last night's elections...

gimmesometruth27

Looks like the voters in ohio slapped down the anti union law and mississippi voted down the personhood/anti-choice/anti-women's rights law. also, in arizona, the man who drafted the controversial immigration law got his butt recalled...

looks like the voters in these states are a little more moderate than what their leaders would have us believe...i think the lesson is right wing extremism is not going to be tolerated. nor will left wing extremism for that matter....

good on the people of these states.

funny thing is it was pointed out to me by a friend that boehner was all over twitter yesterday trying to get the people of ohio out to the polls, and as of 9 am central today there was not a peep from him...i am sure this result stings for him...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ississippi

MayDay Malone

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Looks like the voters in ohio slapped down the anti union law and mississippi voted down the personhood/anti-choice/anti-women's rights law. also, in arizona, the man who drafted the controversial immigration law got his butt recalled...

looks like the voters in these states are a little more moderate than what their leaders would have us believe...i think the lesson is right wing extremism is not going to be tolerated. nor will left wing extremism for that matter....

good on the people of these states.

funny thing is it was pointed out to me by a friend that boehner was all over twitter yesterday trying to get the people of ohio out to the polls, and as of 9 am central today there was not a peep from him...i am sure this result stings for him...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ississippi

Just fascinating.

Really.

Hope this goes 100 pages...

gimmesometruth27

MayDay Malone wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Looks like the voters in ohio slapped down the anti union law and mississippi voted down the personhood/anti-choice/anti-women's rights law. also, in arizona, the man who drafted the controversial immigration law got his butt recalled...

looks like the voters in these states are a little more moderate than what their leaders would have us believe...i think the lesson is right wing extremism is not going to be tolerated. nor will left wing extremism for that matter....

good on the people of these states.

funny thing is it was pointed out to me by a friend that boehner was all over twitter yesterday trying to get the people of ohio out to the polls, and as of 9 am central today there was not a peep from him...i am sure this result stings for him...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ississippi

Just fascinating.

Really.

Hope this goes 100 pages...

yeah i guess it is fascinating that common sense won out :roll:

_

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Looks like the voters in ohio slapped down the anti union law and mississippi voted down the personhood/anti-choice/anti-women's rights law. also, in arizona, the man who drafted the controversial immigration law got his butt recalled...

looks like the voters in these states are a little more moderate than what their leaders would have us believe...i think the lesson is right wing extremism is not going to be tolerated. nor will left wing extremism for that matter....

good on the people of these states.

funny thing is it was pointed out to me by a friend that boehner was all over twitter yesterday trying to get the people of ohio out to the polls, and as of 9 am central today there was not a peep from him...i am sure this result stings for him...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ississippi

Yes, yesterday was a good day at the polls! Gives me a little more hope for this country. Thanks for posting!

klusterfuk

Boehner and Kasich need to go now

mikepegg44

The law also would have required performance-based pay for most public employees and required them to pay 15 percent of the cost of their health care benefits.

Doesn't that seem fair?

why people think Unions don't need to be put in check in the public sector is beyond me...I would imagine it is because they don't have any direct experience with the unions and their positives and negatives. All public employee unions should have limits in place...why is that such a terrible thing?

Doesn't it seem rather strange to anyone that a Union can force you to pay through payroll deduction in public sector jobs, but that they can also seemingly give unchecked amounts of money to make sure the politicians that keep the gravy train running for the union officials. I realize that employees can choose to not work for the government because of this...but if the government wants the best and the brightest, they should definitely think about changing the money wasting union system.

I hadn't read too much about the abortion initiative but am always a little skeptical of anything called anti-abortion legislation...glad it was shot down, when things are painted as anti-abortion laws it directly or indirectly implies the other side is pro abortion. I hate that shit.

josevolution

mikepegg44 wrote:

The law also would have required performance-based pay for most public employees and required them to pay 15 percent of the cost of their health care benefits.

Doesn't that seem fair?

why people think Unions don't need to be put in check in the public sector is beyond me...I would imagine it is because they don't have any direct experience with the unions and their positives and negatives. All public employee unions should have limits in place...why is that such a terrible thing?

