I think we're focusing on all the wrong nuances of the quote. Whether he said "wiped off the map" or "eliminated" or "erased from the history of time", only the most apologetic of apologizers would suggest the meaning was anything resembling benign. What seems more relevant to me is that he's talking specifically about Jerusalem. You can argue that he "simply" wants the holy city outside of the control of Zionist Jews. Jerusalem being definitively outside the "original" borders of Israel, c. 1947, that is, indeed, a far cry from saying that he wants the nation of Israel eliminated.
From byrnzie's article:
Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, agrees that Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as, "the Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."[13] According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian." Instead, "he did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."
Again, while clearly antagonistic, the statement could be interpreted to be much more narrow than calling for the elimination of an entire nation.
And as for supplanting the national language, you live in America, right? Is America being destroyed by Spanish speaking people? No, thought not.
This is an interesting comparison that deserves it's own thread. Of course America isn't being destroyed by the influx of Spanish speakers, but to suggest that it isn't being changed is either naive or ignorant. This has much to do with how young a country the US is, relatively speaking, and indeed how ill-defined we are culturally (we being a nation of relatively recent immigrants). I say relatively recent because just about every people everywhere were immigrants at one point.
Anyhow, like I said, another thread, another day. The point here is that it's a questionable parallel because it's not as simple an answer as "no, thought not". America as a primarily English-speaking country IS being destroyed, in some connotative senses of the word, but whether that's a bad thing is open for debate. i.e., change is destruction, destruction is change. Bad/good isn't inherent.
Israel is the one country in the middle east that shares our US values and beliefs.
They DO NOT share my values...
Sincerely,
Citizen of the US
Seconded.
really? israel shares the same beliefs as the us? don't they deny jesus as being anything but a trouble maker and killed him? on the other hand muslims believe in jesus and the koran says he was a prophet sent by god.....go figure
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
really? israel shares the same beliefs as the us? don't they deny jesus as being anything but a trouble maker and killed him? on the other hand muslims believe in jesus and the koran says he was a prophet sent by god.....go figure
yes but they consider jesus a minor prophet and certainly not divine.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You guys are aware of the history concerning the whole "the Jews killed Jesus" thing, aren't you? And that there was this little thing called Vatican II?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
You guys are aware of the history concerning the whole "the Jews killed Jesus" thing, aren't you? And that there was this little thing called Vatican II?
yes, the Pharisees brought him to the romans accusing him of being an anarchist, anti-roman rabble rouser. pontius pilate found him innocent then the Sanhedrin demanded he be put to death and the romans acquiesced
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Not what I was getting at, but whatever...Also, bible isn't history, but again, whatever...And also, that's the story only according to the gospel of John, which was the latest of the gospels to be written, and as a result the most hostile to Jews (since by that time Judaism and burdgeoning Christianity were already beginning to see themselves as in competition). What I was getting at is that the Pope rejected the idea that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus at Vatican II because of that idea's long history as the basis for Christian anti-Jewish violence. So...not really an ok thing to be saying...
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Not what I was getting at, but whatever...Also, bible isn't history, but again, whatever...And also, that's the story only according to the gospel of John, which was the latest of the gospels to be written, and as a result the most hostile to Jews (since by that time Judaism and burdgeoning Christianity were already beginning to see themselves as in competition). What I was getting at is that the Pope rejected the idea that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus at Vatican II because of that idea's long history as the basis for Christian anti-Jewish violence. So...not really an ok thing to be saying...
oh, well if a pope said he was cool with it...... :roll:
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Great message. I'm sure a lot of us may feel cynical about this and, considering how tangled the world is, the history of war and so forth that's understandable to some extent, but I don't think wishing for peace can ever be a waste of time and I don't think hoping for peace is foolishness.
Thanks for posting this.
Well said Brian...but check this thread and see how far from the original post it got and how quick it got there...
