Is Free Speech dead??

Hugh Freaking Dillon

So the guy can only have an opinion if it's favourable to the US government? Suspended without pay for 5 games. What a fucking joke.


from: http://news.yahoo.com/miami-marlins-manager-ozzie-guillen-apologizes-love-castro-170553870--abc-news-topstories.html

Controversial Miami Marlins manager Ozzie Guillen apologized today for remarks to Time magazine in which he seemed to praise Cuban leader Fidel Castro, calling his comments "stupid and naive."

"I love Fidel Castro." Time reported Guillen as saying in the article. "I respect Fidel Castro, you know why? A lot of people have wanted to kill Fidel Castro for the last 60 years, but that motherf****r is still here."

Guillen attempted to clarify his remarks in the news conference today, saying he was misquoted because of a language barrier. "What I meant in Spanish, I was talking in Spanish, was that I cannot believe somebody who hurt so many people over the years is still alive," he said today.

Guillen apologized profusely throughout the conference, which was conducted in a mixture of English and Spanish. "I apologize to the people here to everyone who's looking at me," he said. "I will do everything to make it better. … I know it's going to be a bumpy ride."

The Marlins manager, 48, went on to say that he wanted to move forward from the comments, which he called "the biggest mistake of my life."


"I am willing to do everything in my power, the Marlins power, to help the Cuban community the Latino community, like I always do," said Guillen, a former Major League shortstop from Venezuela who played for four teams in a 15-year career.

Guillen, who has been suspended for five games without pay by the Marlins for the incident, said he respects the decision, adding that money "is the last thing I'm thinking about right now."

As for the team, it released a statement today, saying, "The Marlins acknowledge the seriousness of the comments attributed to Guillen. The pain and suffering caused by Fidel Castro cannot be minimized, especially in a community filled with victims of the dictatorship."

The outspoken manager is no stranger to controversy, having raised the ire of players, coaches, gay rights activists, illegal immigration opponents and Venezuelans in the past. Throughout his tenure as manager, he has been criticized for, among other things:

• Using a gay slur while referring to a local sports columnist. Guillen later apologized to the gay community, but not the columnist.

• Praising Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez and appearing on his radio show in 2005.

• Speaking out against Arizona's strict illegal immigration law in 2010. He was quoted as saying that "this country can't survive without [immigrants]. There are a lot of people from this country who are lazy. A lot of people in this country want to be on the computer and send emails to people. We do the hard work."

But praising Fidel Castro in the city of Miami, which has a large Cuban-American population, seems even to Guillen to have gone a step too far. "I am a sport man and a sport man should not be involved in politics," he said at the news conference today. "I have to let the Cuban community know that I'm really sorry. I have to apologize because I did the wrong thing."

peacefrompaul

The Marlins should have just ignored it. Just like people should ignore Rush Limbaugh instead of calling to have him removed for what he said. That would also be violating freedom of speech.

"Is free speech dead?" Depends on the situation and place. Depends who you are and who you represent.

brianlux

Lee Iacocca said some complimentary things about Castro as well (in what I found to be a surprisingly good book, Where Have All the Leaders Gone, Scribner, 2007). Are they going to tell Iacocca what to say as well? I'm certainly not supporting Guillen's alleged slur against gays but if he wants to say "I love Fidel Castro", why not?

chiquimonkey

brianlux wrote:

but if he wants to say "I love Fidel Castro", why not?

Because Fidel Castro is a murderer, guilty of killing some of my own family members, along with thousands of others. I still have relatives there suffering because of that fucking monster.

He has the right to say whatever he wants, but if you're gonna say something that goddamn stupid, in Little Havana no less...well, he also is exercising his right to be a goddamn insensitive, ignorant idiot and he deserves whatever comes to him.

Byrnzie

chiquimonkey wrote:

Because Fidel Castro is a murderer

Would you prefer that the U.S backed, mafia-affiliated, puppet dictator Batista was still in power?

