Cooperation not Competition...

RW81233

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... J.facebook

You mean when you severely diminish economic inequality, pay teachers what they are worth, and give them the responsibilty to assess students the students outperform American kids and compete with the best students in the world? I'll be damned...

peacefrompaul

RW81233 wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/#.Tv8a8s6YIgJ.facebook

You mean when you severely diminish economic inequality, pay teachers what they are worth, and give them the responsibilty to assess students the students outperform American kids and compete with the best students in the world? I'll be damned...

They also do not have private schools.

RW81233

Private School is such a funny idea...it's like a country club for kids to go learn at. Disclaimer...I attended a private college for undergrad after two years of community college, but really didn't understand what it meant.

peacefrompaul

RW81233 wrote:

Private School is such a funny idea...it's like a country club for kids to go learn at. Disclaimer...I attended a private college for undergrad after two years of community college, but really didn't understand what it meant.

Now you're talking college. That's different.

RW81233

It is a little different, but, even then it's a way for rich parents to seperate their kids from poor students. In Finland all schools, including Universities, are public. Magically they dominate us in education.

peacefrompaul

RW81233 wrote:

It is a little different, but, even then it's a way for rich parents to seperate their kids from poor students. In Finland all schools, including Universities, are public. Magically they dominate us in education.

Magically because good teachers won't teach anywhere else. There is nowhere else to make more money in Finland.

RW81233

Here we'd rather throw money willy nilly into "charter schools" but not actually reward teachers who promote learning.

peacefrompaul

RW81233 wrote:

Here we'd rather throw money willy nilly into "charter schools" but not actually reward teachers who promote learning.

We can't promote good teachers because of the teachers union.

Have you seen Waiting for Superman?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/

peacefrompaul

Oh you're a teacher. Well I probably can't convince you.

blueandwhite

I've always wondered; is education the most despised career choice in the US? A lot of the posts on the train would lend me to believe that being a welfare mom is a step up from being a teacher in the United States.

As for the Finnish model; it would never work in the US. Equitable access to education doesn't seem to be something Americans want; just like equitable access to health care and social security. Those concepts are too socialist for the US to even entertain.

peacefrompaul

blueandwhite wrote:

I've always wondered; is education the most despised career choice in the US? A lot of the posts on the train would lend me to believe that being a welfare mom is a step up from being a teacher in the United States.

As for the Finnish model; it would never work in the US. Equitable access to education doesn't seem to be something Americans want; just like equitable access to health care and social security. Those concepts are too socialist for the US to even entertain.

What about the Health Care Bill?

FiveB247x

Perhaps the problem isn't always the schools or teachers (whether private or public), but instead the parenting of children which instill kids with the necessary attention and morals to succeed. Look around our nation, that's what has changed most and the root cause of why our education system has been on the decline...but instead of addressing that, we think we can throw money at the problem and it obviously doesn't work.

blueandwhite

peacefrompaul wrote:

What about the Health Care Bill?

Again, speaking from an outsider's POV; that doesn't seem to be all that popular down there either.

RW81233

peacefrompaul wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

Here we'd rather throw money willy nilly into "charter schools" but not actually reward teachers who promote learning.

We can't promote good teachers because of the teachers union.

Have you seen Waiting for Superman?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/

Yeah I've seen waiting for superman - it brought up some decent points. You are also right that there should be some sort of reward system for excellence in teaching. However, as another poster mentioned some of the problems we have in education are not teacher based, but rather the products of the contexts from which students are emerging from. At the same time we have this unfounded hatred for unions in this country that makes little sense. Unions, in general, look out for the best interests of the workers (which many of us are)...I don't get why we don't like them in this country.

ONCE DEVIDED

Middle class and rich America don't want to lend a helping hand to others in healthcare..
Do you really think they would allow an equal footing in education.
Get real
It's a nation of me first and the give me give me

RW81233

Those same people often claim to be religious. The weird part, and this isn't always true, is that conservatives claim to listen to god but participate in things that wouldn't be considered very christian/catholic. Conversely, liberals, often disavow god or organized religion but behave in ways that would seem more consistent with what religion teaches (loving thy neighbor and respecting others for who they are, etc.).

