To the class of 2012...

gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
edited May 2012 in A Moving Train
this is an op ed from a guy at my local newspaper. he said if he were giving a commencement speech to the class of 2012 this is what he would say. in his columns he is all over the political spectrum. sometimes he comes off as a liberal while others he comes off as a staunch conservative. i agree with him maybe 70% of the time. this is one of the times i happen to agree with him. there is not a lot to discuss that we have not already debated to death on here, but i thought i would share anyway..

Graduates, meet Oligarchy, your new overlord

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/colu ... e5cf3.html

Good morning, graduates.

As your commencement speaker, it is my task to give you advice as you start your postschool journey.

So here goes: If you win the lottery, take your winnings in a lump sum.

Beyond that, I have no advice. You are headed to a place I have never been.

You are headed into an oligarchy.

All of us are.

Some of you know what an oligarchy is. Don't pat yourselves on the back. You are the ones in the most trouble. You are probably history majors. What are you going to do with your history degree? Sit around the campfire and swap stories with English majors?

Those of you with practical degrees have probably never heard of an oligarchy. Let me define it for you. It is a society in which power and wealth belong to a privileged few, but its most telling feature is the lack of a large and robust middle class.

The middle-class thing is what's most important. A person could argue that power and wealth are always concentrated among a privileged few. What was it George Orwell said in "Animal Farm" — all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others?

The America in which I grew up was distinguished by a massive and powerful middle class. The middle class drove the country.

That has changed. The middle class is shrinking. People fall out of it every day.

I won't bother you with theories about why this is happening. I suspect much of it has to do with globalization and the transfer of manufacturing jobs to lower-cost countries.

Some of you will be fortunate and will become functionaries in the oligarchy. Maybe you will be accountants or engineers. But eventually — and probably sooner rather than later — you will become obsolete and will fall out of the middle class.

Many of you, particularly those of you with liberal arts degrees, will head directly into the growing underclass.

Let me try to prepare you for that.

The first thing that will surprise you is the resentment afoot in the country. This resentment is not directed at the wealthy — They're job creators! They're overtaxed! — but at you. Yes, we're resentful of the poor.

I mention that people are falling out of the middle class. A man I know is one of them. He is in his late 50s. He was laid off from a managerial job. At first, he thought that somebody with his experience would be hired rather quickly. But that was not the case. He soon felt like an Untouchable.

He had too much experience. His work history was too rich. He would want too much. Plus, of course, he was of the age at which health becomes a concern. What employer would want to take that on?

When the Occupy people set up a camp at Kiener Plaza, he went down to take a look. He was too old for them! Actually, the Occupy people were mostly the age of his kids. What if one of his kids' friends saw him? Also, the Occupy people were too scruffy for him.

A short time later, he heard that some union people were joining with Occupy people to march to the Martin Luther King Bridge. He has never been a union guy, but he figured it would be an older, less scruffy crowd. He went.

He was walking on the edge of the marchers when a man in a passing car slowed down and shouted, "Get a job!"

My friend was puzzled. Did the driver think he didn't want a job? And why the anger? It made no sense.

I would say the same thing about many of the current arguments over taxes. The rich have always done well. Always. They did well long before the tax cuts of 2001. But now people worry about the rich. Even with their reduced tax rates, they're paying too much. What about the people who aren't paying any income tax at all? That's who we should go after!

You know, the elderly poor. Or struggling families with children.

Who can argue that with a straight face?

Those of you unfortunate enough to have studied history — and don't expect us to feel sorry for you — know that many of the countries to our south have had a long and sad history of oligarchies.

Are there any lessons to take from their stories?

Trust no one. That would be the lesson I'd take. The government, the church, the press, the courts. All the institutions that were supposed to look out for the people betrayed them.

Don't think it can't happen here. It has already started. The signs are everywhere. These seismic shifts have a terrible momentum, and once they start, I don't know if they can be reversed.

So good luck, Class of 2012. Good luck to all of us.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    :roll:

    I would boo him off the stage. His points are OK at times, but then they go off into never-never land.