I think the video is fantastic...someone trying to do something positive in a situation where there is so much of the negative
"God created surfing and Pearl Jam so that the truely gifted, talented and most intelligent people wouldnt rule the world"...adapted from my bumper sticker
Anyone try to step back and get an objective view of this?
I'll give it a shot...
The Question: Why do we hate Iran (and vice versa)?
We basically hate Iran because they took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979, right?
They took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979 because we allowed the former Shah of Iran in New York.
We held the Shah in New York because his pals, Rockerfeller and Kissinger pursuaded President Carter to allow him in for medical treatment.
He was allowed medical treatment in New York because he was ousted by the Islamic Revolution of Ayatohla Khoemeini and other Middle Eastern countries would not offer him refuge.
The Islamic Revolution came about because the oppressive Iranian government lead by the Shah and his oil dealings with the West.
The Iranian government was oppressive to the Iranian people because the Shah was put into power in a military coup orchestrated by the CIA in Operation Ajax that overthrew a democratically elected government.
Operation Ajax was executed because the democratically elected government in Iran, nationalized its oil fields so the Iranian people would share in the wealth of its natural oil resource.
...
I know.. there are other factors in the mix prior to 1979... like Iran saying shit about 'wiping Israel off of the map' and our providing Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons to use on Iranians durng that 8 year stalemate in the 1980s and Ahackeymajinnydaddy-o saying theholocaust never happened and our shooting down an Iranian passenger jet and their mining of the Persian Gulf and on and on... but it basically comes down to this:
We helped to create the shit we are in today because of our belief that the oil in the Iranian desert belongs to the United States and Iran should have known that. We can pretend that we have and had nothing to do with any of this and pretend it is all their fault. But, that's not the truth... is it?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,428
Great message. I'm sure a lot of us may feel cynical about this and, considering how tangled the world is, the history of war and so forth that's understandable to some extent, but I don't think wishing for peace can ever be a waste of time and I don't think hoping for peace is foolishness.
Thanks for posting this.
Well said Brian...but check this thread and see how far from the original post it got and how quick it got there...
I think the video is fantastic...someone trying to do something positive in a situation where there is so much of the negative
The train has had a tendency lately to fall into the Twilight Zone. Who know where this will go next!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Anyone try to step back and get an objective view of this?
I'll give it a shot...
The Question: Why do we hate Iran (and vice versa)?
We basically hate Iran because they took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979, right?
They took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979 because we allowed the former Shah of Iran in New York.
We held the Shah in New York because his pals, Rockerfeller and Kissinger pursuaded President Carter to allow him in for medical treatment.
He was allowed medical treatment in New York because he was ousted by the Islamic Revolution of Ayatohla Khoemeini and other Middle Eastern countries would not offer him refuge.
The Islamic Revolution came about because the oppressive Iranian government lead by the Shah and his oil dealings with the West.
The Iranian government was oppressive to the Iranian people because the Shah was put into power in a military coup orchestrated by the CIA in Operation Ajax that overthrew a democratically elected government.
Operation Ajax was executed because the democratically elected government in Iran, nationalized its oil fields so the Iranian people would share in the wealth of its natural oil resource.
...
I know.. there are other factors in the mix prior to 1979... like Iran saying shit about 'wiping Israel off of the map' and our providing Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons to use on Iranians durng that 8 year stalemate in the 1980s and Ahackeymajinnydaddy-o saying theholocaust never happened and our shooting down an Iranian passenger jet and their mining of the Persian Gulf and on and on... but it basically comes down to this:
We helped to create the shit we are in today because of our belief that the oil in the Iranian desert belongs to the United States and Iran should have known that. We can pretend that we have and had nothing to do with any of this and pretend it is all their fault. But, that's not the truth... is it?
:thumbup:
Yes, it is good to have some knowledge about history.
Great message. I'm sure a lot of us may feel cynical about this and, considering how tangled the world is, the history of war and so forth that's understandable to some extent, but I don't think wishing for peace can ever be a waste of time and I don't think hoping for peace is foolishness.
