What's so radical about caring for the Earth?

2

Comments

  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:

    The public does want it. It's become quite widespread to care about the earth. It's not some new fad that businesses feel the need to push. It's already there. Or are you not paying attention?


    Perhaps you aren't paying attention. The public wants it...but they have to want to help PAY for it. I dont think we are all the way there yet.

    The difficulty for businesses is the global environment. You have to compete with places that do not eat the cost of sustainability etc. So, the short-term is difficult. But, for long-term thinking the best companies are already working towards sustainability. They are also building it into any new facilities/projects/products, etc. That is a great thing.

    It doesn't cost the public one cent for a business to practice sustainability.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,895
    Jeanwah wrote:

    It doesn't cost the public one cent for a business to practice sustainability.


    Do you think sustainability projects are free? The economic situation currently has companies all over the world trying to figure out how to free up cash...guess how they do that? The cut capital, inventory, etc. Guess what you need for sustainability projects? Capital. And, they are looking for a 5 year return on investment for any projects. If they can't get it, they pass on the project. There are a lot of pretty easy sustainability projects that can be done that do pay back in less than 5 years. But, there are also a lot more that don't. And if the company cannot charge more for a "sustainable product" they may not have the cash for those projects.

    And again, companies have to compete with other companies and companies in other countries that don't care. And they don't care because their customers don't want to pay for it.

    So, I'm not saying it's not worth it. I'm just stating the real challenges to your utopia. We need longer term thinking.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:

    It doesn't cost the public one cent for a business to practice sustainability.


    Do you think sustainability projects are free? The economic situation currently has companies all over the world trying to figure out how to free up cash...guess how they do that? The cut capital, inventory, etc. Guess what you need for sustainability projects? Capital. And, they are looking for a 5 year return on investment for any projects. If they can't get it, they pass on the project. There are a lot of pretty easy sustainability projects that can be done that do pay back in less than 5 years. But, there are also a lot more that don't. And if the company cannot charge more for a "sustainable product" they may not have the cash for those projects.

    And again, companies have to compete with other companies and companies in other countries that don't care. And they don't care because their customers don't want to pay for it.

    So, I'm not saying it's not worth it. I'm just stating the real challenges to your utopia. We need longer term thinking.
    Good points. Maybe if the CEO's and others on top would cut their outrageous salaries enough to free up some of that cash to put into longer-term sustainability projects more of those projects would happen- which, in the long run, would be good for everyone.

    You also made a good point about the world-wide scope of the situation. Let's hope many countries see the wisdom of moving toward sustainability.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    brianlux wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:

    It doesn't cost the public one cent for a business to practice sustainability.


    Do you think sustainability projects are free? The economic situation currently has companies all over the world trying to figure out how to free up cash...guess how they do that? The cut capital, inventory, etc. Guess what you need for sustainability projects? Capital. And, they are looking for a 5 year return on investment for any projects. If they can't get it, they pass on the project. There are a lot of pretty easy sustainability projects that can be done that do pay back in less than 5 years. But, there are also a lot more that don't. And if the company cannot charge more for a "sustainable product" they may not have the cash for those projects.

    And again, companies have to compete with other companies and companies in other countries that don't care. And they don't care because their customers don't want to pay for it.

    So, I'm not saying it's not worth it. I'm just stating the real challenges to your utopia. We need longer term thinking.
    Good points. Maybe if the CEO's and others on top would cut their outrageous salaries enough to free up some of that cash to put into longer-term sustainability projects more of those projects would happen- which, in the long run, would be good for everyone.

    You also made a good point about the world-wide scope of the situation. Let's hope many countries see the wisdom of moving toward sustainability.

    no offense my friend but the large checks they earn are something that they have worked for thier whole lives and have earned it,that's not something you can take away from someone...and if you could see the profits made by the major corps you might not worry too much about the CEO bonus and pay amounts, I work for a large corp and follow the profits and stocks etc. it's just amazing what they profit at the end of the year, also I can tell you for certin that if said corps don't move up the scale on profits of if they drop in profit it's only a mater of time before the CEO and other high ranking managment are moved or cut and that's the hard reality of it bro...no profit no dice.

