A smoke-free country? New Zealand taxes aim for it

Jason P

My biggest question ... where will all the Hobbits move to?

http://news.yahoo.com/smoke-free-country-zealand-taxes-aim-063909666--finance.html

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — There are smoke-free bars, smoke-free parks, even smoke-free college campuses. But a smoke-free country?

New Zealand's government on Thursday squeezed smokers more than ever by announcing a 40 percent hike in tobacco taxes over the next four years. Prices here are already among the highest in the world, and by 2016 they will top 20 New Zealand dollars ($15) a pack on average.

Officials hope higher taxes and new restrictions will bring the nation of 4.4 million closer to a recent pledge to snuff out the habit entirely by 2025. Other countries have lauded the idea of trying to wean their populace off tobacco, but few, if any, have been willing to put a date on it.

....

pandora

Fast forward 75 years, yes I think we can be closer to a smoke free world.

My sisters friends who are from the high smoking era, they are in their sixties,
are dying from cancer one after another. Multiple deaths a year.
I assume but don't know in all cases that it is linked to tobacco. But there is much suffering
and for me they seem so young, me being 56.

I have been told how beautiful New Zealand is, by friends that have visited.
It would be lovely if they could accomplish this, most especially for the children.
The article says recent pledge so perhaps the country's majority is on board for this.
I wish them luck and admire their conviction.

chadwick

pandora wrote:

Fast forward 75 years, yes I think we can be closer to a smoke free world.

My sisters friends who are from the high smoking era, they are in their sixties,
are dying from cancer one after another. Multiple deaths a year.
I assume but don't know in all cases that it is linked to tobacco. But there is much suffering
and for me they seem so young, me being 56.

I have been told how beautiful New Zealand is, by friends that have visited.
It would be lovely if they could accomplish this, most especially for the children.
The article says recent pledge so perhaps the country's majority is on board for this.
I wish them luck and admire their conviction.

my dad died @ 52
he smoked up to 2 packs a day for a long time
he had a massive heart attack and at the time of the H.A. he had pneumonia something fierce

peacefrompaul

Good for New Zealand, I guess. I doubt that they will get rid of it... Too much money to be made on taxes. I suppose they will just tax the hell out of alcohol if tobacco goes away.

Johnny Abruzzo

Things like cigarettes that cause so much spending on health care should be taxed like hell. Same goes for soda (not banning large containers, which is ridiculous).

In the "civilized" world (you know, not in the USA), where universal health care is, well, universal, this is especially appropriate.

PJ_Soul

I think it's stupid to even try for a smoke free country. If people want to smoke they should be able to (I support smoke-free establishments of course). In Canada smokers do pay outrageous taxes on cigarettes, which are high enough that they more than make up for any additional health care they may need as a result of smoking. They should be lower, actually - they're paying more than they're taking compared to other citizens. But aside from that, I support taxing such products. Just not disallowing people from partaking. Plus, prohibition DOES NOT WORK. You do stuff like this, and you've got yet ANOTHER illegal smuggler-based trade on your hands.

satansbed

you can do it in New Zealand because it is nationwide, im not sure you could do something like this in the states where every county sets their own taxes on things like cigarettes.

Johnny Abruzzo

PJ_Soul wrote:

I think it's stupid to even try for a smoke free country. If people want to smoke they should be able to (I support smoke-free establishments of course). In Canada smokers do pay outrageous taxes on cigarettes, which are high enough that they more than make up for any additional health care they may need as a result of smoking. They should be lower, actually - they're paying more than they're taking compared to other citizens. But aside from that, I support taxing such products. Just not disallowing people from partaking. Plus, prohibition DOES NOT WORK. You do stuff like this, and you've got yet ANOTHER illegal smuggler-based trade on your hands.

Yep. Prohibition is always a terrible idea. How many more history lessons do we really need on this?

I think the Kiwis have the right idea here.

WaveCameCrashin

It will do nothing more than create a black market for cigarettes. Just another grand scheme by a bunch of utopian master minds. If people want to smoke it should be their choice. What ever happened to free will ? Why cant these beuaracrats leave people alone ? Why doesn't N.Z outlaw alcohol also? Why not it kills ?

PJ_Soul

WaveCameCrashin wrote:

It will do nothing more than create a black market for cigarettes. Just another grand scheme by a bunch of utopian master minds. If people want to smoke it should be their choice. What ever happened to free will ? Why cant these beuaracrats leave people alone ? Why doesn't N.Z outlaw alcohol also? Why not it kills ?

Exactly.

hedonist

It makes me wonder...what will be the next thing decided by others - by those with the almighty wisdom beyond us little folks - who think they know what's best for us?

Where is the line drawn, how much farther will it go?

Baby steps, baby steps...until we're so far away, we can't even see where the line was to begin with.

No lines!

morello

Jeez, you guys know more about what's happening in my country than I do!! I guess I'm kinda distracted by impending world trips so not following the news so much atm.

Johnny Abruzzo

WaveCameCrashin wrote:

It will do nothing more than create a black market for cigarettes. Just another grand scheme by a bunch of utopian master minds. If people want to smoke it should be their choice. What ever happened to free will ? Why cant these beuaracrats leave people alone ? Why doesn't N.Z outlaw alcohol also? Why not it kills ?