Thanks for posting this.
Well said Brian...but check this thread and see how far from the original post it got and how quick it got there...
I think the video is fantastic...someone trying to do something positive in a situation where there is so much of the negative
It got there as a part of the original post, not following it. usama posted the negativity right at the bottom of the header post: "Would be nice if bombs didn't drop down but that whole nuclear Iran conundrum sure is problematic."......then repeated the statement in the fourth post to ensure the thread went in that direction. A reminder that not everyone is interested in peace by peaceful means. He's also stated many times on this board that Iran should be 'blasted', so I wouldn't take his "would be nice if bombs didn't drop down" claim too seriously, either.
Anyone try to step back and get an objective view of this?
I'll give it a shot...
The Question: Why do we hate Iran (and vice versa)?
We basically hate Iran because they took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979, right?
They took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979 because we allowed the former Shah of Iran in New York.
We held the Shah in New York because his pals, Rockerfeller and Kissinger pursuaded President Carter to allow him in for medical treatment.
He was allowed medical treatment in New York because he was ousted by the Islamic Revolution of Ayatohla Khoemeini and other Middle Eastern countries would not offer him refuge.
The Islamic Revolution came about because the oppressive Iranian government lead by the Shah and his oil dealings with the West.
The Iranian government was oppressive to the Iranian people because the Shah was put into power in a military coup orchestrated by the CIA in Operation Ajax that overthrew a democratically elected government.
Operation Ajax was executed because the democratically elected government in Iran, nationalized its oil fields so the Iranian people would share in the wealth of its natural oil resource.
...
I know.. there are other factors in the mix prior to 1979... like Iran saying shit about 'wiping Israel off of the map' and our providing Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons to use on Iranians durng that 8 year stalemate in the 1980s and Ahackeymajinnydaddy-o saying theholocaust never happened and our shooting down an Iranian passenger jet and their mining of the Persian Gulf and on and on... but it basically comes down to this:
We helped to create the shit we are in today because of our belief that the oil in the Iranian desert belongs to the United States and Iran should have known that. We can pretend that we have and had nothing to do with any of this and pretend it is all their fault. But, that's not the truth... is it?
:thumbup:
Yes, it is good to have some knowledge about history.
I agree it is great to have a knowledge of history, and to be as educated as possible about issues in order to form accurate opinions...please dont take this as an attack on anything you have said cos its not...I just think personally that the problem with referring to history in relation to major and complex conflicts, is that each side will always have something else to drag up that will give them justification for hatred and revenge...I know this is overly simplistic...and it comes from a relatively uneducated "simple" person...but can a line be drawn in the sand...can both sides acknowledge they have done countless unspeakable wrongs to each other...is forgivene...probably not...but damn I like that video...showed it to my teenage boys...there was another video link of the same dialog but spoken my a large number of people...brang a tear to my eye.
Thanks for the thread
"God created surfing and Pearl Jam so that the truely gifted, talented and most intelligent people wouldnt rule the world"...adapted from my bumper sticker
I agree it is great to have a knowledge of history, and to be as educated as possible about issues in order to form accurate opinions...please dont take this as an attack on anything you have said cos its not...I just think personally that the problem with referring to history in relation to major and complex conflicts, is that each side will always have something else to drag up that will give them justification for hatred and revenge...I know this is overly simplistic...and it comes from a relatively uneducated "simple" person...but can a line be drawn in the sand...can both sides acknowledge they have done countless unspeakable wrongs to each other...is forgivene...probably not...but damn I like that video...showed it to my teenage boys...there was another video link of the same dialog but spoken my a large number of people...brang a tear to my eye.
Thanks for the thread
...
That was the point I was trying to make. That the U.S. is part of the problem... when we step back and look at the thing from an purely objective viewpoint.