Doesn't it seem rather strange to anyone that a Union can force you to pay through payroll deduction in public sector jobs, but that they can also seemingly give unchecked amounts of money to make sure the politicians that keep the gravy train running for the union officials. I realize that employees can choose to not work for the government because of this...but if the government wants the best and the brightest, they should definitely think about changing the money wasting union system.

I hadn't read too much about the abortion initiative but am always a little skeptical of anything called anti-abortion legislation...glad it was shot down, when things are painted as anti-abortion laws it directly or indirectly implies the other side is pro abortion. I hate that shit.

It seems fair except the part about not having any negotiating rights

Go Beavers

mikepegg44 wrote:

The law also would have required performance-based pay for most public employees and required them to pay 15 percent of the cost of their health care benefits.

Doesn't that seem fair?

why people think Unions don't need to be put in check in the public sector is beyond me...I would imagine it is because they don't have any direct experience with the unions and their positives and negatives. All public employee unions should have limits in place...why is that such a terrible thing?

Doesn't it seem rather strange to anyone that a Union can force you to pay through payroll deduction in public sector jobs, but that they can also seemingly give unchecked amounts of money to make sure the politicians that keep the gravy train running for the union officials. I realize that employees can choose to not work for the government because of this...but if the government wants the best and the brightest, they should definitely think about changing the money wasting union system.

I hadn't read too much about the abortion initiative but am always a little skeptical of anything called anti-abortion legislation...glad it was shot down, when things are painted as anti-abortion laws it directly or indirectly implies the other side is pro abortion. I hate that shit.

Performance based pay doesn't seem fair. Depending on the position, it's too hard to define and create a valid measurement device. It's a big can of crap when opened.

snow_board_rider

I can't wait until June when Washington State gets out of the booze selling game and I will be able to get it at the grocery store. Good Job voters of Washington!!

mickeyrat

klusterfuk wrote:

Boehner and Kasich need to go now

I liked Kasich as a Congressman. Seemed more balanced or centrist. Like he was working for the good of the whole rather the far right. I still think he has a shot at doing some good in our state. Hopefully this little ass spanking does him some good. Boehner on the other hand needs to shut the fuck up and lead by example. Or barring that just shutting the fuck up works by itself!!

mickeyrat

MayDay Malone wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Looks like the voters in ohio slapped down the anti union law and mississippi voted down the personhood/anti-choice/anti-women's rights law. also, in arizona, the man who drafted the controversial immigration law got his butt recalled...

looks like the voters in these states are a little more moderate than what their leaders would have us believe...i think the lesson is right wing extremism is not going to be tolerated. nor will left wing extremism for that matter....

good on the people of these states.

funny thing is it was pointed out to me by a friend that boehner was all over twitter yesterday trying to get the people of ohio out to the polls, and as of 9 am central today there was not a peep from him...i am sure this result stings for him...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ississippi

Just fascinating.

Really.

Hope this goes 100 pages...

oh it is fascinating. Lets see. The voters of Ohio said in no uncertain terms Fuck you for the attempted Union Busting GUV. Unlike the good folks up Wisconsin way. For a state that has a Repub Governor, 1 Senator and numerous Reps as republican it says ALOT very LOUDLY. Now , if we can get a more equitable redistricting map in place. To my mind it shouldn't be a factor how an area votes.

gimmesometruth27

Progressives Win Big In Ballot Measures Nationwide

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 ... 83707.html

WASHINGTON -- Tuesday's elections saw big wins for progressives around the country, who blocked right-wing measures on issues of voting, labor, immigrant and women's rights.

"I think all around, heading into 2012, it's the strongest message we could possibly have that the other side has gone too far," said Justine Sarver, executive director of the Ballot Initiative Strategy Center, of Tuesday's results. She added that it was one of the best elections in recent years for progressive wins on ballot measures, which have traditionally been dominated by conservatives.