ONCE DEVIDED

RW81233 wrote:

Those same people often claim to be religious. The weird part, and this isn't always true, is that conservatives claim to listen to god but participate in things that wouldn't be considered very christian/catholic. Conversely, liberals, often disavow god or organized religion but behave in ways that would seem more consistent with what religion teaches (loving thy neighbor and respecting others for who they are, etc.).

Your right. The most closed mind negative greedy people I know are all Christians who claim to live a Christian life..

peacefrompaul

RW81233 wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

Here we'd rather throw money willy nilly into "charter schools" but not actually reward teachers who promote learning.

We can't promote good teachers because of the teachers union.

Have you seen Waiting for Superman?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/

Yeah I've seen waiting for superman - it brought up some decent points. You are also right that there should be some sort of reward system for excellence in teaching. However, as another poster mentioned some of the problems we have in education are not teacher based, but rather the products of the contexts from which students are emerging from. At the same time we have this unfounded hatred for unions in this country that makes little sense. Unions, in general, look out for the best interests of the workers (which many of us are)...I don't get why we don't like them in this country.

I agree for the most part.

peacefrompaul

blueandwhite wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

What about the Health Care Bill?

Again, speaking from an outsider's POV; that doesn't seem to be all that popular down there either.

Alright cool, thanks for the input. It's always interesting to see what folks in other countries think about things going on in the states.

peacefrompaul

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

It's a nation of me first and the give me give me

"So it is, so it's always been."

Go Beavers

FiveB247x wrote:

Perhaps the problem isn't always the schools or teachers (whether private or public), but instead the parenting of children which instill kids with the necessary attention and morals to succeed. Look around our nation, that's what has changed most and the root cause of why our education system has been on the decline...but instead of addressing that, we think we can throw money at the problem and it obviously doesn't work.

What, in regard to parenting, has changed over time that's effected education. You're saying less attention at home and moral decline?

your move now

maybe the point is that you can't blame the teachers, it's not their job to instil moral behaviours/raise the children

Go Beavers

blueandwhite wrote:

I've always wondered; is education the most despised career choice in the US? A lot of the posts on the train would lend me to believe that being a welfare mom is a step up from being a teacher in the United States.

I'll generalize about people who are negative about teachers with the following description. They tend to think that public school is a form of liberal indoctrination, they tend to be anti-union so most negatives about public school are therefore the fault of unions, they tend to have had negative school/teacher experiences. and their view is that education is means to a job.

Byrnzie

RW81233 wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/#.Tv8a8s6YIgJ.facebook

You mean when you severely diminish economic inequality, pay teachers what they are worth, and give them the responsibilty to assess students the students outperform American kids and compete with the best students in the world? I'll be damned...

Interesting article. I remember reading somewhere that Finnish school pupils spend the least hours at school of any other pupils in Europe, yet they get the best grades of any European country.

In China school pupils begin school at 7am and leave at 5pm, six days a week, with about 2-3 hours of homework to do every evening.

RW81233

Byrnzie wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/#.Tv8a8s6YIgJ.facebook

You mean when you severely diminish economic inequality, pay teachers what they are worth, and give them the responsibilty to assess students the students outperform American kids and compete with the best students in the world? I'll be damned...

Interesting article. I remember reading somewhere that Finnish school pupils spend the least hours at school of any other pupils in Europe, yet they get the best grades of any European country.

In China school pupils begin school at 7am and leave at 5pm, six days a week, with about 2-3 hours of homework to do every evening.

Yea two wildly different forms of schooling that have success. Finland also has a real aversion to failing students - even those that are immigrants and are learning a second language get remedial time with teachers so that they catch up.

FiveB247x

Yes - we have more self-involved people, lots more unfit people having children which sets forth a child not having the proper foundations to succeed in life and in turn puts forth the cycle for the child to grow up in such an environment and emulate it for their own children. Education and teaching come under scrutiny more because they are expected to not only teach, but to become moral leaders and baby sitters because the families are dropping the ball.