Many Americans will turn a blind eye to our role... our actions... and come up with a simple (albeit, incorrect) assessment that Iran holds all of the blame and is therefore, Evil.
Both the U.S. foriegn policy and Iran have a hand in this mess. I believe we need to own up to our faults as well as hold Iran accountable for their faults... and the iranians have to do the same.
We are all paying for the greed and hatred of our grandfathers. How about we all... Americans and Iranians... reject the Inheritance of their greed and hatred and quit looking for more excuses to kill each other?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree it is great to have a knowledge of history, and to be as educated as possible about issues in order to form accurate opinions...please dont take this as an attack on anything you have said cos its not...I just think personally that the problem with referring to history in relation to major and complex conflicts, is that each side will always have something else to drag up that will give them justification for hatred and revenge...I know this is overly simplistic...and it comes from a relatively uneducated "simple" person...but can a line be drawn in the sand...can both sides acknowledge they have done countless unspeakable wrongs to each other...is forgivene...probably not...but damn I like that video...showed it to my teenage boys...there was another video link of the same dialog but spoken my a large number of people...brang a tear to my eye.
Thanks for the thread
...
That was the point I was trying to make. That the U.S. is part of the problem... when we step back and look at the thing from an purely objective viewpoint.
Many Americans will turn a blind eye to our role... our actions... and come up with a simple (albeit, incorrect) assessment that Iran holds all of the blame and is therefore, Evil.
Both the U.S. foriegn policy and Iran have a hand in this mess. I believe we need to own up to our faults as well as hold Iran accountable for their faults... and the iranians have to do the same.
We are all paying for the greed and hatred of our grandfathers. How about we all... Americans and Iranians... reject the Inheritance of their greed and hatred and quit looking for more excuses to kill each other?
Yeah sorry cosmo...like I said I am a bit simple (but hey, for a 3 year old dog I am doing ok!)...good point, well made
"God created surfing and Pearl Jam so that the truely gifted, talented and most intelligent people wouldnt rule the world"...adapted from my bumper sticker
...
That was the point I was trying to make. That the U.S. is part of the problem... when we step back and look at the thing from an purely objective viewpoint.
Many Americans will turn a blind eye to our role... our actions... and come up with a simple (albeit, incorrect) assessment that Iran holds all of the blame and is therefore, Evil.
Both the U.S. foriegn policy and Iran have a hand in this mess. I believe we need to own up to our faults as well as hold Iran accountable for their faults... and the iranians have to do the same.
We are all paying for the greed and hatred of our grandfathers. How about we all... Americans and Iranians... reject the Inheritance of their greed and hatred and quit looking for more excuses to kill each other?
Yeah sorry cosmo...like I said I am a bit simple (but hey, for a 3 year old dog I am doing ok!)...good point, well made[/quote]
...
No apologies. In fact, I was fortifying your message. There are many, many Americans that fail to recognize our shortcomings and pretend that our mistakes never happened. I just wish that they'd take an objective view every once in a while.
And you are a beautiful critter... don't look a day over 2 1/2 years old.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Of course it's our fault...what we need is someone to go around the world apologizing for us...wait...obismal already did that.
...
There you go again... Let me ask you...
Are you perfect and never make mistakes? Do you blame your mistakes on others?
Of course not. You man up an hold yourself accountable for your decisions and actions, right?
Why shouldn't we... as a nation do the same as you would?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Cate, the point of my hypothetical is that "Israel" is more than a name attached to a specific set of geographic boundaries. It denotes a certain set of substantive political realities, specifically those that give meaning to Jewish self-determination, which is, after all, the definition of Zionism. B seems to be of the opinion that talk of destroying the "Zionist regime" does not mean the destruction of Israel, because a state called "Israel" could exist within the same geographic boundaries without being a Zionist state in its essential political organization. My point is that this is utter nonsense, because it completely ignores everything that is defining about Israel to those that care about it.
Look at it from the Israeli perspective: the whole point of creating Israel was so that the Jewish people would be able to exercise self-determination in a state of our own.
