JP Morgan - the Fallout

puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
edited May 2012 in A Moving Train
Could this be another Leason/Baring Bank event? or another Too Big to Fail scenario?

Weren’t derivatives one of the major issues Barney Franks tried to get in his financial bill after the Bailout crisis that got written out of the Bill?

This is something I'd like to hear from Romney (who has these private capital funds and private investment firms).

I'd like to hear President Obama on the how do we protect the taxpayer from these Banks and private capital and investment firms?
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • pakalolopakalolo Posts: 56
    "If you’re wondering why you should care if some idiot trader (who apparently has been making $100 million a year at Chase, a company that has been the recipient of at least $390 billion in emergency Fed loans) loses $2 billion for Jamie Dimon, here’s why: because J.P. Morgan Chase is a federally-insured depository institution that has been and will continue to be the recipient of massive amounts of public assistance. If the bank fails, someone will reach into your pocket to pay for the cleanup. So when they gamble like drunken sailors, it’s everyone’s problem."

    Matt Taibbi

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/bl ... z1urLPwUDz
  • ComeToTXComeToTX Austin Posts: 7,874
    pakalolo wrote:
    "If you’re wondering why you should care if some idiot trader (who apparently has been making $100 million a year at Chase, a company that has been the recipient of at least $390 billion in emergency Fed loans) loses $2 billion for Jamie Dimon, here’s why: because J.P. Morgan Chase is a federally-insured depository institution that has been and will continue to be the recipient of massive amounts of public assistance. If the bank fails, someone will reach into your pocket to pay for the cleanup. So when they gamble like drunken sailors, it’s everyone’s problem."

    Matt Taibbi

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/bl ... z1urLPwUDz

    I'd vote for Taibbi for president right now.
    This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    puremagic wrote:
    Could this be another Leason/Baring Bank event? or another Too Big to Fail scenario?

    Weren’t derivatives one of the major issues Barney Franks tried to get in his financial bill after the Bailout crisis that got written out of the Bill?

    This is something I'd like to hear from Romney (who has these private capital funds and private investment firms).

    I'd like to hear President Obama on the how do we protect the taxpayer from these Banks and private capital and investment firms?
    somebody needs to go to jail.

    this whole system needs to be reworked. they gamble with everybody else's money and when they lose it all they do not learn. they go back to the bailout tit, get bailed out, and then they do the same thing over and over again.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    I'll state the obvious and that is to stop bailing them out. That simple. Let these companies fail.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,897
    unsung wrote:
    I'll state the obvious and that is to stop bailing them out. That simple. Let these companies fail.

    I agree to an extent but how the hell do you let a depository bank fail? Especially like JP Morgan, millions would lose everything.

    Depository and investment banks cannot be the same thing.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    everyone ... the large elephant over in the corner ... name is ... REGULATION ...
  • ComeToTXComeToTX Austin Posts: 7,874
    polaris_x wrote:
    everyone ... the large elephant over in the corner ... name is ... REGULATION ...

    Yep. "Inside Job" should be required viewing for everyone. I re-watch it every time this shit happens again.
    This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,897
    ComeToTX wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    everyone ... the large elephant over in the corner ... name is ... REGULATION ...

    Yep. "Inside Job" should be required viewing for everyone. I re-watch it every time this shit happens again.

    Read "Too Big to Fail" too. Sorkin did a great job.
  • ComeToTXComeToTX Austin Posts: 7,874
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    ComeToTX wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    everyone ... the large elephant over in the corner ... name is ... REGULATION ...

    Yep. "Inside Job" should be required viewing for everyone. I re-watch it every time this shit happens again.

    Read "Too Big to Fail" too. Sorkin did a great job.

    I watched the movie but I heard the book is much better. It's on my list.
    This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    edited May 2012
    polaris_x wrote:
    everyone ... the large elephant over in the corner ... name is ... REGULATION ...


    Your politics is so confusing. You complain about government being tied into markets through special interests, then you also advocate more of it.

