? if you're asking my why I think this is some funny shit, my answer is: I find if funny that you'd support a failed 2008 candidate who is not even in the running in 2012....Rudy was stupid to focus only on Florida is 2008...and if that's the kind of foresight he possessed, I think he'd make a terrible president for Amercia...
I agree he ran a poor campaign. But, that's the unfortunate reality of politics. At some point, the intelligent folks say - screw this. I don't need this. There are gov'ts abroad that will hire me without me having to deal with this stress/crap. So, we end up with the candidates we so richly deserve. One just hopes we get lucky every 40 years or so.....
He would have made a GREAT President. He successfully ran a LIBERAL based, most populated, complicated anything in the world extremely succesfully (and was so popular, led to a 16 year run of Republican leadership of said LIBERAL Bastion - not sure what the last few years have been, but the city is beginning to feel the Independence). He brought it from a literal shit hole back to its rightful place on top of the world. So, I don't think it's too much of a reach for him to take the country to similar heights. But, neither of our suppositions can be proven.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
anyhoo, I guess it could be argued that the actions taken by O-bama staved off a depression...
and you clearly don't have any information on the Osama raid....
I find these types of responses funny. It's usually the folks saying someone else is not open that are, in fact, not open. I took his opinion, and gave clear, concise reasons for my opinions.
The whole staved off - kind of funny - you are actually backing off the original statement. But, again. That's all speculation. It was a recession when he took over. Where it was going is pure speculation. Where it is 4 years later is not (see Dow, worst monthly drop in 2 years).
I have no idea what information you're alluding to, but all Obama basically did was approve the use of intelligence to kill Osama. Again, as I said - He gets credit. It was on his watch. My only point was, I don't think there's a Pres in history that doesn't make that decision. So, yes, he gets credit, but it's not like I'm voting the guy because he made what amounts to a no brainer decision that my 4 year old could have made.
So, I ask you - please respond to my original counter-points and let me know where I'm misguided. Thanks.
why bother...will it change anything...? again, you clearly have no clue about the OBL raid...none...and I'm not here to educate you...that's your job and you earned an F....
my statement was clear and simple...sure it can be seen as "speculation"...just as your statements can be seen as "speculation"...the fact is, no one can say anything to you that will change your mind...sadly you don't even know that...
why what...? if you're asking my why I think this is some funny shit, my answer is: I find if funny that you'd support a failed 2008 candidate who is not even in the running in 2012....Rudy was stupid to focus only on Florida is 2008...and if that's the kind of foresight he possessed, I think he'd make a terrible president for Amercia...
I agree he ran a poor campaign. But, that's the unfortunate reality of politics. At some point, the intelligent folks say - screw this. I don't need this. There are gov'ts abroad that will hire me without me having to deal with this stress/crap. So, we end up with the candidates we so richly deserve. One just hopes we get lucky every 40 years or so.....
He would have made a GREAT President. He successfully ran a LIBERAL based, most populated, complicated anything in the world extremely succesfully (and was so popular, led to a 16 year run of Republican leadership of said LIBERAL Bastion - not sure what the last few years have been, but the city is beginning to feel the Independence). He brought it from a literal shit hole back to its rightful place on top of the world. So, I don't think it's too much of a reach for him to take the country to similar heights. But, neither of our suppositions can be proven.
dude, if he can't run a National Campaign, he surely can't run the Amercia...
Well - you're confusing 2 issues. Yes, there is profiteering. That's always going to happen. I wish it could be eliminated in all parts of the gov't. There's always a trade off, and we as a country need to correct that. But, if the objective was good (which, again, I can see debate on), then that's a trade off I'm willing to make at this point. But, I believe you think that's why Bush went in. And that is beyond silly. I believe he was aware of that by product and weighed it as part of the decision to go in. You think it was the decision. Well, if you (as in you personally, not the generic you that might allude to the President) set your agenda before you look at the facts, your conclusion will match your reality.
But, again - the innocent lives thing - how many innocents did Hussein and the Taliban destroy? How many more would they have? And at what cost to the overall instability of the region? All difficult assessments that are near impossible for you or me to fully make with the information we have.
dude ... the math isn't even close ... ask an innocent iraqi or afghanistani person and they are probably gonna tell you they preferred it the way it was ...
and you really need to look at the historical impacts of us foreign policy in that region ... to see that you guys not only fuck it up over there for those people - that many of the so called evil you are purging are people you guys put in place ...