You already have a state of your own. It's the state allotted to you by the U.N partition plan, which, when it suits you, you claim to have accepted. But you don't really accept it, as it runs contrary to Zionist ambitions, which is to steal all of the land between the Jordan river and the sea.
Zionism is based on racism and expansionism, and therefore it should be destroyed. And this has nothing to do with destroying 'Israel'.
DUBAI (Reuters) - Iran has hanged a man it said was an agent for Israeli intelligence agency Mossad whom it convicted of killing one of its nuclear scientists in 2010, Iranian state media reported on Tuesday.
Tehran has accused Israel and the United States of assassinating four Iranian scientists since 2010 in order to sabotage its nuclear program which the West suspects is hiding Iran's attempt to develop a nuclear weapons capability.
While Israel has declined to comment on the killings, it regards Iran's nuclear program as an existential threat and has threatened military action against Tehran. Washington has denied any U.S. role.
Twenty-four year old Majid Jamali Fashi was hanged at Tehran's Evin Prison after being sentenced to death in August last year for the murder of Massoud Ali-Mohammadi, Iran's state news agency quoted the central prosecutor's office as saying. It said he had confessed to the crime.
Ali-Mohammadi was killed in January 2010 when a remote-controlled bomb attached to a motorcycle outside his home in Tehran went off.
Tuesday's report said Fashi had confessed to travelling to Tel Aviv to receive training from Mossad before returning to Iran to plot the assassination.
A spokesman for Iran's Atomic Energy Organization said at the time that Ali-Mohammadi, a 50-year-old Tehran University professor, was not involved in its activities.
The most recent attack on an Iranian scientist occurred in January. Mostafa Ahmadi-Roshan - a deputy director of the Natanz uranium enrichment facility - was killed when a magnetic bomb planted on his vehicle detonated.
Israel has a policy of not commenting on the allegations but an unnamed Israeli source previously said the daylight killings provoked panic in surviving colleagues and generate a phenomenon Mossad veterans dub "virtual defection" which hinders Iran's nuclear progress.
Last month, Iranian intelligence officials said they had arrested 15 people they called a "major terror and sabotage network with links to the Zionist regime". The group had plotted to assassinate an Iranian scientist in February, the authorities said.
Iranian officials have also accused Israel of infiltrating neighboring Azerbaijan to organize attacks against the Islamic Republic.
Unsubstantiated reports in the Iranian media earlier this month said Israel has pushed for the transfer Of 1,200 members of the exiled Iranian rebel group Mujahideen Khalq Organization (MKO) from their base in Iraq to Azerbaijan.
Late last year Israel distanced itself from the MKO's efforts to be removed from the U.S. terrorism blacklist, saying it did not consider the group to be "an asset".
Iran denies Western accusations it is seeking to develop a nuclear weapons capability, but major powers are pushing Tehran to become more transparent and cooperative ahead of talks later this month.
Israel says it could attack Iran if it thinks that is the only way to stop it from getting nuclear arms.
British Foreign Secretary William Hague on Monday warned the European Union would impose tougher sanctions on Iran if it failed to take concrete steps to allay international concerns over its nuclear program.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
From byrnzie's article:
Again, while clearly antagonistic, the statement could be interpreted to be much more narrow than calling for the elimination of an entire nation.
Third
Anyhow, like I said, another thread, another day. The point here is that it's a questionable parallel because it's not as simple an answer as "no, thought not". America as a primarily English-speaking country IS being destroyed, in some connotative senses of the word, but whether that's a bad thing is open for debate. i.e., change is destruction, destruction is change. Bad/good isn't inherent.
really? israel shares the same beliefs as the us? don't they deny jesus as being anything but a trouble maker and killed him? on the other hand muslims believe in jesus and the koran says he was a prophet sent by god.....go figure
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
yes but they consider jesus a minor prophet and certainly not divine.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
yes, the Pharisees brought him to the romans accusing him of being an anarchist, anti-roman rabble rouser. pontius pilate found him innocent then the Sanhedrin demanded he be put to death and the romans acquiesced
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
oh, well if a pope said he was cool with it...... :roll:
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
this is strictly an arguement between an athiest man and a jewish man.
No christ involved!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
jesus was a jew.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Well said Brian...but check this thread and see how far from the original post it got and how quick it got there...
I think the video is fantastic...someone trying to do something positive in a situation where there is so much of the negative
"Indeed, it's time for kings to step down. We, the people, got this.
Our love will prevail where and when leaders and their fears fail."
People have the power......we just don't embrace it. Ooohhhh, the TV is one. Bye.
I'll give it a shot...
The Question: Why do we hate Iran (and vice versa)?
We basically hate Iran because they took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979, right?
They took over our embassy and held hostages in 1979 because we allowed the former Shah of Iran in New York.
We held the Shah in New York because his pals, Rockerfeller and Kissinger pursuaded President Carter to allow him in for medical treatment.
He was allowed medical treatment in New York because he was ousted by the Islamic Revolution of Ayatohla Khoemeini and other Middle Eastern countries would not offer him refuge.
The Islamic Revolution came about because the oppressive Iranian government lead by the Shah and his oil dealings with the West.
The Iranian government was oppressive to the Iranian people because the Shah was put into power in a military coup orchestrated by the CIA in Operation Ajax that overthrew a democratically elected government.
Operation Ajax was executed because the democratically elected government in Iran, nationalized its oil fields so the Iranian people would share in the wealth of its natural oil resource.
...
I know.. there are other factors in the mix prior to 1979... like Iran saying shit about 'wiping Israel off of the map' and our providing Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons to use on Iranians durng that 8 year stalemate in the 1980s and Ahackeymajinnydaddy-o saying theholocaust never happened and our shooting down an Iranian passenger jet and their mining of the Persian Gulf and on and on... but it basically comes down to this:
We helped to create the shit we are in today because of our belief that the oil in the Iranian desert belongs to the United States and Iran should have known that. We can pretend that we have and had nothing to do with any of this and pretend it is all their fault. But, that's not the truth... is it?
Hail, Hail!!!
The train has had a tendency lately to fall into the Twilight Zone. Who know where this will go next!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
:thumbup:
Yes, it is good to have some knowledge about history.
I agree it is great to have a knowledge of history, and to be as educated as possible about issues in order to form accurate opinions...please dont take this as an attack on anything you have said cos its not...I just think personally that the problem with referring to history in relation to major and complex conflicts, is that each side will always have something else to drag up that will give them justification for hatred and revenge...I know this is overly simplistic...and it comes from a relatively uneducated "simple" person...but can a line be drawn in the sand...can both sides acknowledge they have done countless unspeakable wrongs to each other...is forgivene...probably not...but damn I like that video...showed it to my teenage boys...there was another video link of the same dialog but spoken my a large number of people...brang a tear to my eye.
Thanks for the thread
That was the point I was trying to make. That the U.S. is part of the problem... when we step back and look at the thing from an purely objective viewpoint.
Many Americans will turn a blind eye to our role... our actions... and come up with a simple (albeit, incorrect) assessment that Iran holds all of the blame and is therefore, Evil.
Both the U.S. foriegn policy and Iran have a hand in this mess. I believe we need to own up to our faults as well as hold Iran accountable for their faults... and the iranians have to do the same.
We are all paying for the greed and hatred of our grandfathers. How about we all... Americans and Iranians... reject the Inheritance of their greed and hatred and quit looking for more excuses to kill each other?
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah sorry cosmo...like I said I am a bit simple (but hey, for a 3 year old dog I am doing ok!)...good point, well made
Yeah sorry cosmo...like I said I am a bit simple (but hey, for a 3 year old dog I am doing ok!)...good point, well made[/quote]
...
No apologies. In fact, I was fortifying your message. There are many, many Americans that fail to recognize our shortcomings and pretend that our mistakes never happened. I just wish that they'd take an objective view every once in a while.
And you are a beautiful critter... don't look a day over 2 1/2 years old.
Hail, Hail!!!
There you go again... Let me ask you...
Are you perfect and never make mistakes? Do you blame your mistakes on others?
Of course not. You man up an hold yourself accountable for your decisions and actions, right?
Why shouldn't we... as a nation do the same as you would?
Hail, Hail!!!
You already have a state of your own. It's the state allotted to you by the U.N partition plan, which, when it suits you, you claim to have accepted. But you don't really accept it, as it runs contrary to Zionist ambitions, which is to steal all of the land between the Jordan river and the sea.
Zionism is based on racism and expansionism, and therefore it should be destroyed. And this has nothing to do with destroying 'Israel'.
i can not imagine a scenario where biby would allow this to go unpunished...
Iran hangs "Mossad agent' for scientist killing
http://news.yahoo.com/iran-hangs-mossad ... 39658.html
DUBAI (Reuters) - Iran has hanged a man it said was an agent for Israeli intelligence agency Mossad whom it convicted of killing one of its nuclear scientists in 2010, Iranian state media reported on Tuesday.
Tehran has accused Israel and the United States of assassinating four Iranian scientists since 2010 in order to sabotage its nuclear program which the West suspects is hiding Iran's attempt to develop a nuclear weapons capability.
While Israel has declined to comment on the killings, it regards Iran's nuclear program as an existential threat and has threatened military action against Tehran. Washington has denied any U.S. role.
Twenty-four year old Majid Jamali Fashi was hanged at Tehran's Evin Prison after being sentenced to death in August last year for the murder of Massoud Ali-Mohammadi, Iran's state news agency quoted the central prosecutor's office as saying. It said he had confessed to the crime.
Ali-Mohammadi was killed in January 2010 when a remote-controlled bomb attached to a motorcycle outside his home in Tehran went off.
Tuesday's report said Fashi had confessed to travelling to Tel Aviv to receive training from Mossad before returning to Iran to plot the assassination.
A spokesman for Iran's Atomic Energy Organization said at the time that Ali-Mohammadi, a 50-year-old Tehran University professor, was not involved in its activities.
The most recent attack on an Iranian scientist occurred in January. Mostafa Ahmadi-Roshan - a deputy director of the Natanz uranium enrichment facility - was killed when a magnetic bomb planted on his vehicle detonated.
Israel has a policy of not commenting on the allegations but an unnamed Israeli source previously said the daylight killings provoked panic in surviving colleagues and generate a phenomenon Mossad veterans dub "virtual defection" which hinders Iran's nuclear progress.
Last month, Iranian intelligence officials said they had arrested 15 people they called a "major terror and sabotage network with links to the Zionist regime". The group had plotted to assassinate an Iranian scientist in February, the authorities said.
Iranian officials have also accused Israel of infiltrating neighboring Azerbaijan to organize attacks against the Islamic Republic.
Unsubstantiated reports in the Iranian media earlier this month said Israel has pushed for the transfer Of 1,200 members of the exiled Iranian rebel group Mujahideen Khalq Organization (MKO) from their base in Iraq to Azerbaijan.
Late last year Israel distanced itself from the MKO's efforts to be removed from the U.S. terrorism blacklist, saying it did not consider the group to be "an asset".
Iran denies Western accusations it is seeking to develop a nuclear weapons capability, but major powers are pushing Tehran to become more transparent and cooperative ahead of talks later this month.
Israel says it could attack Iran if it thinks that is the only way to stop it from getting nuclear arms.
British Foreign Secretary William Hague on Monday warned the European Union would impose tougher sanctions on Iran if it failed to take concrete steps to allay international concerns over its nuclear program.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."