    This isn't a problem of too little government regulation and government involvement, it's a problem of too much. If these companies failed, that would be that. That's real "regulation". That's market driven regulation. Let them lose money and don't help them if they do. That's the only thing they actually care about.

    It's not the companies doing the bailing out and creating the perpetual moral hazard. That's the government. The government is the organization mandating what banks can and can't do. Ironically, Jamie Dimon advises the New York FED. You want more of that? You fucking kidding me?

    The government is setting the rules here, they create the environment. Everyone just casts a blind eye to that FACT and act surprised when companies continue to seek profits and take excessive risks knowing the rules and the environment - which is: there's no such thing as excessive risk. Why? Because they live in a moral hazard environment. As is - they can always count on the good ol' us taxpayer to bail us out, if the risk it too large. That is, until we can't anymore. Than we're all going to be in the toilet... literally.

    Who would you rather flush, them or all of us? I say them. Stupidity should never be rewarded.
    Post edited by inlet13 on
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  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    it's only confusing because you don't understand it ...

    part of that is that you have your belief system and i have mine ... you think gov't is responsible for all the problems ... i think bad gov't under the influence of corporations is ... big difference ...
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,897
    The regulation should be that FDIC banks cannot also be investment banks. They used to be seperate and they still should be. If deposits are not being gambled then these companies can fail.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    polaris_x wrote:
    it's only confusing because you don't understand it ...

    part of that is that you have your belief system and i have mine ... you think gov't is responsible for all the problems ... i think bad gov't under the influence of corporations is ... big difference ...


    My lack of understanding comes from your push to tie government to corporations via regulations/intervention. Yet, also knowing of your desire to separate the two because you believe many problems stem from their unity.

    It seems counterintuitive. So, I'm saying - Why not cut the tie? If government removed itself, there would be no path for influence.

    Profit-seekers, by their very nature will continue to do everything in their power to make money - regardless of the environment created by regulators. In fact, many times the boards of the regulators will be overtaken by the profit-seekers themselves (see our boy from JP Morgan). I am not one to believe government doesn't try to help... I am one to say, they make things worse with their compassion.

    The only thing that will really "regulate them" is allowing failure and loss. Allow markets to work and weed out the crap.
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  • Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The regulation should be that FDIC banks cannot also be investment banks. They used to be seperate and they still should be. If deposits are not being gambled then these companies can fail.

    Yeah but "going back" is going to tank the stock market, won't it?

    I don't give two shits either way, thought I think you are right about this separation being PART of a solution.

    I think Inlet is ultimately right that unless the Fed is divorced from offering bailouts to investment banks, then we will never have a real market-checked economy. Unfortunately it is the same people who ultimate run\control both the Fed and the Banks (in a very real sense the banks OWN the Fed, by definition of membership in the system \ Fed Reserve Stock Ownership rules ... sure the board of governors is appointed by Prez. but c'mon, haha) ... and they will not reduce the totality of control on their own system to please you or me.

    If anything they will continue to drive us further in to crisis and social instability in the name of FURTHER CONSOLIDATING their power\control (never let a good crisis go to waste).

    :(
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The regulation should be that FDIC banks cannot also be investment banks. They used to be seperate and they still should be. If deposits are not being gambled then these companies can fail.


    Deposits are always gambled on. Look up fractional reserve banking.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

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  • inlet13 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The regulation should be that FDIC banks cannot also be investment banks. They used to be seperate and they still should be. If deposits are not being gambled then these companies can fail.


    Deposits are always gambled on. Look up fractional reserve banking.

    True, but the repeal of Glass-Steagal, and the conglomeration of the investment banking sector with the commercial banking sector IS a big problem, in any event.

    Big enough that the BoE Governor just made a speech condemning it and saying that Britain must reinstate the divide between the two in order to save itself.