The most high-profile fight was in Ohio, where labor unions sought to repeal SB 5, a measure that restricted collective bargaining rights for more than 360,000 public employees, among other provisions.

Democrats, Republicans and independents joined together to deliver a "sharp rebuke" to Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R), whose first term has been defined by his support for SB 5. More than 60 percent of Ohio voters rejected Issue 2, which would have kept SB 5 in place.

A humbled Kasich held a press conference shortly after the fate of Issue 2 was sealed, saying it was time for him to take a "deep breath" and think about what to do next.

"When I say it is a time to pause, it is right now, on this issue," he said. "The people have spoken clearly. You don't ignore the public."

In Mississippi, voters rejected a far-reaching "personhood" amendment that would have declared a fertilized egg a legal person under the state Constitution, making it illegal for women in the state to use birth control, among other impacts.

The measure was so extreme that even strong pro-life advocates wavered in their support, with Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour (R) saying he wasn't sure if he was going to back it.

Maine voters reinstated the right to register to vote on Election Day, a law that had been in place for four decades until Gov. Paul LePage (R) signed legislation requiring voters to register at least two business days before an election. More than 60 percent of voters rejected the GOP-backed measure, arguing it would serve to depress voter turnout and hamper democracy.

At a more local level, residents of Traverse City, Mich. voted overwhelmingly to keep in place a non-discrimination ordinance prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Opponents of the ordinance argued that it singled out LGBT individuals for special protections.

Openly gay and lesbian candidates nationwide also scored big victories on Tuesday. At least 53 of the 75 candidates endorsed by the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund won their races. Indianapolis, Cincinnati and Charlotte, N.C. all made history by electing their first openly gay candidates to city council. In Virginia, meanwhile, "Adam Ebbin became the first openly gay person elected to the State Senate, and in New Jersey, Tim Eustace became the first non-incumbent openly gay candidate to win a seat in the State Assembly," Gay Politics reported.

In addition, two prominent Republican state lawmakers were voted out of office in recall elections. Arizona State Sen. Russell Pearce (R), the controversial architect of Arizona's immigration law, was defeated by Jerry Lewis, a fellow Republican who does not support the immigration crackdown. Pearce was the top Republican in the state Senate.

In Michigan, state Rep. Paul Scott (R) lost his seat in a close recall election. As chairman of the House Education Committee, Scott "was targeted by the Michigan Education Association for policies that weakened teacher tenure and cut education funding," according to the Associated Press. Republican lawmakers, Gov. Rick Snyder (R) and former D.C. schools chancellor Michelle Rhee, a Democrat who has battled teachers unions, all supported his policies.

While Mississippi voted down the "personhood" measure, the state did approve a proposed constitutional amendment that would require voters to show photo identification at the polls. Ohio voters also approved a largely symbolic measure meant to object to federal health care reform. The official language on the ballot said it would "preserve the freedom of Ohioans to choose their health care and health care coverage."

Republicans also gained seats in the Virginia legislature, and were "on the verge of taking over the Virginia Senate on Tuesday night and clinching control of all of state government for only the second time in more than a century." Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) said it was "a very good night for Republicans in Virginia."

mikepegg44

Go Beavers wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

The law also would have required performance-based pay for most public employees and required them to pay 15 percent of the cost of their health care benefits.

Doesn't that seem fair?

why people think Unions don't need to be put in check in the public sector is beyond me...I would imagine it is because they don't have any direct experience with the unions and their positives and negatives. All public employee unions should have limits in place...why is that such a terrible thing?

Doesn't it seem rather strange to anyone that a Union can force you to pay through payroll deduction in public sector jobs, but that they can also seemingly give unchecked amounts of money to make sure the politicians that keep the gravy train running for the union officials. I realize that employees can choose to not work for the government because of this...but if the government wants the best and the brightest, they should definitely think about changing the money wasting union system.

I hadn't read too much about the abortion initiative but am always a little skeptical of anything called anti-abortion legislation...glad it was shot down, when things are painted as anti-abortion laws it directly or indirectly implies the other side is pro abortion. I hate that shit.