CH156378

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRqcTZu3iIQ

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

So the guy can only have an opinion if it's favourable to the US government? Suspended without pay for 5 games. What a fucking joke.


from: http://news.yahoo.com/miami-marlins-manager-ozzie-guillen-apologizes-love-castro-170553870--abc-news-topstories.html

Controversial Miami Marlins manager Ozzie Guillen apologized today for remarks to Time magazine in which he seemed to praise Cuban leader Fidel Castro, calling his comments "stupid and naive."

"I love Fidel Castro." Time reported Guillen as saying in the article. "I respect Fidel Castro, you know why? A lot of people have wanted to kill Fidel Castro for the last 60 years, but that motherf****r is still here."

Guillen attempted to clarify his remarks in the news conference today, saying he was misquoted because of a language barrier. "What I meant in Spanish, I was talking in Spanish, was that I cannot believe somebody who hurt so many people over the years is still alive," he said today.

Guillen apologized profusely throughout the conference, which was conducted in a mixture of English and Spanish. "I apologize to the people here to everyone who's looking at me," he said. "I will do everything to make it better. … I know it's going to be a bumpy ride."

The Marlins manager, 48, went on to say that he wanted to move forward from the comments, which he called "the biggest mistake of my life."


"I am willing to do everything in my power, the Marlins power, to help the Cuban community the Latino community, like I always do," said Guillen, a former Major League shortstop from Venezuela who played for four teams in a 15-year career.

Guillen, who has been suspended for five games without pay by the Marlins for the incident, said he respects the decision, adding that money "is the last thing I'm thinking about right now."

As for the team, it released a statement today, saying, "The Marlins acknowledge the seriousness of the comments attributed to Guillen. The pain and suffering caused by Fidel Castro cannot be minimized, especially in a community filled with victims of the dictatorship."

The outspoken manager is no stranger to controversy, having raised the ire of players, coaches, gay rights activists, illegal immigration opponents and Venezuelans in the past. Throughout his tenure as manager, he has been criticized for, among other things:

• Using a gay slur while referring to a local sports columnist. Guillen later apologized to the gay community, but not the columnist.

• Praising Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez and appearing on his radio show in 2005.

• Speaking out against Arizona's strict illegal immigration law in 2010. He was quoted as saying that "this country can't survive without [immigrants]. There are a lot of people from this country who are lazy. A lot of people in this country want to be on the computer and send emails to people. We do the hard work."

But praising Fidel Castro in the city of Miami, which has a large Cuban-American population, seems even to Guillen to have gone a step too far. "I am a sport man and a sport man should not be involved in politics," he said at the news conference today. "I have to let the Cuban community know that I'm really sorry. I have to apologize because I did the wrong thing."

is freedom of speach dead ? it must be...for a Cuban to be a citizen of the US all they have to do is step onto American soil right ? so really American rights and laws should be the rule here, leave Cuban laws in Cuba we still have Free speach here.

Godfather.

P.S. I love Albert Anastasia

Jason P

I don't think this has anything to do with free speech. He works for a private employer and must conduct himself properly as he represents the organization to a very high degree.

I don't take any offense to what he said, but when 70% of your paying customers do, you have to really use your noggin and good judgement.

(that said, Miami should have known what they were getting when they hired this goofball. makes me wonder how hard it is to manage a ball team.)

mikepegg44

why is it impossible to respect someone you disagree with, or even hate? isn't that what we are lacking all over public discourse? He said he respects him because for however many years people have been trying to kill the man and he is still there...still in power...in the face of all that...

This is what happens when we can no longer make a distinction between respecting something about a person, some personality trait or some behavior. It is the same as when someone who is pro-choice is called pro-abortion.

I love Ozzie...I don't know if he has ever had a thought he didn't express, most of the time it is very poorly, but you always know where he stands and I respect him for that...(probably shouldn't have said that because that means I love and agree with everything he has ever said and done)

cincybearcat

peacefrompaul wrote:

That would also be violating freedom of speech.