Ha, ha, ha. No need to check. I am well aware we often trade off the lesser of 2 evils, which later becomes the evil. Again, my response is - welcome to the real world. I also realize while we will leave it a better place, it won't be perfect by any stretch. The latter can only come when they strive to help themselves (which Bush was trying to do and partially succeeded with elections and such). Which goes to your former point. The fact that some/many don't know any better says all you need to know.
I always wonder why everyone wants to come here. We suck. Stay out!
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
Ha, ha, ha. No need to check. I am well aware we often trade off the lesser of 2 evils, which later becomes the evil. Again, my response is - welcome to the real world. I also realize while we will leave it a better place, it won't be perfect by any stretch. The latter can only come when they strive to help themselves (which Bush was trying to do and partially succeeded with elections and such). Which goes to your former point. The fact that some/many don't know any better says all you need to know.
I always wonder why everyone wants to come here. We suck. Stay out!
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
ahhhh ... sorry - i originally mistook you for understanding the real reasons why you guys go to war ... it appears you believe that america goes to war for altruistic reasons ... :? ...
that being the case - there's really not a discussion here as we are discussing from opposite ends of our own reality ... and i'm not really interested in getting into the whole war profiteering economic imperialism discussion again ...
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
South Korea is doing fairly well. Their socialist neighbors, not so much.
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
South Korea is doing fairly well. Their socialist neighbors, not so much.
dude, if he can't run a National Campaign, he surely can't run the Amercia...
You obviously have no clue about politics, and I would guess have no idea about upper management in any situation. The politics of getting there is completely different than competency. See America, Bank of. Or, MC, G.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
why bother...will it change anything...? again, you clearly have no clue about the OBL raid...none...and I'm not here to educate you...that's your job and you earned an F....
my statement was clear and simple...sure it can be seen as "speculation"...just as your statements can be seen as "speculation"...the fact is, no one can say anything to you that will change your mind...sadly you don't even know that...
you're welcome...
What a cop out answer. Yes, there was some super, top secret reason that only Obama had..... Thank Obama for Obama (see what I did there? ).
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
South Korea is doing fairly well. Their socialist neighbors, not so much.
So, in other words - people that want to help themselves are much more successful capitalizing (sorry, pun intended) on our help than those that don't? Hmmmm. Interesting.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
South Korea is doing fairly well. Their socialist neighbors, not so much.
Vietnam has made a good recovery after adopting free market reforms in 1986.
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
South Korea is doing fairly well. Their socialist neighbors, not so much.
Grenada is doing as well as you would expect for an isolated island economy run on tourism.
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
South Korea is doing fairly well. Their socialist neighbors, not so much.
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
South Korea is doing fairly well. Their socialist neighbors, not so much.
Kuwait is doing extremely well.
kuwait? ... not a single bit of that first gulf war was fought in kuwait ... kuwait is in the same place as it has been ... as for korea ... the country should never have been split up to begin with ...
grenada!?? ... the same war that was condemned around the world!? ... you're gonna point to that as a good deed by the US? ... and vietnam!????????? ... :fp:
dude, if he can't run a National Campaign, he surely can't run the Amercia...
You obviously have no clue about politics, and I would guess have no idea about upper management in any situation. The politics of getting there is completely different than competency. See America, Bank of. Or, MC, G.
and you have a clue...?!?! now that's some more funny shit...
Rudy didn't win, didn't even come close...now he's not even running...and you still think he's the man for the job...yeah, you have lots of clues...
why bother...will it change anything...? again, you clearly have no clue about the OBL raid...none...and I'm not here to educate you...that's your job and you earned an F....
my statement was clear and simple...sure it can be seen as "speculation"...just as your statements can be seen as "speculation"...the fact is, no one can say anything to you that will change your mind...sadly you don't even know that...
you're welcome...
What a cop out answer. Yes, there was some super, top secret reason that only Obama had..... Thank Obama for Obama (see what I did there? ).
kuwait? ... not a single bit of that first gulf war was fought in kuwait ... kuwait is in the same place as it has been ... as for korea ... the country should never have been split up to begin with ...