    Shit, if the BoE is now pushing this, you know it must be bad.
    Desperate times ...
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    inlet13 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The regulation should be that FDIC banks cannot also be investment banks. They used to be seperate and they still should be. If deposits are not being gambled then these companies can fail.


    Deposits are always gambled on. Look up fractional reserve banking.

    True, but the repeal of Glass-Steagal, and the conglomeration of the investment banking sector with the commercial banking sector IS a big problem, in any event.

    Big enough that the BoE Governor just made a speech condemning it and saying that Britain must reinstate the divide between the two in order to save itself.

    Shit, if the BoE is now pushing this, you know it must be bad.
    Desperate times ...

    I'm not saying it is or isn't a problem. To me - the problem is government involvement in banking (period). That's why I find it ironic when people believe the solution is more government.

    I just keep coming back to many thinking that banks (pre- or post- Glass-Steagal) don't make risks. I mean anyone who doesn't consider debt (including loans) risky, has issues. People aren't putting two and two together, tho.
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  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    inlet13 wrote:
    My lack of understanding comes from your push to tie government to corporations via regulations/intervention. Yet, also knowing of your desire to separate the two because you believe many problems stem from their unity.

    It seems counterintuitive. So, I'm saying - Why not cut the tie? If government removed itself, there would be no path for influence.

    Profit-seekers, by their very nature will continue to do everything in their power to make money - regardless of the environment created by regulators. In fact, many times the boards of the regulators will be overtaken by the profit-seekers themselves (see our boy from JP Morgan). I am not one to believe government doesn't try to help... I am one to say, they make things worse with their compassion.

    The only thing that will really "regulate them" is allowing failure and loss. Allow markets to work and weed out the crap.

    because you tie everything together as if they are inherently linked ... i don't ... i believe in gov't ... i believe in regulation ... i think the two can help form the foundation of strong economic system ... you don't ...

    and the reason not to cut the tie? ... is deregulation ... the consequences and results ...
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    Maybe someone here with more knowledge could explain how, this loss by JP does not impact its holdings in government (local, State and Federal) bonds and pensions? [The only saving grace here is that the Social Security pension has not been privatized, or it could have potentially been wiped out.]

    The one regulation, proposed by the Obama administration for the Dodd/Frank Bill– the Volcker Rule – could have prevented this JP Morgan mess.

    … Announced earlier this year by the Obama administration, the so-called Volcker Rule was devised to prohibit banks from owning, operating or sponsoring hedge funds or private equity operations. The aim of the Volcker Rule is to prevent the nation's largest banks from using taxpayer-provided financing -- from the Fed's discount window, for one -- to fund trades for their own accounts.

    The one bank that is a player in this mess Citibank successfully opposed the Volcker Rule which has still not been enacted upon by Congress as are many of the other regulations of the Dodd/Frank bill.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,897
    inlet13 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The regulation should be that FDIC banks cannot also be investment banks. They used to be seperate and they still should be. If deposits are not being gambled then these companies can fail.


    Deposits are always gambled on. Look up fractional reserve banking.

    Yes, but instead of loaning the money (responsibly), which carries less risk and could help the economy, JP Morgan gambled like a hedge fund. I really don't think you can compare the risk of the two.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    inlet13 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The regulation should be that FDIC banks cannot also be investment banks. They used to be seperate and they still should be. If deposits are not being gambled then these companies can fail.


    Deposits are always gambled on. Look up fractional reserve banking.

    Yes, but instead of loaning the money (responsibly), which carries less risk and could help the economy, JP Morgan gambled like a hedge fund. I really don't think you can compare the risk of the two.

    The risk is dependent on the investment. Loans can be very risky - see housing crash for proof. MBS were packaged mortgages, afterall.

    But, regardless, both are risky. I won't say one can't be more risky than the other - it can. I'm simply saying acting like there's no risk involved in one of the two is simply false.
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  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    Why central banks are to blame for JP Morgan's moves:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/irony-101-or-how-fed-blew-jpmorgans-hedge-22-tweets
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