Movements?

FiveB247x

Anyone who thinks the Occupy Wall Street or Tea Party is a real movement should wake up to reality. Movements take time, sometimes years to develop and gain power and success... something the US population does not have. Everything is instant gratification in our nation and that's something neither of these groups are willing to do. One side is very organized with leaders and very poor ideas and they're slowly fading from the political landscape; the other side is first starting a political group with no real leadership and an undefined mission. Both encapsulate their respective political leanings and parties but were simply fed up with the nonsense but mirror them both in the same notion and more importantly their same failures.

If you want to see real results in the US, start throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails, you'll upset the status quo and ruffle feathers. All this "change" through the political process, voting or sit-ins doesn't fix a damned thing, especially the corporate ownership and involvement in Washington. If you want to shut down Wall Street, burn it down, barricade it or shut it down to keep workers out - making signs and camping doesn't fix or force things to change. Paint outside the lines and you'll see change.

CAVSTARR313

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

FiveB247x

Yeah - we're all getting screwed. If you really want to "protest", stop the money train. Stop voting for the 2 major parties, don't contribute to their campaigns, stop buying products that corporations sell that promote the political leanings you do not agree with (which is almost all of them), and stop or consider not paying your taxes. We, the American citizens, enable it all to occur. Look at yourselves before pointing at everyone else... we're consumers first, and accountable citizens second.

Cavstarr313 wrote:

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Idris

FiveB247x wrote:

Yeah - we're all getting screwed. If you really want to "protest", stop the money train. Stop voting for the 2 major parties, don't contribute to their campaigns, stop buying products that corporations sell that promote the political leanings you do not agree with (which is almost all of them), and stop or consider not paying your taxes. We, the American citizens, enable it all to occur. Look at yourselves before pointing at everyone else... we're consumers first, and accountable citizens second.

Cavstarr313 wrote:

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

The fastest growing religion in the world, 'Consumerism'.

brianlux

350.org is most certainly a movement. It has been active for nearly 5 years starting with our first rally, “Step It Up” in which we asked congress to put into motion acts to cut carbon in the atmosphere. That campaign alone organized over 2,000 rallies (including the one in my little town) in all 50 states. And that was just the beginning. There have been several events since then all across the planet. These events may not have always received a huge media splash, but they have been recognized worldwide and leaders and policy makers have taken notice. Watch for the “Encircling the White House" event on November 6th, an effort to stop the planned Keystone XL pipeline that would carry dirty “tar sands” oil from Canada to the US. Check it out here:

http://www.350.org/

mikepegg44

FiveB247x wrote:

Anyone who thinks the Occupy Wall Street or Tea Party is a real movement should wake up to reality. Movements take time, sometimes years to develop and gain power and success... something the US population does not have. Everything is instant gratification in our nation and that's something neither of these groups are willing to do. One side is very organized with leaders and very poor ideas and they're slowly fading from the political landscape; the other side is first starting a political group with no real leadership and an undefined mission. Both encapsulate their respective political leanings and parties but were simply fed up with the nonsense but mirror them both in the same notion and more importantly their same failures.

If you want to see real results in the US, start throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails, you'll upset the status quo and ruffle feathers. All this "change" through the political process, voting or sit-ins doesn't fix a damned thing, especially the corporate ownership and involvement in Washington. If you want to shut down Wall Street, burn it down, barricade it or shut it down to keep workers out - making signs and camping doesn't fix or force things to change. Paint outside the lines and you'll see change.

by definition both of them are movements. there is no set period of time that it takes to become one...but I truly appreciate your wet blanket approach to enthusiasm for something.


definitions of the word movement:
Free Dictionary
A series of actions and events taking place over a period of time and working to foster a principle or policy: a movement toward world peace.
b. An organized effort by supporters of a common goal: a leader of the labor movement.
Webster's
b : a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end <the civil rights movement>

Movements all have beginnings

mickeyrat

I prefer the bowel kind. Thanks.

pandora

FiveB247x wrote:

Yeah - we're all getting screwed. If you really want to "protest", stop the money train. Stop voting for the 2 major parties, don't contribute to their campaigns, stop buying products that corporations sell that promote the political leanings you do not agree with (which is almost all of them), and stop or consider not paying your taxes. We, the American citizens, enable it all to occur. Look at yourselves before pointing at everyone else... we're consumers first, and accountable citizens second.