    What I got out of this was : At the most joyous time in people's young lives:

    Preach defeatism
    Preach class warfare
    Preach career warfare
    Preach paranoia

    and summarizing the above..

    Preach deflection

    At the end of the day, I understand the frustration behind a movement like OWS, yet I also understand the frustration of the guy shouting "get a job". Both can and should be frustrated and both have a point. If people put as much effort into moving to "find" a job, they "probably" wouldn't be at a OWS rally. Yet, I understand when some are laid off, lack of mobility due to family and houses and the need to "blame" someone when the reality it's hard to pin-point who's really to "blame". OWS symbolizes that, but those in OWS that blame the 1% are off. They really are blaming faceless entities. This guy is echoing that aspect. The reality is the real faceless entities "that should be" blamed are sitting behind closed doors laughing that the outrage directed at the wrong people.

    That's why this deflection doesn't and won't ever work.

    If you're an undergrad, if you want a job when you complete your degree, go into a field where there are jobs. Why would anyone study a field that they think they have a poor chance of landing a job, then afterwards come out of school and complain that they can't find a job? -Now it's the other majors faults? I mean, I understand and respect all majors... but, use common sense.

    If you're jobless, try your best to find a job. Sometimes you may need to move. Sometimes you may need to work two jobs. Sometimes you may need to take a pay cut. If you can't and you're frustrated, I understand why. You're not alone in your frustration and sure, you have a right to protest. My only point - Just be sure when you're protesting you're positive that the fraction your protesting against... is TO BLAME.

    Deflection seems to be the way the world is run these days. And it's such a childish and lazy way to be. If you think about it, it really explains a lot of our problems. After all, our problems are a reflection on US.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,156
    I agree that liberal arts degrees are not a wise investment these days, especially with the cost of tuition. It's too bad because that is how some people are geared, but spending $20K - $50K ... a year ... for getting a degree in music or history doesn't make sense ... unless your parents are part of the evil 1% and paying for everything.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    one question to the republican controlled congress....where are the jobs?? they said they would fix it, but instead they started to focus on social issues like abortion and ultrasounds. if they hadn't detoured maybe a jobs bill would have passed. then again, it wouldn't have because they are in stall mode now trying to wait it out until november to blame obama for their own refusal to pass anything at all. this is what the class of 2012 is walking into. i am glad i have been out of grad school for 12 years...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    one question to the republican controlled congress....where are the jobs?? they said they would fix it, but instead they started to focus on social issues like abortion and ultrasounds. if they hadn't detoured maybe a jobs bill would have passed. then again, it wouldn't have because they are in stall mode now trying to wait it out until november to blame obama for their own refusal to pass anything at all. this is what the class of 2012 is walking into. i am glad i have been out of grad school for 12 years...


    I am sure if there was an easy switch to flip and a jobs bill that would put millions to work was easy to do they would do it...the problem is, things like jobs bills don't do shit, especially when you are already broke.

    that was an interesting read though gimmie...thanks for that...I truly feel like our higher education institutions are doing a disservice to people by not having better real job market counselors helping to educate people on job prospects after college...

    They keep growing, keep letting more and more people pay them thousands and thousands of dollars while not telling them what they are doing is going to be a bad idea. If anything was predatory lending...it is the student loan scam
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • maj4emaj4e Posts: 605
    What's funny is I just saw an article on yahoo business the other day that was preaching the value of liberal arts. I have liberal arts and engineering degrees and I feel like I got more out of the BA even though I'm a systems engineer. It gives a better big picture view of the significance of things in my personal opinion.
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    maj4e wrote:
    What's funny is I just saw an article on yahoo business the other day that was preaching the value of liberal arts. I have liberal arts and engineering degrees and I feel like I got more out of the BA even though I'm a systems engineer. It gives a better big picture view of the significance of things in my personal opinion.


    it is great to get a well rounded education absolutely...but to let kids get a philosophy degree without telling them it may be best to have a back up plan is irresponsible.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    one question to the republican controlled congress....where are the jobs?? they said they would fix it, but instead they started to focus on social issues like abortion and ultrasounds. if they hadn't detoured maybe a jobs bill would have passed. then again, it wouldn't have because they are in stall mode now trying to wait it out until november to blame obama for their own refusal to pass anything at all. this is what the class of 2012 is walking into. i am glad i have been out of grad school for 12 years...