Performance based pay doesn't seem fair. Depending on the position, it's too hard to define and create a valid measurement device. It's a big can of crap when opened.

well speaking for someone who works in public health, the unions take away a lot from what we could accomplish. number one by saving jobs for people who are terrible at what they do. Some of you guys may work in unions, but AFSCME is the absolute worst. None of us are getting pay increases (which because of terrible monetary policy is actually a decrease) so that people who are terrible at their job, waste tax payer dollars through sheer lazy are able to skate by because it is next to impossible to fire anyone.
I may be making a grand assumption, but it seems to me that anyone who thinks performance based pay isn't possible clearly has never worked in management. ROWE ...look it up

cincybearcat

Go Beavers wrote:

Performance based pay doesn't seem fair. Depending on the position, it's too hard to define and create a valid measurement device. It's a big can of crap when opened.

Huh? How do you measure success then? And how do you hold people accountable to do their job?

Jason P

cincybearcat wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

Performance based pay doesn't seem fair. Depending on the position, it's too hard to define and create a valid measurement device. It's a big can of crap when opened.

Huh? How do you measure success then? And how do you hold people accountable to do their job?

I'll second that "huh?". How is it hard to create performance indicators? If you can't do that, then how to you come up with a job description???

Has anyone ever applied for a job that didn't have a description of what you are supposed to do? This is a serious question.

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

Huh? How do you measure success then? And how do you hold people accountable to do their job?

performance is completely subjective and because not many people's jobs are done in isolation ... most people work environment where they are part of a team where their actions contribute to his/her departments objectives which contribute to the larger entity's objectives ...

the performance of another co-worker could directly impact anothers ... also, there are intangibles that don't get accounted for ... you could do all your work on time but maybe you are an asshole to everyone or just not pleasant to be around ... how do you measure that? ...

take mlb for example ... do we pay each players strictly on stats like hits, rbis, runs? ... some players get more rbis cuz the guys in front of him in the lineup get on more ... some players get more runs because guys behind them hit better ... also, how do you judge defense? ... how do you factor in leadership in the clubhouse and willingness to help other players?

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Huh? How do you measure success then? And how do you hold people accountable to do their job?

performance is completely subjective and because not many people's jobs are done in isolation ... most people work environment where they are part of a team where their actions contribute to his/her departments objectives which contribute to the larger entity's objectives ...

the performance of another co-worker could directly impact anothers ... also, there are intangibles that don't get accounted for ... you could do all your work on time but maybe you are an asshole to everyone or just not pleasant to be around ... how do you measure that? ...

take mlb for example ... do we pay each players strictly on stats like hits, rbis, runs? ... some players get more rbis cuz the guys in front of him in the lineup get on more ... some players get more runs because guys behind them hit better ... also, how do you judge defense? ... how do you factor in leadership in the clubhouse and willingness to help other players?

Nope, but you still evaluate their overall performance and they are paid accordingly. Anyone who thinks you can't evaluate someone's performance is kidding themselves.

Sure, lots of factors, and you take them all into account when evaluating performance. It's crazy to me that teachers have convinced people that you can't tell who is a good teacher and who is a bad teacher.

Go Beavers

cincybearcat wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Huh? How do you measure success then? And how do you hold people accountable to do their job?

performance is completely subjective and because not many people's jobs are done in isolation ... most people work environment where they are part of a team where their actions contribute to his/her departments objectives which contribute to the larger entity's objectives ...

the performance of another co-worker could directly impact anothers ... also, there are intangibles that don't get accounted for ... you could do all your work on time but maybe you are an asshole to everyone or just not pleasant to be around ... how do you measure that? ...

take mlb for example ... do we pay each players strictly on stats like hits, rbis, runs? ... some players get more rbis cuz the guys in front of him in the lineup get on more ... some players get more runs because guys behind them hit better ... also, how do you judge defense? ... how do you factor in leadership in the clubhouse and willingness to help other players?

Nope, but you still evaluate their overall performance and they are paid accordingly. Anyone who thinks you can't evaluate someone's performance is kidding themselves.