Cavstarr313 wrote:

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

this I can do ...
your op, if serious, I can not and hope not to see.

I feel there are these ways you stated here, at this point in time, that can make a change
and avoid violence for now.

_

Idris wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Yeah - we're all getting screwed. If you really want to "protest", stop the money train. Stop voting for the 2 major parties, don't contribute to their campaigns, stop buying products that corporations sell that promote the political leanings you do not agree with (which is almost all of them), and stop or consider not paying your taxes. We, the American citizens, enable it all to occur. Look at yourselves before pointing at everyone else... we're consumers first, and accountable citizens second.

Cavstarr313 wrote:

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

The fastest growing religion in the world, 'Consumerism'.

I agree, and I think this point underlined above is key. If people really mean business, we should demonstrate with our purchasing power. There must also be people to stay in the public eye & tell people WHY we've stopped purchasing from big corporations though. Personally, I totally support the OWS folks and appreciate what they're doing - whatever exactly that is.

FiveB247x

How can anyone truly support or appreciate what people are doing when you don't really know why they are there, what their goals and objectives are? Basically people are "rooting" for this group because they showed up.. which is a crazy notion.

_ wrote:

I agree, and I think this point underlined above is key. If people really mean business, we should demonstrate with our purchasing power. There must also be people to stay in the public eye & tell people WHY we've stopped purchasing from big corporations though. Personally, I totally support the OWS folks and appreciate what they're doing - whatever exactly that is.

brianlux

FiveB247x wrote:

How can anyone truly support or appreciate what people are doing when you don't really know why they are there, what their goals and objectives are? Basically people are "rooting" for this group because they showed up.. which is a crazy notion.

_ wrote:

I agree, and I think this point underlined above is key. If people really mean business, we should demonstrate with our purchasing power. There must also be people to stay in the public eye & tell people WHY we've stopped purchasing from big corporations though. Personally, I totally support the OWS folks and appreciate what they're doing - whatever exactly that is.

You really haven't noticed that some of us have pointedly stated our reason for supporting OWS? Or am I missing something here?

BinauralJam

mickeyrat wrote:

I prefer the bowel kind. Thanks.

Beat me to it!

Jeanwah

Written in the OWS thread:

I'd just like to point out that as long as we see differences in ourselves rather than similarities, we are our own greatest enemy. It's not the fault of gov't, corporations, or the Fed Reserve... it's WE THE PEOPLE screwing ourselves. All of you guys who put the protestors and the movement down? You all contribute to acceptance of the country AS IS, and we all KNOW it's fucked. But because you refuse to see the bigger picture, that we all should be ON THE SAME SIDE, instead of ridiculous bickering what's wrong with every social movement, we are screwing ourselves. So keep up the criticism...it's only getting us absolutely nowhere.

brianlux

Jeanwah wrote:

Written in the OWS thread:

I'd just like to point out that as long as we see differences in ourselves rather than similarities, we are our own greatest enemy. It's not the fault of gov't, corporations, or the Fed Reserve... it's WE THE PEOPLE screwing ourselves. All of you guys who put the protestors and the movement down? You all contribute to acceptance of the country AS IS, and we all KNOW it's fucked. But because you refuse to see the bigger picture, that we all should be ON THE SAME SIDE, instead of ridiculous bickering what's wrong with every social movement, we are screwing ourselves. So keep up the criticism...it's only getting us absolutely nowhere.

Seeing our similarities? Getting along? Be on the same side? These are revolutionary thoughts, Jeanwah. And ones that most of us could do well to remember, yours truly included. Thanks!

FiveB247x

Well the difference between your comments and my belief is that our nation and society will actually do something and follow through on it. I have very little faith in my fellow citizens to truly accomplish anything significant. I've posted lots bout it here. http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=138395

Jeanwah wrote:

Written in the OWS thread:

I'd just like to point out that as long as we see differences in ourselves rather than similarities, we are our own greatest enemy. It's not the fault of gov't, corporations, or the Fed Reserve... it's WE THE PEOPLE screwing ourselves. All of you guys who put the protestors and the movement down? You all contribute to acceptance of the country AS IS, and we all KNOW it's fucked. But because you refuse to see the bigger picture, that we all should be ON THE SAME SIDE, instead of ridiculous bickering what's wrong with every social movement, we are screwing ourselves. So keep up the criticism...it's only getting us absolutely nowhere.