No it wouldn't. Do you know what freedom of speech means?

It was a stupid thing to say when your customers disagree with you on that level. The Marlins were forced to do something. If this effects the Marlins standing in the community and hurts their "business" then they have every right to fire the guy if they choose.

Having said that, and knowing a bit about him, I really think it was more benign a comment then people are thinking. I really think it was using slang "I love that guy" to just mean, "Man, look at this guy who has all these people hating him and yet he stays in power, its amazing", etc.

But this is not a freedom of speech issue.

g under p

Jason P wrote:

I don't think this has anything to do with free speech. He works for a private employer and must conduct himself properly as he represents the organization to a very high degree.

I don't take any offense to what he said, but when 70% of your paying customers do, you have to really use your noggin and good judgement.

(that said, Miami should have known what they were getting when they hired this goofball. makes me wonder how hard it is to manage a ball team.)

I agree this has nothing to do with free speech. He spoke freely, works for a high profile private employer the Miami Marlins in Little Havana FL. The things you say have consequences in this high profile job as manager of the team. So saying something politically insensitive like this WILL bring detractors and rightfully so in this part of South Florida. If you don't think so think again, some of the road signs here in Miami are in Spanish and this community is large and dominate and will voice their opposition to what Ozzie had to say. They are going to give him hell and many still want him fired.

I don't think he should be fired and i don't know what good a 5 game suspension will do but it's probably done by management to ease tensions at the moment. However he will and should be on a short rope for what he said and yes i think he will say something political in the future possibly to his detriment. Odd thing if he takes this team to the playoffs or to a championship most of this controversy will be push aside. Free speech is alive and well it's just that there's consequences for those words in high profile jobs and to the sector of society it affects it happens all the time.

peace

chiquimonkey

Byrnzie wrote:

chiquimonkey wrote:

Because Fidel Castro is a murderer

Would you prefer that the U.S backed, mafia-affiliated, puppet dictator Batista was still in power?

Growing up hearing the horror stories of what Castro did to my family, and what they're still going through? YES.

Just adding a personal perspective to this, since it's easy for folks here to not understand just how awful Castro is. Sadly, most people don't. Only reason I chimed in on this, I usually avoid this forum like the plague for consideration of my own blood pressure.

keeponrockin

mikepegg44 wrote:

why is it impossible to respect someone you disagree with, or even hate? isn't that what we are lacking all over public discourse? He said he respects him because for however many years people have been trying to kill the man and he is still there...still in power...in the face of all that...

This is what happens when we can no longer make a distinction between respecting something about a person, some personality trait or some behavior. It is the same as when someone who is pro-choice is called pro-abortion.

I love Ozzie...I don't know if he has ever had a thought he didn't express, most of the time it is very poorly, but you always know where he stands and I respect him for that...(probably shouldn't have said that because that means I love and agree with everything he has ever said and done)

Ozzie is one of the few entertaining managers left in the sport.

Monster Rain

This isn't an issue of free speech in terms of the Constitution but it is a free speech issue in another sense. What Guillen said was obviously dumb considering where he is now employed and I can understand why the team felt like it needed to do something, BUT I don't understand what the hell happened in this country that made everyone think that they should actively fight for the firing of anyone with an opinion they don't like. There's a good bit of irony in calling for the firing of someone because he said something mildly complimentary about a dictator. "You sort of complimented an oppressive regime?!? We can't have that kind of speech around here, you must be punished!" One of these days some radio station, TV network, etc. will understand that the boycots over "offensive speech" will fade away eventually and nothing bad will happen to them in the end if they stand behind their employee who said the latest "most horrible thing ever said." The man gave multiple sincere apologies and there are still people who won't accept it. You don't have to like the guy, but why demand that he lose his job over words you know he didn't mean to sound the way they came out?

mikepegg44

keeponrockin wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

why is it impossible to respect someone you disagree with, or even hate? isn't that what we are lacking all over public discourse? He said he respects him because for however many years people have been trying to kill the man and he is still there...still in power...in the face of all that...