    I wasn't aware that congress had the power to control job growth. I was aware that they have the power to create roadblocks to job growth, but "create" jobs. Ugh...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo0h_AR_ ... r_embedded
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

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  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    maj4e wrote:
    What's funny is I just saw an article on yahoo business the other day that was preaching the value of liberal arts. I have liberal arts and engineering degrees and I feel like I got more out of the BA even though I'm a systems engineer. It gives a better big picture view of the significance of things in my personal opinion.


    it is great to get a well rounded education absolutely...but to let kids get a philosophy degree without telling them it may be best to have a back up plan is irresponsible.


    Yup. The kid just needs to account for jobs and whatnot when thinking about what they want to do. Liberal arts can be great educationally. I mean, liberal arts schools could be arguably better schools, so that would effect it too. If you want a job... it's probably a function of:

    -Jobs available in your major
    -The school you went to
    -Your GPA
    -Your contacts
    -Your personality

    ...if a kid thinks the major doesn't matter at all for job prospects... they should go back to school cause they clearly don't know what they are talking about.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    inlet13 wrote:
    If you're jobless, try your best to find a job. Sometimes you may need to move. Sometimes you may need to work two jobs. Sometimes you may need to take a pay cut. If you can't and you're frustrated, I understand why. You're not alone in your frustration and sure, you have a right to protest. My only point - Just be sure when you're protesting you're positive that the fraction your protesting against... is TO BLAME.

    Deflection seems to be the way the world is run these days. And it's such a childish and lazy way to be. If you think about it, it really explains a lot of our problems. After all, our problems are a reflection on US.
    Excellent post, inlet - especially the last part.

    Of course it's not so simple as to say that deflection is the root but to my eyes, it certainly seems to be the mindset of many these days.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,615
    Ladies and Gentlemen of the class of '97.
    Wear sunscreen.
    If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it.
    The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience...
  • Most of the posts in this thread prove the first guy right.

    5% of the country has 80% of the money and pays only 50% of the taxes.

    You can go to jail for smoking a joint, but knowingly misleading tens of thousands of people into giving you their money so you can screw them over, take their money and their house... that gets you a 20 million dollars and a stern talking to from Bill Maher.

    And the mega rich spend all their energy having us attack each other over religion and marriage and health care and education. So we'll never band together and fight back.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,428
    Most of the posts in this thread prove the first guy right.

    5% of the country has 80% of the money and pays only 50% of the taxes.

    You can go to jail for smoking a joint, but knowingly misleading tens of thousands of people into giving you their money so you can screw them over, take their money and their house... that gets you a 20 million dollars and a stern talking to from Bill Maher.

    "Steal a little and they put you in jail/
    steal a lot and they make you king."
    -Bob Dylan
    And the mega rich spend all their energy having us attack each other over religion and marriage and health care and education. So we'll never band together and fight back.

    I know there's a good quote to go with this as well but I can't come up with it right now. Probably something Abbie Hoffman said.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • by the way as far as "liberal arts" degrees go...

    I come from a family of university professors and classical musicians and they all did just fine for themselves.

    I have a film degree and I make more than them combined. (not to brag, but hey... I don't get the do that much.)

    If you work hard, are passionate about what you do and always stay focused on what you SHOULD be doing..

    Um...

    Oh... geez, I better get back to work....

    as you were.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,428
    If you want to be a bookseller, a liberal arts degree is very useful. It's a also an excellent degree to have if you want to teach K through 8. I've done all of the above so for someone like myself, a liberal arts degree is perfect. I know a little about a lot of things and, to be fair to myself, a good deal about a few things. So my liberal arts degree has served me well. It's also more interesting to me than just studying one thing. I've known and respected many specialists but for me the phrase Robert Heinlein coined- “specialization is for ants”- fits perfectly.

    p.s. That's no slam on ants either. Look what E.O. Wilson has done with the study of ants!
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    First, I have a liberal arts degree as well - the supposedly useless history degree ;) However, I agree with brianlux - I know a little about a lot and alot about a few things which is ok with me. I could be making alot more money, as I left the financial services industr,y but my personality is best suited to teaching rather than sales. So to me there is great value in liberal arts ed.

