last night's elections...
gimmesometruth27
St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,306
Looks like the voters in ohio slapped down the anti union law and mississippi voted down the personhood/anti-choice/anti-women's rights law. also, in arizona, the man who drafted the controversial immigration law got his butt recalled...
looks like the voters in these states are a little more moderate than what their leaders would have us believe...i think the lesson is right wing extremism is not going to be tolerated. nor will left wing extremism for that matter....
good on the people of these states.
funny thing is it was pointed out to me by a friend that boehner was all over twitter yesterday trying to get the people of ohio out to the polls, and as of 9 am central today there was not a peep from him...i am sure this result stings for him...
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ississippi
looks like the voters in these states are a little more moderate than what their leaders would have us believe...i think the lesson is right wing extremism is not going to be tolerated. nor will left wing extremism for that matter....
good on the people of these states.
funny thing is it was pointed out to me by a friend that boehner was all over twitter yesterday trying to get the people of ohio out to the polls, and as of 9 am central today there was not a peep from him...i am sure this result stings for him...
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ississippi
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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Just fascinating.
Really.
Hope this goes 100 pages...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Yes, yesterday was a good day at the polls! Gives me a little more hope for this country.
Alpine Valley Resort is etched in my brain!!!
Doesn't that seem fair?
why people think Unions don't need to be put in check in the public sector is beyond me...I would imagine it is because they don't have any direct experience with the unions and their positives and negatives. All public employee unions should have limits in place...why is that such a terrible thing?
Doesn't it seem rather strange to anyone that a Union can force you to pay through payroll deduction in public sector jobs, but that they can also seemingly give unchecked amounts of money to make sure the politicians that keep the gravy train running for the union officials. I realize that employees can choose to not work for the government because of this...but if the government wants the best and the brightest, they should definitely think about changing the money wasting union system.
I hadn't read too much about the abortion initiative but am always a little skeptical of anything called anti-abortion legislation...glad it was shot down, when things are painted as anti-abortion laws it directly or indirectly implies the other side is pro abortion. I hate that shit.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
It seems fair except the part about not having any negotiating rights
Performance based pay doesn't seem fair. Depending on the position, it's too hard to define and create a valid measurement device. It's a big can of crap when opened.
Key Arena - Nov 05, 2000
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 ... 83707.html
WASHINGTON -- Tuesday's elections saw big wins for progressives around the country, who blocked right-wing measures on issues of voting, labor, immigrant and women's rights.
"I think all around, heading into 2012, it's the strongest message we could possibly have that the other side has gone too far," said Justine Sarver, executive director of the Ballot Initiative Strategy Center, of Tuesday's results. She added that it was one of the best elections in recent years for progressive wins on ballot measures, which have traditionally been dominated by conservatives.
The most high-profile fight was in Ohio, where labor unions sought to repeal SB 5, a measure that restricted collective bargaining rights for more than 360,000 public employees, among other provisions.
Democrats, Republicans and independents joined together to deliver a "sharp rebuke" to Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R), whose first term has been defined by his support for SB 5. More than 60 percent of Ohio voters rejected Issue 2, which would have kept SB 5 in place.
A humbled Kasich held a press conference shortly after the fate of Issue 2 was sealed, saying it was time for him to take a "deep breath" and think about what to do next.
"When I say it is a time to pause, it is right now, on this issue," he said. "The people have spoken clearly. You don't ignore the public."
In Mississippi, voters rejected a far-reaching "personhood" amendment that would have declared a fertilized egg a legal person under the state Constitution, making it illegal for women in the state to use birth control, among other impacts.
The measure was so extreme that even strong pro-life advocates wavered in their support, with Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour (R) saying he wasn't sure if he was going to back it.
Maine voters reinstated the right to register to vote on Election Day, a law that had been in place for four decades until Gov. Paul LePage (R) signed legislation requiring voters to register at least two business days before an election. More than 60 percent of voters rejected the GOP-backed measure, arguing it would serve to depress voter turnout and hamper democracy.
At a more local level, residents of Traverse City, Mich. voted overwhelmingly to keep in place a non-discrimination ordinance prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Opponents of the ordinance argued that it singled out LGBT individuals for special protections.
Openly gay and lesbian candidates nationwide also scored big victories on Tuesday. At least 53 of the 75 candidates endorsed by the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund won their races. Indianapolis, Cincinnati and Charlotte, N.C. all made history by electing their first openly gay candidates to city council. In Virginia, meanwhile, "Adam Ebbin became the first openly gay person elected to the State Senate, and in New Jersey, Tim Eustace became the first non-incumbent openly gay candidate to win a seat in the State Assembly," Gay Politics reported.
In addition, two prominent Republican state lawmakers were voted out of office in recall elections. Arizona State Sen. Russell Pearce (R), the controversial architect of Arizona's immigration law, was defeated by Jerry Lewis, a fellow Republican who does not support the immigration crackdown. Pearce was the top Republican in the state Senate.