You tend to have a half-empty perspective on anything related to the U.S. :fp:
You tend to have a half-empty perspective on anything related to the U.S. :fp:
we are talking about tyrannical regimes that the US has gone in and deposed and then left a functioning democracy ... you gave me kuwait as an example ... how does that work?
kuwait? ... not a single bit of that first gulf war was fought in kuwait ... kuwait is in the same place as it has been ... as for korea ... the country should never have been split up to begin with ...
You tend to have a half-empty perspective on anything related to the U.S. :fp:
... here we go with polaris hates america ... therefore - i will ignore his points completely and just continue to use this tired line of reasoning ...
You tend to have a half-empty perspective on anything related to the U.S. :fp:
we are talking about tyrannical regimes that the US has gone in and deposed and then left a functioning democracy ... you gave me kuwait as an example ... how does that work?
I gave you:
Panama - Dictatorship to democratic republic
Grenada - Socialist dictatorship coup to democracy
South Korea - Prevented half the country from being part of the biggest craphole in the world
Kuwait - would be under the control of a dictorship right now without US intervention.
... here we go with polaris hates america ... therefore - i will ignore his points completely and just continue to use this tired line of reasoning ...
You should really change your name... "American Hater_X", maybe get Ed Norton to star as you in a movie abotu how much you hate America!!! :corn:
First thing my boss says when he walked in this morning is "Have you ever heard of Artur Davis".....um no. He is a die hard Fox watcher and radio listener so I KNEW it was a political thing. He just wanted to make the point that I won't hear about him in the media, blah blah blah.
WRONG.
I heard about him on the Pearl Jam Message Board!!!!!!!
so there.
So I'll just lie down and wait for the dream Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
dude, if he can't run a National Campaign, he surely can't run the Amercia...
You obviously have no clue about politics, and I would guess have no idea about upper management in any situation. The politics of getting there is completely different than competency. See America, Bank of. Or, MC, G.
and you have a clue...?!?! now that's some more funny shit...
Rudy didn't win, didn't even come close...now he's not even running...and you still think he's the man for the job...yeah, you have lots of clues...
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I find your 1st and 3rd sentences (skipping the having said that) interesting when put together. :?
What exactly did Obama accomplish? Romney has actually accomplished more at this point than Obama did when he was elected. You should stop with the liberal rhetoric. Obama has not accomplished what he set out to. Leaders have only themselves to blame. Blaming others is not leadership.
... liberal rhetoric! ... listen - i wouldn't vote for obama nor any other democrat ... i think i'm objective enough to see tho that a huge part of his failure is his seeming necessity to please the republicans when their only agenda is to screw him over ... it is evident ... his failure is due in large part to the partisanship by which americans view politics ... these politicians don't care about the people ... they are in it for their own personal goals ... mitt is a prime example of that ...
OBAMA HAD BOTH HOUSES FOR 2 YEARS!!!! Sorry for the caps, but folks seem to keep forgetting this. That is more time than any President in the last 50 years. And if anything the impact of those 2 years is what should be getting felt now, not the last 18 months (especially if the argument is it takes time). And he squandered it worrying about his legacy (health care). Which is sort of ironic for a President to do in the first year of his intended 8 year stay. That's usually reserved for years 7 and 8.....
Umm, maybe he had both the house and the senate, BUT there wasnt a clear enough majority in either to push much of anything through.
I find it depressingly funny that the party slamming the pres so much about his percieved failures are content to sit with their thumbs up their asses doing NOTHING on their own to help the country out of the mess that greed built.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Comments
Well - you're confusing 2 issues. Yes, there is profiteering. That's always going to happen. I wish it could be eliminated in all parts of the gov't. There's always a trade off, and we as a country need to correct that. But, if the objective was good (which, again, I can see debate on), then that's a trade off I'm willing to make at this point. But, I believe you think that's why Bush went in. And that is beyond silly. I believe he was aware of that by product and weighed it as part of the decision to go in. You think it was the decision. Well, if you (as in you personally, not the generic you that might allude to the President) set your agenda before you look at the facts, your conclusion will match your reality.