    Godfather.
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    I'm of the opinion that we have to leave it up to the people. If humans decide they want to create cataclysmic climate change... fine. The Earth will be back to normal in a blink of an eye (in relative terms) and we'll be gone and forgotten. Humanity has had a suicidal tendency for thousands of years and I think it is time to let go of this idea that we're important somehow, and stop trying to control chaos. Humans want to endlessly produce and consume shit at an exponentially increasing rate? Fine. We'll get what we deserve.

    or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm of the opinion that we have to leave it up to the people. If humans decide they want to create cataclysmic climate change... fine. The Earth will be back to normal in a blink of an eye (in relative terms) and we'll be gone and forgotten. Humanity has had a suicidal tendency for thousands of years and I think it is time to let go of this idea that we're important somehow, and stop trying to control chaos. Humans want to endlessly produce and consume shit at an exponentially increasing rate? Fine. We'll get what we deserve.

    or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning
    well you know what they say...he who dies with the most toys wins :lol:
    no I don't believe that but it is about how it seems to work.

    Godfather.
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:

    It doesn't cost the public one cent for a business to practice sustainability.


    Do you think sustainability projects are free? The economic situation currently has companies all over the world trying to figure out how to free up cash...guess how they do that? The cut capital, inventory, etc. Guess what you need for sustainability projects? Capital. And, they are looking for a 5 year return on investment for any projects. If they can't get it, they pass on the project. There are a lot of pretty easy sustainability projects that can be done that do pay back in less than 5 years. But, there are also a lot more that don't. And if the company cannot charge more for a "sustainable product" they may not have the cash for those projects.

    And again, companies have to compete with other companies and companies in other countries that don't care. And they don't care because their customers don't want to pay for it.

    So, I'm not saying it's not worth it. I'm just stating the real challenges to your utopia. We need longer term thinking.

    Dude. I worked at a company that set up a green initiative and rather than have to put *any* money into the project (I was on the committee), they simply make more environmental and sustainable choices that didn't cost a lot of money. There are ways to do this!! So don't go generalizing like you think that you're right in all of this. It takes innovation and creative thinking to make it work.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,895
    Jeanwah wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:

    It doesn't cost the public one cent for a business to practice sustainability.


    Do you think sustainability projects are free? The economic situation currently has companies all over the world trying to figure out how to free up cash...guess how they do that? The cut capital, inventory, etc. Guess what you need for sustainability projects? Capital. And, they are looking for a 5 year return on investment for any projects. If they can't get it, they pass on the project. There are a lot of pretty easy sustainability projects that can be done that do pay back in less than 5 years. But, there are also a lot more that don't. And if the company cannot charge more for a "sustainable product" they may not have the cash for those projects.

    And again, companies have to compete with other companies and companies in other countries that don't care. And they don't care because their customers don't want to pay for it.

    So, I'm not saying it's not worth it. I'm just stating the real challenges to your utopia. We need longer term thinking.

    Dude. I worked at a company that set up a green initiative and rather than have to put *any* money into the project (I was on the committee), they simply make more environmental and sustainable choices that didn't cost a lot of money. There are ways to do this!! So don't go generalizing like you think that you're right in all of this. It takes innovation and creative thinking to make it work.

    Did you read my entire post? of course not or you would have seen this... "There are a lot of pretty easy sustainability projects that can be done that do pay back in less than 5 years. But, there are also a lot more that don't. "

    I'm involved in sustainability with a pretty big company that does some great things. And still can't do everything without the payback. It's the reality. So don't patronize me.

    I never said I was right in all of this but it is simple Utopian bullshit to think it is easy to do it all right now.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    Cosmo wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    The only reason why I think environmentalism is Radical is because it is bad for business, i.e., it COSTS money, not MAKES money. Basic conservatism seems to lean towards the, 'Don't tell me how to run my business... just get out of my way and let me make money' side of the issue.
    Am I wrong?
    If so, then, please... tell me what it is.

    it is perceived to be bad for business ... the reality is if you factor in sustainability not only for resources but economically, the environment makes perfect sense ...
    ...
    Yeah, that may be. But isn't the usual arguement that it is bad for business and will cause employers to move overseas?
    I would tend to think Conservation would be at the forefront of conservatism... I mean, doesn't the name have 'Conserve' right in it?

    And if they move overseas then the idiotic American consumers should boycott the company, instead of turning the trade deficit wholly in China's favor. American consumers support communism and the trampling of basic human rights....imagine!

    Also, China, with Germany likely right behind, has got the solar panel market covered. So, another missed opportunity
    U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A.!!!!
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,895
    whygohome wrote:
    Also, China, with Germany likely right behind, has got the solar panel market covered. So, another missed opportunity
    U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A.!!!!