Sure, lots of factors, and you take them all into account when evaluating performance. It's crazy to me that teachers have convinced people that you can't tell who is a good teacher and who is a bad teacher.

Teaching is a good example of where it's very difficult to measure performance. I don't think they're saying that you can't tell who's a good teacher, and who's a bad teacher, they're saying what's used to determine this is flawed. If they come up with a way to measure it, the only result will be that students will receive a lesser education. Anyone who actually thinks about many of the positions unions represent, and then think it's easy to measure their performance is kidding themselves.

We've all worked with a lame co-worker who doesn't do a very good job, but they look good in the eyes of the boss. They do this by playing up to the measurement devices the boss is using, but as a co-worker we have a different perspective on what they're not doing in regards to the 'team' aspects of the job.

Monster Rain

My mother is a retired teacher and I do believe that there are ways to measure a teacher's performance. Logically, there must be, otherwise how would administrators know which teachers to retain and which ones to cut loose?

I don't think there's any one thing to measure that would give you the full picture, but there are very few jobs that could be assessed by just one measurement. You can look at a combination of things like how well the teacher's students perform on standardized tests compared to goals set by the school board, participation in any extracurricular activities, the teacher's attendance, classroom observations throughout the year, etc.

In my job right now, there aren't many things I can be evaluated on that have a numeric goal associated with them but I still am evaluated every year and my raise depends on how I perform.

Go Beavers wrote:

Teaching is a good example of where it's very difficult to measure performance. I don't think they're saying that you can't tell who's a good teacher, and who's a bad teacher, they're saying what's used to determine this is flawed. If they come up with a way to measure it, the only result will be that students will receive a lesser education. Anyone who actually thinks about many of the positions unions represent, and then think it's easy to measure their performance is kidding themselves.

We've all worked with a lame co-worker who doesn't do a very good job, but they look good in the eyes of the boss. They do this by playing up to the measurement devices the boss is using, but as a co-worker we have a different perspective on what they're not doing in regards to the 'team' aspects of the job.

mikepegg44

Go Beavers wrote:

Teaching is a good example of where it's very difficult to measure performance. I don't think they're saying that you can't tell who's a good teacher, and who's a bad teacher, they're saying what's used to determine this is flawed. If they come up with a way to measure it, the only result will be that students will receive a lesser education. Anyone who actually thinks about many of the positions unions represent, and then think it's easy to measure their performance is kidding themselves.

We've all worked with a lame co-worker who doesn't do a very good job, but they look good in the eyes of the boss. They do this by playing up to the measurement devices the boss is using, but as a co-worker we have a different perspective on what they're not doing in regards to the 'team' aspects of the job.

I would love you as my boss.

ROWE, results only work environment. This is a system of evaluation that works well in the public sector. A supervisor and their employees set out a list of goals and expectations together individually and as a team. At that point the employee is responsible to meet their criteria.
The system is wonderful.

with all the talk of fairness and everything else...do you think it is fair that an employees wages are capped because of the union? do you think it is fair that length of service is really the only deciding factor in how much a person is paid? Do you think it is fair that employees who go above and beyond cannot receive a raise or bonus for doing so? Length of service should not dictate if you keep your job, how much you are able to make, etc etc etc
if you think it isn't possible to evaluate each employee on their job skills and effectiveness then the conversation is over, but I suggest re-thinking that position with a little more cursory knowledge of the management experience in a union dictated workplace. If you are a manager or supervisor in a union work place, again I will echo my first comment, I would love you as my boss

polaris_x

cincybearcat wrote:

Nope, but you still evaluate their overall performance and they are paid accordingly. Anyone who thinks you can't evaluate someone's performance is kidding themselves.

Sure, lots of factors, and you take them all into account when evaluating performance. It's crazy to me that teachers have convinced people that you can't tell who is a good teacher and who is a bad teacher.

soo ... no actual rebuttal except no? ... haha

teachers are even more impossible ... what if their kids are malnourished or impoverished or abused ... what if they lack resources like books? ... everything is interconnected ...