Go Beavers

There's been a lot of protests over time that have made an impact. You just have to look for it.

brianlux

Jeanwah wrote:

Written in the OWS thread:

I'd just like to point out that as long as we see differences in ourselves rather than similarities, we are our own greatest enemy. It's not the fault of gov't, corporations, or the Fed Reserve... it's WE THE PEOPLE screwing ourselves. All of you guys who put the protestors and the movement down? You all contribute to acceptance of the country AS IS, and we all KNOW it's fucked. But because you refuse to see the bigger picture, that we all should be ON THE SAME SIDE, instead of ridiculous bickering what's wrong with every social movement, we are screwing ourselves. So keep up the criticism...it's only getting us absolutely nowhere.

Also written in OWS:
:thumbup:
I'm editing my thumbs up just a tad. I'm not sure how I to find useful that which I have in common with the very few who hold the power over us very many. But other than that, you are right Jeanwah- it should be about we the people. I doubt any of us here on AMT are corporate heads or powerful politicians so, in that sense, I totally agree with you. My generation for the most part failed at bringing about peace and love and justice and now a new breed of young people are working to create a fair and just world- things we would all benefit from. Change for the better is still possible. Reminds me of a line from an REM song: "Let's put our heads together/ and start a new country up."

I agree with you very much, we should all be on the same side. We would do well to look out for each other, take care of each other, wish each other well, and be compassionate. And really, for the most part, that is what happens here on the PJ forum. The outreach I've seen here (well, on All Encompassing anyway ) always gives me hope. There are a lot of very caring people here. Yes, let's see more of that on AMT.

pjhawks

Jeanwah wrote:

Written in the OWS thread:

I'd just like to point out that as long as we see differences in ourselves rather than similarities, we are our own greatest enemy. It's not the fault of gov't, corporations, or the Fed Reserve... it's WE THE PEOPLE screwing ourselves. All of you guys who put the protestors and the movement down? You all contribute to acceptance of the country AS IS, and we all KNOW it's fucked. But because you refuse to see the bigger picture, that we all should be ON THE SAME SIDE, instead of ridiculous bickering what's wrong with every social movement, we are screwing ourselves. So keep up the criticism...it's only getting us absolutely nowhere.

so only a certain dissenting opinion is allowed? so the protesters dissenting opinion is welcomed but those that question the why and how of the protesters movement should be silent? seems to be what you are advocating.

and i applaud the protesters for getting involved but to me they are involved in a movement with no cause or target. when a more certain cause or target is identified then maybe i'll join the movement.

brianlux

pjhawks wrote:

when a more certain cause or target is identified then maybe i'll join the movement.

Here's a fairly good overview from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wal ... _and_goals

Overview of goals
The protesters set up camp in Zuccotti Park. Locals and protesters call it "Liberty Plaza", the park's former name.Perceptions vary as to the specific goals of the movement.[24] According to Adbusters, a primary protest organizer, the central demand of the protest is that President Obama "ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington".[19] Liberal commentator Michael Moore had suggested that this is not like any other protest but this protest represents a variety of demands with a common statement about government corruption and the excessive influence of big business and the wealthiest 1% of Americans on U.S. laws and policies.[25] The belief is held by some protesters that the President has become irrelevant, stressing the importance for the 99% to lead and inspire change.

pjhawks

brianlux wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

when a more certain cause or target is identified then maybe i'll join the movement.

Here's a fairly good overview from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wal ... _and_goals

Overview of goals
The protesters set up camp in Zuccotti Park. Locals and protesters call it "Liberty Plaza", the park's former name.Perceptions vary as to the specific goals of the movement.[24] According to Adbusters, a primary protest organizer, the central demand of the protest is that President Obama "ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington".[19] Liberal commentator Michael Moore had suggested that this is not like any other protest but this protest represents a variety of demands with a common statement about government corruption and the excessive influence of big business and the wealthiest 1% of Americans on U.S. laws and policies.[25] The belief is held by some protesters that the President has become irrelevant, stressing the importance for the 99% to lead and inspire change.

wow a presidential commission? our record on government commissions (warren commision, 9/11 commission, etc.) is so stellar that is probably exactly what we need :roll: :roll: :roll:

brianlux

"The belief is held by some protesters that the President has become irrelevant, stressing the importance for the 99% to lead and inspire change."