In Michigan, state Rep. Paul Scott (R) lost his seat in a close recall election. As chairman of the House Education Committee, Scott "was targeted by the Michigan Education Association for policies that weakened teacher tenure and cut education funding," according to the Associated Press. Republican lawmakers, Gov. Rick Snyder (R) and former D.C. schools chancellor Michelle Rhee, a Democrat who has battled teachers unions, all supported his policies.
While Mississippi voted down the "personhood" measure, the state did approve a proposed constitutional amendment that would require voters to show photo identification at the polls. Ohio voters also approved a largely symbolic measure meant to object to federal health care reform. The official language on the ballot said it would "preserve the freedom of Ohioans to choose their health care and health care coverage."
Republicans also gained seats in the Virginia legislature, and were "on the verge of taking over the Virginia Senate on Tuesday night and clinching control of all of state government for only the second time in more than a century." Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) said it was "a very good night for Republicans in Virginia."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
well speaking for someone who works in public health, the unions take away a lot from what we could accomplish. number one by saving jobs for people who are terrible at what they do. Some of you guys may work in unions, but AFSCME is the absolute worst. None of us are getting pay increases (which because of terrible monetary policy is actually a decrease) so that people who are terrible at their job, waste tax payer dollars through sheer lazy are able to skate by because it is next to impossible to fire anyone.
I may be making a grand assumption, but it seems to me that anyone who thinks performance based pay isn't possible clearly has never worked in management. ROWE ...look it up
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Huh? How do you measure success then? And how do you hold people accountable to do their job?
Has anyone ever applied for a job that didn't have a description of what you are supposed to do? This is a serious question.
performance is completely subjective and because not many people's jobs are done in isolation ... most people work environment where they are part of a team where their actions contribute to his/her departments objectives which contribute to the larger entity's objectives ...
the performance of another co-worker could directly impact anothers ... also, there are intangibles that don't get accounted for ... you could do all your work on time but maybe you are an asshole to everyone or just not pleasant to be around ... how do you measure that? ...
take mlb for example ... do we pay each players strictly on stats like hits, rbis, runs? ... some players get more rbis cuz the guys in front of him in the lineup get on more ... some players get more runs because guys behind them hit better ... also, how do you judge defense? ... how do you factor in leadership in the clubhouse and willingness to help other players?
Nope, but you still evaluate their overall performance and they are paid accordingly. Anyone who thinks you can't evaluate someone's performance is kidding themselves.
Sure, lots of factors, and you take them all into account when evaluating performance. It's crazy to me that teachers have convinced people that you can't tell who is a good teacher and who is a bad teacher.
Teaching is a good example of where it's very difficult to measure performance. I don't think they're saying that you can't tell who's a good teacher, and who's a bad teacher, they're saying what's used to determine this is flawed. If they come up with a way to measure it, the only result will be that students will receive a lesser education. Anyone who actually thinks about many of the positions unions represent, and then think it's easy to measure their performance is kidding themselves.
We've all worked with a lame co-worker who doesn't do a very good job, but they look good in the eyes of the boss. They do this by playing up to the measurement devices the boss is using, but as a co-worker we have a different perspective on what they're not doing in regards to the 'team' aspects of the job.
I don't think there's any one thing to measure that would give you the full picture, but there are very few jobs that could be assessed by just one measurement. You can look at a combination of things like how well the teacher's students perform on standardized tests compared to goals set by the school board, participation in any extracurricular activities, the teacher's attendance, classroom observations throughout the year, etc.
In my job right now, there aren't many things I can be evaluated on that have a numeric goal associated with them but I still am evaluated every year and my raise depends on how I perform.
I would love you as my boss.
ROWE, results only work environment. This is a system of evaluation that works well in the public sector. A supervisor and their employees set out a list of goals and expectations together individually and as a team. At that point the employee is responsible to meet their criteria.
The system is wonderful.
with all the talk of fairness and everything else...do you think it is fair that an employees wages are capped because of the union? do you think it is fair that length of service is really the only deciding factor in how much a person is paid? Do you think it is fair that employees who go above and beyond cannot receive a raise or bonus for doing so? Length of service should not dictate if you keep your job, how much you are able to make, etc etc etc
if you think it isn't possible to evaluate each employee on their job skills and effectiveness then the conversation is over, but I suggest re-thinking that position with a little more cursory knowledge of the management experience in a union dictated workplace. If you are a manager or supervisor in a union work place, again I will echo my first comment, I would love you as my boss
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
soo ... no actual rebuttal except no? ... haha
teachers are even more impossible ... what if their kids are malnourished or impoverished or abused ... what if they lack resources like books? ... everything is interconnected ...