But, again - the innocent lives thing - how many innocents did Hussein and the Taliban destroy? How many more would they have? And at what cost to the overall instability of the region? All difficult assessments that are near impossible for you or me to fully make with the information we have.
dude ... the math isn't even close ... ask an innocent iraqi or afghanistani person and they are probably gonna tell you they preferred it the way it was ...
and you really need to look at the historical impacts of us foreign policy in that region ... to see that you guys not only fuck it up over there for those people - that many of the so called evil you are purging are people you guys put in place ...
I agree he ran a poor campaign. But, that's the unfortunate reality of politics. At some point, the intelligent folks say - screw this. I don't need this. There are gov'ts abroad that will hire me without me having to deal with this stress/crap. So, we end up with the candidates we so richly deserve. One just hopes we get lucky every 40 years or so.....
He would have made a GREAT President. He successfully ran a LIBERAL based, most populated, complicated anything in the world extremely succesfully (and was so popular, led to a 16 year run of Republican leadership of said LIBERAL Bastion - not sure what the last few years have been, but the city is beginning to feel the Independence). He brought it from a literal shit hole back to its rightful place on top of the world. So, I don't think it's too much of a reach for him to take the country to similar heights. But, neither of our suppositions can be proven.
why bother...will it change anything...? again, you clearly have no clue about the OBL raid...none...and I'm not here to educate you...that's your job and you earned an F....
my statement was clear and simple...sure it can be seen as "speculation"...just as your statements can be seen as "speculation"...the fact is, no one can say anything to you that will change your mind...sadly you don't even know that...
you're welcome...
dude, if he can't run a National Campaign, he surely can't run the Amercia...
Ha, ha, ha. No need to check. I am well aware we often trade off the lesser of 2 evils, which later becomes the evil. Again, my response is - welcome to the real world. I also realize while we will leave it a better place, it won't be perfect by any stretch. The latter can only come when they strive to help themselves (which Bush was trying to do and partially succeeded with elections and such). Which goes to your former point. The fact that some/many don't know any better says all you need to know.
I always wonder why everyone wants to come here. We suck. Stay out!
post ww2 .. name one place america has left for the better? ... did you guys change anything in vietnam except massacre many people? ... nicaragua? ... guatemala? ... iran? ... anywhere? ...
ahhhh ... sorry - i originally mistook you for understanding the real reasons why you guys go to war ... it appears you believe that america goes to war for altruistic reasons ... :? ...
that being the case - there's really not a discussion here as we are discussing from opposite ends of our own reality ... and i'm not really interested in getting into the whole war profiteering economic imperialism discussion again ...
You obviously have no clue about politics, and I would guess have no idea about upper management in any situation. The politics of getting there is completely different than competency. See America, Bank of. Or, MC, G.
What a cop out answer. Yes, there was some super, top secret reason that only Obama had..... Thank Obama for Obama (see what I did there? ).
So, in other words - people that want to help themselves are much more successful capitalizing (sorry, pun intended) on our help than those that don't? Hmmmm. Interesting.
The dong accomplished what the bullet couldn't.
kuwait? ... not a single bit of that first gulf war was fought in kuwait ... kuwait is in the same place as it has been ... as for korea ... the country should never have been split up to begin with ...
and you have a clue...?!?! now that's some more funny shit...
Rudy didn't win, didn't even come close...now he's not even running...and you still think he's the man for the job...yeah, you have lots of clues...
thanks for proving my point....
have a good one... :P
we are talking about tyrannical regimes that the US has gone in and deposed and then left a functioning democracy ... you gave me kuwait as an example ... how does that work?
No, clearly it's always completely empty.
Panama - Dictatorship to democratic republic
Grenada - Socialist dictatorship coup to democracy
South Korea - Prevented half the country from being part of the biggest craphole in the world
Kuwait - would be under the control of a dictorship right now without US intervention.
boom goes the dynamite.
You should really change your name... "American Hater_X", maybe get Ed Norton to star as you in a movie abotu how much you hate America!!! :corn:
WRONG.
I heard about him on the Pearl Jam Message Board!!!!!!!
so there.
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
i want to get rid of that _x ... when the board changed over - it wouldn't allow me to use polaris anymore ...
anyhoo - you flag-waving USA chanting folks can continue to see things through rose coloured glasses ... i would have to if i was american ...
:ugeek:
I find it depressingly funny that the party slamming the pres so much about his percieved failures are content to sit with their thumbs up their asses doing NOTHING on their own to help the country out of the mess that greed built.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14