That's the part I find interesting. Years ago I starting thinking- why a president? Why one person with so much power? Why not at least a committee if not "we the people". Looks that that might not have been such a far-fetched idea after all.

mikepegg44

brianlux wrote:

"The belief is held by some protesters that the President has become irrelevant, stressing the importance for the 99% to lead and inspire change."

That's the part I find interesting. Years ago I starting thinking- why a president? Why one person with so much power? Why not at least a committee if not "we the people". Looks that that might not have been such a far-fetched idea after all.

the executive branch really is a committee...i realize the president has the final say, but they rarely ever make decisions alone.

We also have an elected committee...it is called congress...do you really think they are any more efficient?

brianlux

mikepegg44 wrote:

We also have an elected committee...it is called congress...do you really think they are any more efficient?

Well...

Let's just have committes of people who truly represent the people then instead of corporations and let's hold those committees accountable. I think that's what much of the focus of OWS is about.

aerial

FiveB247x wrote:

Anyone who thinks the Occupy Wall Street or Tea Party is a real movement should wake up to reality. Movements take time, sometimes years to develop and gain power and success... something the US population does not have. Everything is instant gratification in our nation and that's something neither of these groups are willing to do. One side is very organized with leaders and very poor ideas and they're slowly fading from the political landscape; the other side is first starting a political group with no real leadership and an undefined mission. Both encapsulate their respective political leanings and parties but were simply fed up with the nonsense but mirror them both in the same notion and more importantly their same failures.

If you want to see real results in the US, start throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails, you'll upset the status quo and ruffle feathers. All this "change" through the political process, voting or sit-ins doesn't fix a damned thing, especially the corporate ownership and involvement in Washington. If you want to shut down Wall Street, burn it down, barricade it or shut it down to keep workers out - making signs and camping doesn't fix or force things to change. Paint outside the lines and you'll see change.

Why are you inciting violence? The Tea Party has made a small difference by trying to vote out the lifer politicians. We do it will out violence.

inlet13

FiveB247x wrote:

Anyone who thinks the Occupy Wall Street or Tea Party is a real movement should wake up to reality. Movements take time, sometimes years to develop and gain power and success... something the US population does not have. Everything is instant gratification in our nation and that's something neither of these groups are willing to do. One side is very organized with leaders and very poor ideas and they're slowly fading from the political landscape; the other side is first starting a political group with no real leadership and an undefined mission. Both encapsulate their respective political leanings and parties but were simply fed up with the nonsense but mirror them both in the same notion and more importantly their same failures.

If you want to see real results in the US, start throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails, you'll upset the status quo and ruffle feathers. All this "change" through the political process, voting or sit-ins doesn't fix a damned thing, especially the corporate ownership and involvement in Washington. If you want to shut down Wall Street, burn it down, barricade it or shut it down to keep workers out - making signs and camping doesn't fix or force things to change. Paint outside the lines and you'll see change.

Seems to me that you are trying to say that people should get violent. I can't believe there hasn't been more posts on both sides of this issue condemning this sort of rhetoric.

FiveB247x

There's one main reason why I say violence should be used, and that is because our nation is full of people who do nothing but sit on their hands and tune out. I hear a lot of talk about change but see nothing changing. Voting means very little in our system, campaigns, lobbying and leadership are all bought and sold. We the people is an archaic thought simply because there is no "we" (everyone is polarized or ostracized). Administrations and representatives come and go, and guess what, all the main areas that influence life as we know it, remain the same (or get worse). And to be clear, there are ways to cause violence without hurting others (Earth Liberation Front for example). People in our society think there has to be a decent or fair way to protest which accommodates the rest of society around them...this is an insane idea. Do you think revolutions occur because you play by the rules or within the system? The clear answer is no. There are different levels and examples which may or may not include direct violence, but to simply think people have to protest in a specific regimented way in order to appease the status quo is silly. If people did that, nothing would ever change.

Sea

inciting violence...
thread closed