They haven't outlawed cigarettes.

morello

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

WaveCameCrashin wrote:

It will do nothing more than create a black market for cigarettes. Just another grand scheme by a bunch of utopian master minds. If people want to smoke it should be their choice. What ever happened to free will ? Why cant these beuaracrats leave people alone ? Why doesn't N.Z outlaw alcohol also? Why not it kills ?

They haven't outlawed cigarettes.

"it should be their choice" Yep but what about taxpayers then having to foot the bill to cover smokers health costs(public health is predominant healthcare here)?

PJ_Soul

morello wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

WaveCameCrashin wrote:

It will do nothing more than create a black market for cigarettes. Just another grand scheme by a bunch of utopian master minds. If people want to smoke it should be their choice. What ever happened to free will ? Why cant these beuaracrats leave people alone ? Why doesn't N.Z outlaw alcohol also? Why not it kills ?

They haven't outlawed cigarettes.

"it should be their choice" Yep but what about taxpayers then having to foot the bill to cover smokers health costs(public health is predominant healthcare here)?

As I mentioned, in Canada smokers pay enormous taxes on cigarettes ($10 - $11 for a pack, and more than half of that is taxes). Smokers more than make up for whatever extra health care costs there are over a lifetime.

morello

WaveCameCrashin wrote:

It will do nothing more than create a black market for cigarettes. Just another grand scheme by a bunch of utopian master minds. If people want to smoke it should be their choice. What ever happened to free will ? Why cant these beuaracrats leave people alone ? Why doesn't N.Z outlaw alcohol also? Why not it kills ?

PJ_Soul wrote:

morello wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

They haven't outlawed cigarettes.

"it should be their choice" Yep but what about taxpayers then having to foot the bill to cover smokers health costs(public health is predominant healthcare here)?

As I mentioned, in Canada smokers pay enormous taxes on cigarettes ($10 - $11 for a pack, and more than half of that is taxes). Smokers more than make up for whatever extra health care costs there are over a lifetime.

Yeah I think that's what they're talking about here, hiking the taxes so hugely it becomes a big discouragement to smoke & then yeah covers the cost of the health care.

PJ_Soul

morello wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

morello wrote:

"it should be their choice" Yep but what about taxpayers then having to foot the bill to cover smokers health costs(public health is predominant healthcare here)?

As I mentioned, in Canada smokers pay enormous taxes on cigarettes ($10 - $11 for a pack, and more than half of that is taxes). Smokers more than make up for whatever extra health care costs there are over a lifetime.

Yeah I think that's what they're talking about here, hiking the taxes so hugely it becomes a big discouragement to smoke & then yeah covers the cost of the health care.

Yeah, I'm sure it's a deterrent for young people; they don't start smoking as much. But It's not really a deterrent for people already addicted. They will still pay it because they're addicts (and of course seek out cheaper smokes on the blackmarket), or because they love to smoke. But yeah, if future generations don't start, then great.

morello

PJ_Soul wrote:

morello wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

As I mentioned, in Canada smokers pay enormous taxes on cigarettes ($10 - $11 for a pack, and more than half of that is taxes). Smokers more than make up for whatever extra health care costs there are over a lifetime.

Yeah I think that's what they're talking about here, hiking the taxes so hugely it becomes a big discouragement to smoke & then yeah covers the cost of the health care.

Yeah, I'm sure it's a deterrent for young people; they don't start smoking as much. But It's not really a deterrent for people already addicted. They will still pay it because they're addicts (and of course seek out cheaper smokes on the blackmarket), or because they love to smoke. But yeah, if future generations don't start, then great.

If one older person gives up because of it + it helps pay for the cost of the healthcare it's worth it I say.

PJPOWER

Old thread, but just noticed New Zealand has ramped up the smoking prohibition.  I hate cigarettes.  They smell like shit and make people around them smell like shit too.  They have been a key factor in many deaths of people I love, but is prohibition the answer?  

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/09/asia/new-zealand-outlaw-smoking-intl-hnk/index.html
I’m torn, I dislike prohibition about as much as I dislike cigarettes, ha.

Meltdown99

Prohibition never works, in Ontario a pack of smokes is around $15 or more.  So most common sense people just buy off indigenous communities at a fraction of the cost, I’m sure they have a large black market tobacco industry… 

CM189191

Meltdown99 said:

Prohibition never works, in Ontario a pack of smokes is around $15 or more.  So most common sense people just buy off indigenous communities at a fraction of the cost, I’m sure they have a large black market tobacco industry… 

'never works'







https://uwaterloo.ca/tobacco-use-canada/adult-tobacco-use/smoking-provinces/ontario

PJPOWER

CM189191 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Prohibition never works, in Ontario a pack of smokes is around $15 or more.  So most common sense people just buy off indigenous communities at a fraction of the cost, I’m sure they have a large black market tobacco industry… 

'never works'







https://uwaterloo.ca/tobacco-use-canada/adult-tobacco-use/smoking-provinces/ontario

I’m going to invoke the correlation vs causation argument here.  Is the decrease due to laws or due to other factors, like increased knowledge of the adverse side effects of smoking?  The cigarette marketing got hit hard in the late 90s.
Also in the 90s, we started seeing a lot of new deaths and effects from long term cigarettes use stemming from the soldiers of WW2 (when they were given out like candy), so there are a ton of other factors that could weigh as much or more than new laws.  