    How efficient is their solar power nowadays? I haven't looked at it in a while.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    Godfather. wrote:

    no offense my friend but the large checks they earn are something that they have worked for thier whole lives and have earned it,that's not something you can take away from someone...and if you could see the profits made by the major corps you might not worry too much about the CEO bonus and pay amounts, I work for a large corp and follow the profits and stocks etc. it's just amazing what they profit at the end of the year, also I can tell you for certin that if said corps don't move up the scale on profits of if they drop in profit it's only a mater of time before the CEO and other high ranking managment are moved or cut and that's the hard reality of it bro...no profit no dice.

    Godfather.

    Please. Worked their asses off? Let's not forget about nepotism.
    The negative correlation between an individual's importance to society and their income is staggering. I have friends who are millionaires in their early 30s after working on Wall St.f or only 10 years. They contribute nothing to society, pay nothing in taxes, and work in a field that rewards greed and selfishness. That's the problem with the system as it is now. How much do soldiers get paid? Fireman?

    Pure bullshit:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/2 ... f=business
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    cincybearcat wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    Also, China, with Germany likely right behind, has got the solar panel market covered. So, another missed opportunity
    U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A.!!!!

    How efficient is their solar power nowadays? I haven't looked at it in a while.

    Is it okay if I just cut and paste the last few articles I have read?

    http://www.npr.org/2012/01/19/145403625 ... -trade-war
    http://seekingalpha.com/article/320874- ... -potential
    http://reason.com/blog/2012/01/20/you-c ... in-the-air
    http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2 ... gy-towers/
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    Godfather. wrote:

    no offense my friend but the large checks they earn are something that they have worked for thier whole lives and have earned it,that's not something you can take away from someone...and if you could see the profits made by the major corps you might not worry too much about the CEO bonus and pay amounts, I work for a large corp and follow the profits and stocks etc. it's just amazing what they profit at the end of the year, also I can tell you for certin that if said corps don't move up the scale on profits of if they drop in profit it's only a mater of time before the CEO and other high ranking managment are moved or cut and that's the hard reality of it bro...no profit no dice.

    Godfather.

    Dang, Godfather, if that is true, how come I'm not a billionaire!!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm of the opinion that we have to leave it up to the people. If humans decide they want to create cataclysmic climate change... fine. The Earth will be back to normal in a blink of an eye (in relative terms) and we'll be gone and forgotten. Humanity has had a suicidal tendency for thousands of years and I think it is time to let go of this idea that we're important somehow, and stop trying to control chaos. Humans want to endlessly produce and consume shit at an exponentially increasing rate? Fine. We'll get what we deserve.

    or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning

    When I'm in a really pissed mood I feel exactly the same way. And then I remember that their are those younger than I, especially kids, who may well be screwed big time in their lifetime due to climate change after I'm dead and gone and I get right back into the fray. I do it for them. I've had a good and fairly long life. It's for them.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    brianlux wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm of the opinion that we have to leave it up to the people. If humans decide they want to create cataclysmic climate change... fine. The Earth will be back to normal in a blink of an eye (in relative terms) and we'll be gone and forgotten. Humanity has had a suicidal tendency for thousands of years and I think it is time to let go of this idea that we're important somehow, and stop trying to control chaos. Humans want to endlessly produce and consume shit at an exponentially increasing rate? Fine. We'll get what we deserve.

    or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning

    When I'm in a really pissed mood I feel exactly the same way. And then I remember that their are those younger than I, especially kids, who may well be screwed big time in their lifetime due to climate change after I'm dead and gone and I get right back into the fray. I do it for them. I've had a good and fairly long life. It's for them.

    wow what a great post !brianlux you are a good man with an honest heart.

    Godfather.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Jeanwah wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    David Suzuki is a scientist and environmentalist who lives in Canada. This article he wrote has Canada and its government in mind, but his ideas and thoughts are universal....


    i find it interesting that you feltthe need to say who david suzuki is. i thought everyone already knew. im not trying to be funny or condescending i just figure if i keep hearing about someone and hearing what they have to say that its the same for everyone.


    anyways i dont know why people find it easier to drop their trash on the ground than stuffing it in their pockets or bag. PICK UP YOUR TRASH PIGS!!!

    Ya know, I just threw that in in case someone didn't know who he was! Not everyone reads or pays attention... especially lately on this board with the trollish behavior of late... I find it interesting that you need to be sarcastic a lot of the time. :lol:

    do you now??? :think:
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    Just picked up a copy of this today. Looks like good reading!