Go Beavers wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Perhaps the problem isn't always the schools or teachers (whether private or public), but instead the parenting of children which instill kids with the necessary attention and morals to succeed. Look around our nation, that's what has changed most and the root cause of why our education system has been on the decline...but instead of addressing that, we think we can throw money at the problem and it obviously doesn't work.

What, in regard to parenting, has changed over time that's effected education. You're saying less attention at home and moral decline?

photogirlliz

FiveB247x wrote:

Education and teaching come under scrutiny more because they are expected to not only teach, but to become moral leaders and baby sitters because the families are dropping the ball.

YES!

Something else I've noticed, in addition to parents dropping the ball, is that parents don't seem to want to hear anything negative about their children...I mean, they're perfect, right? :roll: It seems teachers are being blamed for things that children, themselves, used to be blamed for (i.e.: bad grades, bad behavior, etc...). I have found an increasing number of parents refuse to hold their kids accountable for anything now...or better yet themselves.

FiveB247x

Absolutely. We have this nonsensical mantra we try and convince society, that every child is smart, special and never needs adjustment, punishment or to work harder. Instead we adjust grading and how to move kids through the system and the end result is we have a dumber society incapable of holding their own in the real world, and the educational system and process as a result is lessened and compromised.

photogirlliz wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Education and teaching come under scrutiny more because they are expected to not only teach, but to become moral leaders and baby sitters because the families are dropping the ball.

YES!

Something else I've noticed, in addition to parents dropping the ball, is that parents don't seem to want to hear anything negative about their children...I mean, they're perfect, right? :roll: It seems teachers are being blamed for things that children, themselves, used to be blamed for (i.e.: bad grades, bad behavior, etc...). I have found an increasing number of parents refuse to hold their kids accountable for anything now...or better yet themselves.

inlet13

photogirlliz wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Education and teaching come under scrutiny more because they are expected to not only teach, but to become moral leaders and baby sitters because the families are dropping the ball.

YES!

Something else I've noticed, in addition to parents dropping the ball, is that parents don't seem to want to hear anything negative about their children...I mean, they're perfect, right? :roll: It seems teachers are being blamed for things that children, themselves, used to be blamed for (i.e.: bad grades, bad behavior, etc...). I have found an increasing number of parents refuse to hold their kids accountable for anything now...or better yet themselves.

I agree with both of you. And, in my opinion, when extended... these points run 100% in opposition to the original poster's points.

In general, our society has changed from a society based on individual responsibility and competition, to a society based on shared responsibility and "cooperation".... the problem with shared responsibility and cooperation is no one wants the blame when things don't work. The blame is typically tossed at "the man"... yet, "the man" is needed. In this case, "the man" is the teacher, not the student. The teacher is also getting flack from top down. That's why cooperation breaks down. Incentives are placed on the teacher to coddle and please the student, not teach them. The teacher doesn't want to deal with crazy parents, nor do they want to deal with poor reviews and the aftermath from their supervisor. The easy out is to be "liked"... which doesn't necessarily mean "be a good teacher". To me, teachers are paid plenty... this doesn't have to do with salaries, it has to do with incentives.

The token example here is the "everyone gets a trophy" and "everyone wins" BS that is now pervasive in child sports. It's idiotic, and it helps contribute to this "gimme my trophy or grade or job or great salary" philosophy.

Competition and individual responsibility is the answer... not the problem. The problem is we've moved towards this shared approach and it's pretty much too late to get out. It's pervasive now in our culture.

RW81233

but wasn't the entire article about the fact that cooperation can and does work? saying we operate within a very cooperative educational system is just patently untrue. Finland doesn't use standardized tests, don't fail students, pay their teachers and they compete at the highest level.

FiveB247x

True - I can't speak on behalf of other posters, but my point is solely, our society and culture do no create good environments for students. Part of that could be the teachers, the system or similar, but the largest part is the fact of our parents not putting their children in the right path to succeed.

RW81233 wrote:

but wasn't the entire article about the fact that cooperation can and does work? saying we operate within a very cooperative educational system is just patently untrue. Finland doesn't use standardized tests, don't fail students, pay their teachers and they compete at the highest level.