I just want to be clear that he's not speaking for anyone who I know who works in public health, myself included.
can you honestly tell me with a straight face that you cannot evaluate a teacher's performance?
if your answer is that you cannot...the conversation is over...
and if your answer is that you can evaluate it, then the teacher should be rewarded for being exceptional, not put on a track that simply rewards years of service
I don't think any reasonable person would take student test scores as the only way to evaluate a teacher...and teachers aren't the only public employees
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Reminds me of a good article I read recently: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magaz ... wanted=all
Reminds me of a good cartoon I saw recently:
thanks for being clear on that. :roll:
I work in public health. I work in a union. I think I can speak for someone(ME) who works in public health and sees the union as a hindrance to what we can do...resources are a huge part of our budgets, and too many of them are sucked up by employees who don't care and are locked into there positions because the union protects them.
but again, thanks for being clear
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
what's with the black and white attitude? ... :P
it's not to say a teacher can not be evaluated - it's simply that there are many factors that contribute to a teacher's success ... you guys seem to think everything works in isolation and that evaluation is a simple matter ... i don't think a teacher should be compensated on strictly years of service either and i definitely feel like they should be held accountable ...
why don't you tell me how you would evaluate a teacher and we can go from there?
everyone in my fantasy league love that guy ... he'll always get picked above adp ... and basically for those reasons ...
This system is only wonderful in theory. There are way too many ways this system could go wrong.
I'll give you an short example from my own life: The evaluation system where I work is similar to this. I'm supposed to meet with my boss at the beginning of the year to assess what exactly my job is & set goals for the coming year. Then he's supposed to evaluate me at the end of the year on whether I met those goals.
But what happens every year is that, to begin with, we absolutely can't agree on what my job is. This is because he lives in an alternate reality that we call Larryworld. The evaluation system works such that it's my job to write what I do & how much time I spend in each area. But, even though I've been very careful to make sure my assessment is accurate, he doesn't like the looks of it on paper & tells me to change it every time to something he thinks will look better to the department, something that says I spend more time than I do on measurable money-making things.
So then he sets corresponding goals for me that I'm supposed to accomplish throughout the year. I try to change the nature of my job to match what he says it is, but he never lets me. He'll give me goal to complete some huge, lofty, time-consuming, unnecessary project - but then he comes into my office every single day & tells me to do more pressing things that have nothing to do with the project. Next thing you know, the whole year has passed & I've spent it doing my job - running our program - and not accomplished the projects he gave me. There's no possible way for me to do everything he wants unless they get me an assistant, but they won't. So I get a bad evaluation. From a man who has absolutely no idea how to do my job.
This is how this evaluation process frequently plays out for a lot of people. It has the potential to be good - in a perfect world. It sounds good when you hear the idea, looks good on paper. But in reality it's a fucking joke. And everyone knows it. Even though these annual evals are supposedly required, the Chair of our department (my boss's boss) told me to just stop doing them. We don't have time for them anyway; they just put us even further behind in our actual work.
I am not an educator. although I did stay and a holiday inn express last night...
It really isn't a black and white attitude. If you think a teacher can be evaluated they should be able to be rewarded for that with merit pay increases. I think there may be a misunderstanding with what I am talking about...if worker A makes 40,000 a year and does an exceptional job he/she would probably receive a step increase that is preset by the contract. if worker B makes 40,000 and does enough to not get fired, they will probably receive a step increase that is preset by the contract. that to me is an unfair situation that rewards mediocrity while giving little incentive to go above and beyond. In fact, good teachers would probably be pretty well paid versus their shitty counterparts if the union wage scale didn't exist.
I think that a teacher can be evaluated on effort, ability, and classroom demeanor, all which have nothing to do with students. Student evaluations can also be tied in, as well as peer evaluation inside a district. Preparation(found through random classroom visits from management), creativity in the classroom(teaching methods of a curriculum could be self reported by the teachers themselves), and results measured through student improvement (which can be found through a simple evaluation of a students knowledge level before the course and after it...not the grades the student receives...but if a student doesn't know 2+2=4 before a math class and knows 2+2 = 4 after it that is an improvement.
ALL jobs have outside factors that affect someones ability to do a job. Teachers aren't alone there. If I get one bad report from any of my clients that probably would affect my review much...but if there are a few, and it is a pattern...well then that is a problem and should affect my review.
there are a lot of ways to evaluate a teacher. Can every single situation always be prepared for...absolutely not...but someone who has their daughter get diagnosed with leukemia would probably perform terrible and all of that will be found out in a review....
anyone who thinks evaluation isn't possible should seriously check into the ROWE work environment. It is pretty awesome.
but again, teachers aren't the only public employees protected by a union.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
--How their students perform on standardized tests compared to the goals set forth by the school board (which can vary from one school district to another depending on past performance, resources, etc.)
--How the teacher is rated based on classroom evaluations by supervisors throughout the year
--Does the teacher participate in extracurricular activities for the school or otherwise take on additional duties or tasks beyond what is required?
--The teacher's own attendance (more important than it sounds since substitute teachers rarely do more than hand out busy work)
I mentioned all of these earlier and I'm sure there are other things that can be evaluated besides those, but it shows that there are ways to evaluate teachers beyond just how many kids get good grades. Different categories can be weighted differently so that those deemed more important have a greater impact on the overall evaluation and make it more fair for everyone.