This is what happens when we can no longer make a distinction between respecting something about a person, some personality trait or some behavior. It is the same as when someone who is pro-choice is called pro-abortion.

I love Ozzie...I don't know if he has ever had a thought he didn't express, most of the time it is very poorly, but you always know where he stands and I respect him for that...(probably shouldn't have said that because that means I love and agree with everything he has ever said and done)

Ozzie is one of the few entertaining managers left in the sport.

in any sport, on any level...

pjhawks

ughh people really don't understand free speech. he was free to say what he said but that doesn't mean there aren't any consequencies. it just means you won't be jailed and/or thrown out of our country for it. it doesn't mean an employer has to accept everything you say.

EdsonNascimento

pjhawks wrote:

ughh people really don't understand free speech. he was free to say what he said but that doesn't mean there aren't any consequencies. it just means you won't be jailed and/or thrown out of our country for it. it doesn't mean an employer has to accept everything you say.

So obviously spot on it's funny.

There are also marketing concerns for the Marlins. They just changed their "location" name from Florida to Miami, and now their new manager pisses off a whole bunch of folks they were trying to market to. Not too smart.

He's not going to jail - that's free speech impingement. I'm free to go up to my boss and tell him he's a fat, stupid slob. He's also free to fire my ass (for insubordination). Free speech has nothing to do with it.

And we wonder why dopes get elected. :roll:

JonnyPistachio

EdsonNascimento wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

ughh people really don't understand free speech. he was free to say what he said but that doesn't mean there aren't any consequencies. it just means you won't be jailed and/or thrown out of our country for it. it doesn't mean an employer has to accept everything you say.

So obviously spot on it's funny.

There are also marketing concerns for the Marlins. They just changed their "location" name from Florida to Miami, and now their new manager pisses off a whole bunch of folks they were trying to market to. Not too smart.

He's not going to jail - that's free speech impingement. I'm free to go up to my boss and tell him he's a fat, stupid slob. He's also free to fire my ass (for insubordination). Free speech has nothing to do with it.

And we wonder why dopes get elected. :roll:

Agreed.
Is this one of those bad press is still press situations?

EdsonNascimento

JonnyPistachio wrote:

EdsonNascimento wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

ughh people really don't understand free speech. he was free to say what he said but that doesn't mean there aren't any consequencies. it just means you won't be jailed and/or thrown out of our country for it. it doesn't mean an employer has to accept everything you say.

So obviously spot on it's funny.

There are also marketing concerns for the Marlins. They just changed their "location" name from Florida to Miami, and now their new manager pisses off a whole bunch of folks they were trying to market to. Not too smart.

He's not going to jail - that's free speech impingement. I'm free to go up to my boss and tell him he's a fat, stupid slob. He's also free to fire my ass (for insubordination). Free speech has nothing to do with it.

And we wonder why dopes get elected. :roll:

Agreed.
Is this one of those bad press is still press situations?

Definitely not - until, that is, the Marlins eventually fire him. Then, it will be for the team (but not Guillen who will never get another job in the Major Leagues as this is not the first stupid thing he's done/said). But, by suspending him first, the Marlins get to "test the waters" AND prolong the press for another week.

shadowcast

This isn't a freedom of speech case as the government is not coming down on Ozzie. But I think corporations are getting a little to over zealous with policing people and in some cases now they can ask for your face book and twitter passwords http://news.yahoo.com/maryland-bill-ban ... 57546.html
But then you have to look at it like hey...it's their company and they can run it the way they want to.


Side note: The people protesting Ozzie are opportunistic headline hunters. There was like 20 people out there protesting.

Drowned Out

Hugo Chavez has a radio show? No shit....? hmph. :think: