Health Care Reform Supreme Court Case

Johnny Abruzzo

Arguments start today on Health Care Reform (I guess we're all supposed to call it Obamacare now - whatever).

I think it could go either way considering the current make up of the court, although I believe that the individual mandate is absolutely constitutional. (also, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea)

http://swampland.time.com/2012/03/26/health-reform-debate-arrives-in-the-supreme-court-why-its-not-about-obama/?iid=sl-main-lede

Here's the crux of it:

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the Constitution, commonly known as the Commerce Clause, gives Congress the power “…to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes,” and over the years that power has been found to be very broad. The two most significant precedents for congressional commerce clause power are Wickard v. Filburn (1942) and Gonzales v. Raich (2005).

Hopefully if the individual mandate is overturned they leave the rest of the law in place, since it does a lot of good things to curb predatory health insurance companies.

gimmesometruth27

my money is they will overturn it.

all of it.

they will argue that goverment stepped into the world of business. if corporations are people, then why can't that person do business the way it wants to do business? why can't they charge whatever they want and why do they have to cover people with pre-existing conditions if they don't want to?

i would like to think that the court would rule along the lines of what the op stated, but come on....we are talking about a group of people, many of whom, gave president bush the white house. as such, i can not trust them to make the right decision in any case, let alone something that obama supports....

edit to add, i kinda hope they overturn it so we can start over and get the universal single payer system that was never on the table to begin with...

mikepegg44

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

my money is they will overturn it.

all of it.

they will argue that goverment stepped into the world of business. if corporations are people, then why can't that person do business the way it wants to do business? why can't they charge whatever they want and why do they have to cover people with pre-existing conditions if they don't want to?

i would like to think that the court would rule along the lines of what the op stated, but come on....we are talking about a group of people, many of whom, gave president bush the white house. as such, i can not trust them to make the right decision in any case, let alone something that obama supports....

edit to add, i kinda hope they overturn it so we can start over and get the universal single payer system that was never on the table to begin with...

I think that would be a good thing.

I don't think the individual mandate from the federal government to have to buy a product is constitutional. It certainly opens the door for other industries. Why would health insurance be the only product they could do this on? The federal government does not have police powers over the states. It is definitely an interesting argument. I believe the abuse of the interstate commerce clause has done much to expand the federal governments role in everyday lives of people. This could be the start of a new look at it, or to continue with the precedent that has been set. Definitely interesting.

I don't think they will overturn the whole thing though, and quite frankly I don't think they will overturn the individual mandate either. Time will tell on what it does to premium costs...I don't think it will stop them from rising, but hopefully it does. It seems to me it is a boondoggle for the insurance companies without really doing much to create the kind of competition that would actually lower premiums

Johnny Abruzzo

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

edit to add, i kinda hope they overturn it so we can start over and get the universal single payer system that was never on the table to begin with...

Keep dreaming. Obviously that would be the best case scenario, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

gimmesometruth27

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

edit to add, i kinda hope they overturn it so we can start over and get the universal single payer system that was never on the table to begin with...

Keep dreaming. Obviously that would be the best case scenario, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

if i didn't have dreams or could not dream then you may as well just kill me now...

but you are right. the dem way of negotiating is to put on the table less than what they really want and start from there....it is like costanza negotiating with nbc for less money...

Newch91

I have to ask: why are/were Republicans crying over the individual mandate, when it was their idea to begin with?

Johnny Abruzzo

Newch91 wrote:

I have to ask: why are/were Republicans crying over the individual mandate, when it was their idea to begin with?

It was also a demand from the insurance industry, in exchange for not using pre-existing conditions to exclude people from coverage.

I'd love to know Newch.

polaris_x

i keep posting this but no one seems to want to respond ...

but the reasons why Health Care reform won't and can't work in the US is because of privatization and the corporate interests ...

there are too many mouths to feed ... every one wanting to profit ... doctors, clinics, surgeons, pharmaceuticals, insurance, hospitals, etc ...

you can't have a socialized health care system without socializing all the components ... that means not for profit hospitals, doctors, insurance, etc ...