    The-David-Suzuki-Reader-Suzuki-David-T-9781553650225.jpg
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm of the opinion that we have to leave it up to the people. If humans decide they want to create cataclysmic climate change... fine. The Earth will be back to normal in a blink of an eye (in relative terms) and we'll be gone and forgotten. Humanity has had a suicidal tendency for thousands of years and I think it is time to let go of this idea that we're important somehow, and stop trying to control chaos. Humans want to endlessly produce and consume shit at an exponentially increasing rate? Fine. We'll get what we deserve.

    or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning

    The minute when realize that money is not the answer to our problems, nor the end goal, perhaps then we'll wake up and discover what's truly important. Life. Love. Friends, family and taking care of each other. But the notion that money is more important than anything else has pretty much taken over humanity (capitalism). We just need to realize that in order to thrive as well as continue to thrive, for the sake of our future generations.
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    Jeanwah wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm of the opinion that we have to leave it up to the people. If humans decide they want to create cataclysmic climate change... fine. The Earth will be back to normal in a blink of an eye (in relative terms) and we'll be gone and forgotten. Humanity has had a suicidal tendency for thousands of years and I think it is time to let go of this idea that we're important somehow, and stop trying to control chaos. Humans want to endlessly produce and consume shit at an exponentially increasing rate? Fine. We'll get what we deserve.

    or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning

    The minute when realize that money is not the answer to our problems, nor the end goal, perhaps then we'll wake up and discover what's truly important. Life. Love. Friends, family and taking care of each other. But the notion that money is more important than anything else has pretty much taken over humanity (capitalism). We just need to realize that in order to thrive as well as continue to thrive, for the sake of our future generations.

    the thing is, most people DO KNOW that is what's important. If it were strictly up to the people, pollution and other forms of environmental degradation would be gone. Of all the people you know, how many would put emphasis on the almighty dollar over the environment? For me it ain't many...

    it is big government and big business, working together against the interests of the people, that have fucked up shit. Well, at least over the past 40 years or so since we've become aware that we do have an impact on climate. Free trade and the world economy I think are largely to blame, but in economics class you're simply taught that the environment is a "negative externality" that is subjectively smaller than the producer and consumer surplus.

    I don't know... I know some of my thoughts are contradictory. I just don't see this as a problem that is fixable.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    he still stands wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    I'm of the opinion that we have to leave it up to the people. If humans decide they want to create cataclysmic climate change... fine. The Earth will be back to normal in a blink of an eye (in relative terms) and we'll be gone and forgotten. Humanity has had a suicidal tendency for thousands of years and I think it is time to let go of this idea that we're important somehow, and stop trying to control chaos. Humans want to endlessly produce and consume shit at an exponentially increasing rate? Fine. We'll get what we deserve.

    or maybe I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning

    The minute when realize that money is not the answer to our problems, nor the end goal, perhaps then we'll wake up and discover what's truly important. Life. Love. Friends, family and taking care of each other. But the notion that money is more important than anything else has pretty much taken over humanity (capitalism). We just need to realize that in order to thrive as well as continue to thrive, for the sake of our future generations.

    the thing is, most people DO KNOW that is what's important. If it were strictly up to the people, pollution and other forms of environmental degradation would be gone. Of all the people you know, how many would put emphasis on the almighty dollar over the environment? For me it ain't many...

    it is big government and big business, working together against the interests of the people, that have fucked up shit. Well, at least over the past 40 years or so since we've become aware that we do have an impact on climate. Free trade and the world economy I think are largely to blame, but in economics class you're simply taught that the environment is a "negative externality" that is subjectively smaller than the producer and consumer surplus.

    I don't know... I know some of my thoughts are contradictory. I just don't see this as a problem that is fixable.

    I think many people know that money is pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things, but there are still so many who are wrapped up in greed, competition, and selfishness that I think the problem isn't fixable either. World leaders lead that way to short-sightedness, and the people (the sheep anyway) follow. I'm gunning toward a higher consciousness, and would like to see more follow that train of thought. But it probably won't be everyone; money preoccupation is a disease, and inevitably that disease will bring the species down. So I do what I can do on a small scale of making the world a better place to live, I teach my daughter about the environment and why taking care of others is so important, and not to listen to what society and the media tells us what we should believe is important.

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