Meltdown99

The decrease is likely to people being more health conscious.  I smoked for 20 years.  I never quit because of cost…health is why?

Lets make alcohol illegal?  It’s just poison in the end and destroys far more lives and families than tobacco does…

Meltdown99

I also suspect any information about tobacco decreases are inaccurate due to the huge black market industry…pretty hard to know.  Same as cannabis, a huge black market exist…

PJPOWER

Meltdown99 said:

The decrease is likely to people being more health conscious.  I smoked for 20 years.  I never quit because of cost…health is why?

Lets make alcohol illegal?  It’s just poison in the end and destroys far more lives and families than tobacco does…

When we made alcohol illegal, it didn’t go so well.  You would have thought a lesson could have been learned about prohibition then…But here we are, having the same tiring argument, ha

The Juggler

I've despised cigarettes for as long as I can remember. The only thing I wish was different during my college years and in my 20's was if the smoking bans were in place already. Even now, just thinking of how horrible my clothes smelled the next morning makes me slightly nauseous. 

Not sure about prohibition either but just making them illegal in so many public places has had much of the same effect over the last twenty years or so. 

HughFreakingDillon

The Juggler said:

I've despised cigarettes for as long as I can remember. The only thing I wish was different during my college years and in my 20's was if the smoking bans were in place already. Even now, just thinking of how horrible my clothes smelled the next morning makes me slightly nauseous. 

Not sure about prohibition either but just making them illegal in so many public places has had much of the same effect over the last twenty years or so. 

I think this is the key. prohibition doesn't work. hitting social animals where it hurts does. (I used to smoke-about 15 years or so until my kids were born-quit because of that and the cost). 

cutz

HughFreakingDillon said:

The Juggler said:

I've despised cigarettes for as long as I can remember. The only thing I wish was different during my college years and in my 20's was if the smoking bans were in place already. Even now, just thinking of how horrible my clothes smelled the next morning makes me slightly nauseous. 

Not sure about prohibition either but just making them illegal in so many public places has had much of the same effect over the last twenty years or so. 

I think this is the key. prohibition doesn't work. hitting social animals where it hurts does. (I used to smoke-about 15 years or so until my kids were born-quit because of that and the cost). 

Wish my best friend of almost 40 years would've done what you did(quit when his kids were born). He was gone(ONLY 50) and wasn't around when they graduated HS.

Lost my Dad when he was only 57.

I tried cigarettes when I was in middle school and it felt like I threw a bunch of nails down my throat. That was enough for me not to smoke cigarettes.

HughFreakingDillon

cutz said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

The Juggler said:

I've despised cigarettes for as long as I can remember. The only thing I wish was different during my college years and in my 20's was if the smoking bans were in place already. Even now, just thinking of how horrible my clothes smelled the next morning makes me slightly nauseous. 

Not sure about prohibition either but just making them illegal in so many public places has had much of the same effect over the last twenty years or so. 

I think this is the key. prohibition doesn't work. hitting social animals where it hurts does. (I used to smoke-about 15 years or so until my kids were born-quit because of that and the cost). 

Wish my best friend of almost 40 years would've done what you did(quit when his kids were born). He was gone(ONLY 50) and wasn't around when they graduated HS.

Lost my Dad when he was only 57.

I tried cigarettes when I was in middle school and it felt like I threw a bunch of nails down my throat. That was enough for me not to smoke cigarettes.

it was about my 40th time trying and I had a few "do overs" and some "I'll only smoke when I drink" durations, till I quit full time forever 7-8 years ago. 

my health suffered as a result, however. gained a ton of weight that now I struggle with. not sure which is worse. 

cutz

HughFreakingDillon said:

cutz said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

The Juggler said:

I've despised cigarettes for as long as I can remember. The only thing I wish was different during my college years and in my 20's was if the smoking bans were in place already. Even now, just thinking of how horrible my clothes smelled the next morning makes me slightly nauseous. 

Not sure about prohibition either but just making them illegal in so many public places has had much of the same effect over the last twenty years or so. 

I think this is the key. prohibition doesn't work. hitting social animals where it hurts does. (I used to smoke-about 15 years or so until my kids were born-quit because of that and the cost). 

Wish my best friend of almost 40 years would've done what you did(quit when his kids were born). He was gone(ONLY 50) and wasn't around when they graduated HS.

Lost my Dad when he was only 57.

I tried cigarettes when I was in middle school and it felt like I threw a bunch of nails down my throat. That was enough for me not to smoke cigarettes.

it was about my 40th time trying and I had a few "do overs" and some "I'll only smoke when I drink" durations, till I quit full time forever 7-8 years ago. 

my health suffered as a result, however. gained a ton of weight that now I struggle with. not sure which is worse. 

Yeah, as you know, Nicotine might be the most addictive habit to break.