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

i keep posting this but no one seems to want to respond ...

but the reasons why Health Care reform won't and can't work in the US is because of privatization and the corporate interests ...

there are too many mouths to feed ... every one wanting to profit ... doctors, clinics, surgeons, pharmaceuticals, insurance, hospitals, etc ...

you can't have a socialized health care system without socializing all the components ... that means not for profit hospitals, doctors, insurance, etc ...

So where in the world do you have a completely not for profit health care system that is adequate? Certainly not in Canada! Yet our system is somewhat adequate...far from perfect.

Johnny Abruzzo

polaris_x wrote:

i keep posting this but no one seems to want to respond ...

but the reasons why Health Care reform won't and can't work in the US is because of privatization and the corporate interests ...

there are too many mouths to feed ... every one wanting to profit ... doctors, clinics, surgeons, pharmaceuticals, insurance, hospitals, etc ...

you can't have a socialized health care system without socializing all the components ... that means not for profit hospitals, doctors, insurance, etc ...

I don't think there's a perfect health care system anywhere. Many of us here would prefer a single payer system, or completely socialized system like the UK. It just doesn't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon. PPACA is a big step for this country and I just hope we don't backtrack.

Insurance companies making profit seems wrong to me. Others though, like doctors and pharmy's to an extent, deserve a stake in the profit for their hard work. Why shouldn't doctors profit from improving people's health? Why would they spend all that money and put in all that work on medical school if they weren't going to profit?

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

So where in the world do you have a completely not for profit health care system that is adequate? Certainly not in Canada! Yet our system is somewhat adequate...far from perfect.

no ... it's far from perfect ... but the US spends the most on health care than any other country and that's because of the privatization model ... if everyone needs to profit - it's gonna cost a lot more ...

now ... obviously, it varies state to state and province to province but i'm telling you ... you don't know how lucky we have it here ... i am in NY a lot and it's crazy ... not only does it cost a lot ... they are always pushing the most profitable option meaning they want you to do surgery even tho you don't need it and its risky ... they want to prescribe you drugs you don't need that you then become addicted to ...

polaris_x

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

I don't think there's a perfect health care system anywhere. Many of us here would prefer a single payer system, or completely socialized system like the UK. It just doesn't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon. PPACA is a big step for this country and I just hope we don't backtrack.

Insurance companies making profit seems wrong to me. Others though, like doctors and pharmy's to an extent, deserve a stake in the profit for their hard work. Why shouldn't doctors profit from improving people's health? Why would they spend all that money and put in all that work on medical school if they weren't going to profit?

i think you misunderstand profit ... doctor's should get paid ... if we want to pay doctors $500k a year ... that's fine by me ... i'm nowhere implying that they should get paid a pittance ...

just take any standard illness and break down the costs ... if every line item is an entity that is privatized and requires profit ... it's pretty obvious the cost is going to be significantly more if it wasn't ... now, factor in the fact that if profit is the motivation - these private entities are going to not necessarily act in the interests of the patients ... but what is going to make that entity more profitable ...

Jason P

I don't know why the word "reform" keeps getting used in the media. :?:

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

So where in the world do you have a completely not for profit health care system that is adequate? Certainly not in Canada! Yet our system is somewhat adequate...far from perfect.

no ... it's far from perfect ... but the US spends the most on health care than any other country and that's because of the privatization model ... if everyone needs to profit - it's gonna cost a lot more ...

now ... obviously, it varies state to state and province to province but i'm telling you ... you don't know how lucky we have it here ... i am in NY a lot and it's crazy ... not only does it cost a lot ... they are always pushing the most profitable option meaning they want you to do surgery even tho you don't need it and its risky ... they want to prescribe you drugs you don't need that you then become addicted to ...

I know how lucky we have it...trust me. I just think here in Ontario we sometimes are too narrow minded...for example, I have to have surgery on my foot, I have 2 options, go to a foot clinic pay 2500 out of my own pocket and be done with the surgery within 2 weeks, then recover or wait till the end of June and see an Orthopedic surgeon and have the surgery done sometime in the summer, cost I'm guessing close to 15 grand...now my question, why not allow foot clinics to bill this under OHIP? my personal opinion why the government says no, the nurses union and doctors association.

I just think that we need to look at all options.

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

I know how lucky we have it...trust me. I just think here in Ontario we sometimes are too narrow minded...for example, I have to have surgery on my foot, I have 2 options, go to a foot clinic pay 2500 out of my own pocket and be done with the surgery within 2 weeks, then recover or wait till the end of June and see an Orthopedic surgeon and have the surgery done sometime in the summer, cost I'm guessing close to 15 grand...now my question, why not allow foot clinics to bill this under OHIP? my personal opinion why the government says no, the nurses union and doctors association.

I just think that we need to look at all options.

well ... i think what it boils down to is that slippery slope of privatization ... if we start allowing aspects of our health care system to be privatized - it changes the model altogether and eventually what we get is what the US has ... i'm not sure i agree with your assessment of nurses unions and doctors associations ... because if we went private ... these people could make more money and have better hours ... with our health care system stretched thin already ... most of the nurses/doctors are overworked and often underpaid ...

peacefrompaul

Jason P wrote:

I don't know why the word "reform" keeps getting used in the media. :?:

Haha good point

gimmesometruth27

we have a choice in america.

we can either pay for health care for all, or we can continue to have a massive military presence around the world to protect the interests that a few of us benefit from. we can't do both.

lukin2006

polaris_x wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I know how lucky we have it...trust me. I just think here in Ontario we sometimes are too narrow minded...for example, I have to have surgery on my foot, I have 2 options, go to a foot clinic pay 2500 out of my own pocket and be done with the surgery within 2 weeks, then recover or wait till the end of June and see an Orthopedic surgeon and have the surgery done sometime in the summer, cost I'm guessing close to 15 grand...now my question, why not allow foot clinics to bill this under OHIP? my personal opinion why the government says no, the nurses union and doctors association.

I just think that we need to look at all options.

well ... i think what it boils down to is that slippery slope of privatization ... if we start allowing aspects of our health care system to be privatized - it changes the model altogether and eventually what we get is what the US has ... i'm not sure i agree with your assessment of nurses unions and doctors associations ... because if we went private ... these people could make more money and have better hours ... with our health care system stretched thin already ... most of the nurses/doctors are overworked and often underpaid ...

I'm not saying go private...but allowing more options outside the hospital...I have no problem with. The nurses union and doctors associations are big time lobbyists...just like teachers unions.

polaris_x

lukin2006 wrote:

I'm not saying go private...but allowing more options outside the hospital...I have no problem with. The nurses union and doctors associations are big time lobbyists...just like teachers unions.

if the clinic is prepared to accept the cost OHIP mandates for the procedure ... sure ... i agree ... but will they? ... and there are a lot of lobbyists ... do you have anything that shows me they are more influential than any other one? ... in any case - we are derailing this thread ...

i don't see how the US supreme court doesn't overturn this ...

peacefrompaul

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

we have a choice in america.

we can either pay for health care for all, or we can continue to have a massive military presence around the world to protect the interests that a few of us benefit from. we can't do both.

Sure you can, have private health care and bring the troops home.

mikepegg44

polaris_x wrote:

i keep posting this but no one seems to want to respond ...

but the reasons why Health Care reform won't and can't work in the US is because of privatization and the corporate interests ...

there are too many mouths to feed ... every one wanting to profit ... doctors, clinics, surgeons, pharmaceuticals, insurance, hospitals, etc ...

you can't have a socialized health care system without socializing all the components ... that means not for profit hospitals, doctors, insurance, etc ...

what is to respond too?
I believe it is state to state, but hospitals in MN or not-for-profit entities. They give care at a loss.
People have jobs in the healthcare industry. I think the ball park is around 3 million...there are probably more that are connected to it somehow. To completely socialize all aspects of it takes away a lot of jobs. Obviously the nurses and doctors would still have jobs but many would be making a lot less than they do now...I think the ripple effect of a massive change would be damaging to a lot of people in the short term. Long term it is probably the only thing that will keep premiums from going so high that people would rather pay the bill when they get sick rather than the premiums when they are healthy. So it is a sticky wicket. People who have no political career in mind would be the ones who would have to try to pass actual healthcare reform. The people who had the chance...60 democratic senators I am looking at you...worried too much about their own political future.

Who knows...I don't think this bill does anything to stop those costs from rising anymore than the last farm spending bill...