    Second, as said social studies teacher.....I believe that a problem with this article focuses on job sectors. The author claims the destruction of the middle class because of globalization and the loss of manufacturing jobs. When I graduated from high school, manufacturing jobs were the expectation for most boys I graduated with and they knew they could make good money and support their families with no more than a high school education. The growing pains that we are experiencing right now come from the fact that when the class of 2012 graduates they have to have some level of job training, vocational/technical education (and BTW when did THAT become a bad education to have?) or college education. i also do not believe that these kids will work at the same place their entire careers OR even possibly have the same JOB their entire lives. As a teacher who still has 17 years until retirement, I think it is a distinct possibility that my services will be somewhat limited by the end of my career because of technology. If the kids cans learn the same material, in half the time, on the computer, where is the incentive to keep me? It is more efficient and cheaper to use modules on the computer. I can earn my ED.S degree completely online AND our students can take classes they don't like in the summer, for a fee, so they can save room in their schedule for the things they want.

    Third, manufacturing jobs are secondary sector jobs and the US and other western nations are post-industrial and we are moving to tertiary sector jobs. You need to be aware of the future job trends so you can plan your career accordingly. Certainly, health care will be a great career choice for the foreseeable future because the baby boomers are getting older and will need more medical care. Colleges need to help with job/major choices and secondary schools need to be completely revamped to address the new needs of the 21st century. Personally, I can't believe that businesses haven't pushed harder to overhaul secondary education to better fit the needs of their business endeavors. :fp:

    Lastly, I followed the advice of the PJ and vino thread so if this is somewhat rambling or a little incoherent I blame the Pinot :oops:
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,428
    riotgrl wrote:

    Lastly, I followed the advice of the PJ and vino thread so if this is somewhat rambling or a little incoherent I blame the Pinot :oops:

    In other words, it's time to hit The Lounge Car? :D

    riotgrl, I hope you're wrong about teachers becoming obsolete. I had similar concerns when I was teaching, but unless we human truly do become machines ourselves I think there will always be a desire to have the one-on-one mentoring of human to human just as I think that no matter how popular e-readers become there will always be the desire to read real books... I HOPE!!
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • maj4emaj4e Posts: 605
    inlet13 wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    maj4e wrote:
    What's funny is I just saw an article on yahoo business the other day that was preaching the value of liberal arts. I have liberal arts and engineering degrees and I feel like I got more out of the BA even though I'm a systems engineer. It gives a better big picture view of the significance of things in my personal opinion.


    it is great to get a well rounded education absolutely...but to let kids get a philosophy degree without telling them it may be best to have a back up plan is irresponsible.


    Yup. The kid just needs to account for jobs and whatnot when thinking about what they want to do. Liberal arts can be great educationally. I mean, liberal arts schools could be arguably better schools, so that would effect it too. If you want a job... it's probably a function of:

    -Jobs available in your major
    -The school you went to
    -Your GPA
    -Your contacts
    -Your personality

    ...if a kid thinks the major doesn't matter at all for job prospects... they should go back to school cause they clearly don't know what they are talking about.

    All the above is true. I'd suggest to anyone in liberal arts to use some of their electives on maybe tech or some business classes. Skills are a must but the worldview of liberal arts just can't be beat.
  • One of the things that really bugs me about this thread is the assumption that all we need is to all be the same.

    We're all fans of Pearl Jam who, I should point out, are all artists. While I'm sure that there's certainly some business savy in there somewhere, artists and creative types make the world a better place. It's not just the computer geek who's studied the most in school who helped design the iPhone or wrote the code for Angry Birds. We need creative types to move our culture along.

    One of the reasons that I think American culture has become so dull is that we've removed a lot of the "art" from our world. Music is now less about good singers and perfumers and song writers, it's about who can be chosen as the highest-selling act on a TV Karaoke Show.

    While on shows like American Idol they do a lot of classic songs by artists like Springsteen and Joni Mitchell and Van Halen... you think that Springsteen, Joni Mitchell or David Lee Roth could win American Idol?

    The British jerk on that show even said that Aretha Franklin couldn't win American Idol. I guess he gets points for being honest but it was pretty clear that Americans now want their pop stars to be supermodels... the voices can be dubbed or fixed in the studio, the songs written by committee, the album cover air-brushed and digitally altered to make the boobs bigger and the waists smaller.

    America has been bought and paid for by billionaires who care nothing about culture and music and art and writing or stories... just money...

    IT's very sad.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,428
    One of the things that really bugs me about this thread is the assumption that all we need is to all be the same.

    We're all fans of Pearl Jam who, I should point out, are all artists. While I'm sure that there's certainly some business savy in there somewhere, artists and creative types make the world a better place. It's not just the computer geek who's studied the most in school who helped design the iPhone or wrote the code for Angry Birds. We need creative types to move our culture along.

    One of the reasons that I think American culture has become so dull is that we've removed a lot of the "art" from our world. Music is now less about good singers and perfumers and song writers, it's about who can be chosen as the highest-selling act on a TV Karaoke Show.

    While on shows like American Idol they do a lot of classic songs by artists like Springsteen and Joni Mitchell and Van Halen... you think that Springsteen, Joni Mitchell or David Lee Roth could win American Idol?

    The British jerk on that show even said that Aretha Franklin couldn't win American Idol. I guess he gets points for being honest but it was pretty clear that Americans now want their pop stars to be supermodels... the voices can be dubbed or fixed in the studio, the songs written by committee, the album cover air-brushed and digitally altered to make the boobs bigger and the waists smaller.

    America has been bought and paid for by billionaires who care nothing about culture and music and art and writing or stories... just money...

    IT's very sad.

    I've often said left-brains are running the world and squeezing out right-brains. People look at me like I'm a bit looney when I say this. And the funny thing is, more often then not people on the right are left brained and people on the left are right brained.

    I know, HUGE generalization... but at least somewhat true?
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    My uncle is a Vice President of a big multinational in the financial sector and he says that usually the main things they look at when hiring is A) the Quality of the degree and B) the GPA. this is because regardless of if you have done a business course they are going to be training you in what they do so that doesn't matter, what matters is that your able to show them you can learn, and think critical.

    Critical thinking is probably the most important skill there is. and thats why i think liberal arts majors are actually really strong majors to have
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,593
    here is what i'd say to the class of 2012 (and i'm sure some of you will rip me for this :roll: )

    despite what you were told in little league, not everyone gets a trophy just for participating. that's not how it works in adult-land. find yourself a job, any job and don't worry about what you make today, get there early, do what your boss wants you to do no matter how menial, work extra if need be, and learn as much as you can. make yourself invaluable and irreplaceable. sucking it up when you are 22-30 years old will give you more freedom at 35 and 40. oh and this notion that this is the scariest and worst time in history is bullshit. yes jobs are hard to come by, but you haven't been drafted, no one has nuclear weapons aimed at our major cities, and despite the shitty economy you and your famlies aren't in soup lines. there are no signs in store windows saying your ethnic group need not apply. the food shelves in our supermarkets are still refilled every night. really want to know how bad others have had it in their lives, take out your $100 dollar a month phones, google the depression, ellis island, world world II and then shut your mouths. there are millions worse off in the world than you are living with mommy and daddy. and those millions aren't looking for bottle service on friday nights hald-dressed in $200 dollar outfits. the american dream is not kim kardashian and it's not so bad watching tv on 52-inch high definitition tv with 400 channels. step back and gain some perspective and realize you are stil pretty damn lucky. most of you are as healthly and as good looking as you will ever be and you have more freedom and less pressures than you will have later in life. so look around, enjoy the views, smile, and stop the whining and do something about it.
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    pjhawks wrote:
    here is what i'd say to the class of 2012 (and i'm sure some of you will rip me for this :roll: )

    despite what you were told in little league, not everyone gets a trophy just for participating. that's not how it works in adult-land. find yourself a job, any job and don't worry about what you make today, get there early, do what your boss wants you to do no matter how menial, work extra if need be, and learn as much as you can. make yourself invaluable and irreplaceable. sucking it up when you are 22-30 years old will give you more freedom at 35 and 40. oh and this notion that this is the scariest and worst time in history is bullshit. yes jobs are hard to come by, but you haven't been drafted, no one has nuclear weapons aimed at our major cities, and despite the shitty economy you and your famlies aren't in soup lines. there are no signs in store windows saying your ethnic group need not apply. the food shelves in our supermarkets are still refilled every night. really want to know how bad others have had it in their lives, take out your $100 dollar a month phones, google the depression, ellis island, world world II and then shut your mouths. there are millions worse off in the world than you are living with mommy and daddy. and those millions aren't looking for bottle service on friday nights hald-dressed in $200 dollar outfits. the american dream is not kim kardashian and it's not so bad watching tv on 52-inch high definitition tv with 400 channels. step back and gain some perspective and realize you are stil pretty damn lucky. most of you are as healthly and as good looking as you will ever be and you have more freedom and less pressures than you will have later in life. so look around, enjoy the views, smile, and stop the whining and do something about it.
    Rip you for that?

    No way, man. :clap:
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Jason P wrote:
    I agree that liberal arts degrees are not a wise investment these days, especially with the cost of tuition. It's too bad because that is how some people are geared, but spending $20K - $50K ... a year ... for getting a degree in music or history doesn't make sense ... unless your parents are part of the evil 1% and paying for everything.

    I'll take it a step further. I'm not sure that college is "worth it" for most degrees these days. There are exceptions, but I couldn't in good faith recommend that people even bother with it nowadays.

    And if what I'm saying here isn't yet true, then it will be very soon with tuition costs continually rising at a MUCH, MUCH faster rate than the economy is.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    One of the things that really bugs me about this thread is the assumption that all we need is to all be the same.

    We're all fans of Pearl Jam who, I should point out, are all artists. While I'm sure that there's certainly some business savy in there somewhere, artists and creative types make the world a better place. It's not just the computer geek who's studied the most in school who helped design the iPhone or wrote the code for Angry Birds. We need creative types to move our culture along.

    One of the reasons that I think American culture has become so dull is that we've removed a lot of the "art" from our world. Music is now less about good singers and perfumers and song writers, it's about who can be chosen as the highest-selling act on a TV Karaoke Show.

    While on shows like American Idol they do a lot of classic songs by artists like Springsteen and Joni Mitchell and Van Halen... you think that Springsteen, Joni Mitchell or David Lee Roth could win American Idol?

    The British jerk on that show even said that Aretha Franklin couldn't win American Idol. I guess he gets points for being honest but it was pretty clear that Americans now want their pop stars to be supermodels... the voices can be dubbed or fixed in the studio, the songs written by committee, the album cover air-brushed and digitally altered to make the boobs bigger and the waists smaller.

    America has been bought and paid for by billionaires who care nothing about culture and music and art and writing or stories... just money...

    IT's very sad.

    I agree with most of this except the insinuation that we've been boughht and paid for by billionaires. It's still the public that has the ability and right to CHOOSE whether to participate in the current forms of entertainment. Most of them choose to participate and that's how we got here.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    riotgrl wrote:
    First, I have a liberal arts degree as well - the supposedly useless history degree ;) However, I agree with brianlux - I know a little about a lot and alot about a few things which is ok with me. I could be making alot more money, as I left the financial services industr,y but my personality is best suited to teaching rather than sales. So to me there is great value in liberal arts ed.

    The world is changing very rapidly. You really can get by without knowing a little about a lot these days. Our access to info is light years ahead of where it was just 10 years ago. Think about it, people just started really using google around 2000.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • inlet13inlet13 Posts: 1,979
    One of the things that really bugs me about this thread is the assumption that all we need is to all be the same.

    We're all fans of Pearl Jam who, I should point out, are all artists. While I'm sure that there's certainly some business savy in there somewhere, artists and creative types make the world a better place. It's not just the computer geek who's studied the most in school who helped design the iPhone or wrote the code for Angry Birds. We need creative types to move our culture along.

    One of the reasons that I think American culture has become so dull is that we've removed a lot of the "art" from our world. Music is now less about good singers and perfumers and song writers, it's about who can be chosen as the highest-selling act on a TV Karaoke Show.

    While on shows like American Idol they do a lot of classic songs by artists like Springsteen and Joni Mitchell and Van Halen... you think that Springsteen, Joni Mitchell or David Lee Roth could win American Idol?

    The British jerk on that show even said that Aretha Franklin couldn't win American Idol. I guess he gets points for being honest but it was pretty clear that Americans now want their pop stars to be supermodels... the voices can be dubbed or fixed in the studio, the songs written by committee, the album cover air-brushed and digitally altered to make the boobs bigger and the waists smaller.

    America has been bought and paid for by billionaires who care nothing about culture and music and art and writing or stories... just money...

    IT's very sad.

    Agree with a lot in this post. But, I disagree it's billionaires fault. It's our fault. We (or a lot of us) watch this shit. We don't buy the good shit in mass. That's the problem.

    I'll admit, I just watched "The Voice" tonight. Truth is, the artists are so talented, but I found it pretty sad. Some girl on their sang Bon Iver. She did a great job, very good job and I can tell she wants to be that sort of artist. Next thing I know, they go to a commercial break, and do some horrible pop song after with her and three other artists dancing around like it was Disney on Ice. She was obviously forced into that. But, regardless, how am I supposed to "buy" her credibility after seeing that shit? THAT... is what's wrong in my opinion.

    These shows are a great concept, but artists can't be artists, they are forced into doing dance routines and other nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with singing. And the reality is, as much as we want to blame it on TV execs, it's the market that wants it. I know babyboomers and teeny boppers who love that nonsense. That's the problem. The demand is the problem.

    It sucks, but it's not billionaires faults... it's the every day citizen who turns it on. I still have no idea how the Nirvana types ever made it so big.
    Here's a new demo called "in the fire":

    <object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt; <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
  • inlet13 wrote:
    I'll admit, I just watched "The Voice" tonight.

    Oh.

    Wow.

    Funny, I thought you were straight. :fp:
  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    know1 wrote:
    riotgrl wrote:
    First, I have a liberal arts degree as well - the supposedly useless history degree ;) However, I agree with brianlux - I know a little about a lot and alot about a few things which is ok with me. I could be making alot more money, as I left the financial services industr,y but my personality is best suited to teaching rather than sales. So to me there is great value in liberal arts ed.

    The world is changing very rapidly. You really can get by without knowing a little about a lot these days. Our access to info is light years ahead of where it was just 10 years ago. Think about it, people just started really using google around 2000.


    I definitely think that as the world continues to change so rapidly that we will be forced to change job paths in our lifetimes, not because we want to but because we have to. The days of working the same job at the same company are over for most Americans. Not that it's a bad thing but it will involve us being far more flexible and be willing and able to get new skills and new education.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    inlet13 wrote:


    Yup. The kid just needs to account for jobs and whatnot when thinking about what they want to do. Liberal arts can be great educationally. I mean, liberal arts schools could be arguably better schools, so that would effect it too. If you want a job... it's probably a function of:

    -Jobs available in your major
    -The school you went to
    -Your GPA
    -Your contacts
    -Your personality

    ...if a kid thinks the major doesn't matter at all for job prospects... they should go back to school cause they clearly don't know what they are talking about.

    It depends on where you are. I'm in Ottawa (Canada's capital) so a Political Science/Public Administration degree is FANTASTIC as a degree. In other cities, not so much.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
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