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Ontario Election

polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
edited October 2011 in A Moving Train
clearly an indictment of Rob Ford in Toronto and to a lesser degree Harper across Canada ...

Howarth riding the coat tails of Layton but very undeserving and unpolished ... this was Hudak's election to lose ... wonder how much Ford's BBQ came back to bite him in the ass ...

interesting in that the globe endorsed liberals ... and the sun abstained ...
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • dignindignin Posts: 9,338
    Ontario trying to make up for giving Harper his majority? ;)
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    dignin wrote:
    Ontario trying to make up for giving Harper his majority? ;)

    can never make up for that! ...
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Minority!!!! or at least that's what Global proclaimed a little after midnight.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Just taking a quick look at the election map of how the seats went...it looks like an extremely divided province...it seems the liberals got the urban vote, the PC's the rural and the NDP dominated the north...shall be interesting times.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Voter turnout hits dispiriting low in Ontario

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le2194221/

    Not surprising...to me this is good news...it means 52% of us no longer play the game...as George Carlin said "the game is rigged and you can"t win".
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yeah ... minority ... i think all things being equal ... a good outcome for ontario ...

    this was hudak's election to lose and i think he can thank rob ford for that ... and to a lesser degree harper ... ontario has traditionally voted opposite of federal but i think if it wasn't for ford ... hudak wins at least a minority ...
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Rae, Harris and McGuinty all lost their first campaign as leaders of their respective parties...I highly doubt doubt Hudak ever had a big lead. All this election did was divide the province...McGuinty represents the urban vote and Hudak represents the rural vote and Horwath in the north with a few seats scattered elsewhere.

    I am interested to see now McGuinty is going to listen to the about these fuckin eye sore turbines and solar farms...if not...then it could be minority for a while.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Rae, Harris and McGuinty all lost their first campaign as leaders of their respective parties...I highly doubt doubt Hudak ever had a big lead. All this election did was divide the province...McGuinty represents the urban vote and Hudak represents the rural vote and Horwath in the north with a few seats scattered elsewhere.

    I am interested to see now McGuinty is going to listen to the about these fuckin eye sore turbines and solar farms...if not...then it could be minority for a while.

    hudak's campaign in it of itself was horrible ... making promises he obviously couldn't keep which is the conservative play book and should have worked ... but the anti-ford got him in toronto for sure ...

    you have to look at the map more clearly ... ya ... ndp got the north but they look big because of their size ... they won 6 of their 17 seats in Toronto and the rest in Hamilton, London and Windsor ...

    the wind farms and the solar farms are a good thing ... you know what are real fucking eye sores ... walmarts, costco and all those fucking big box concrete power centres ...
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Rae, Harris and McGuinty all lost their first campaign as leaders of their respective parties...I highly doubt doubt Hudak ever had a big lead. All this election did was divide the province...McGuinty represents the urban vote and Hudak represents the rural vote and Horwath in the north with a few seats scattered elsewhere.

    I am interested to see now McGuinty is going to listen to the about these fuckin eye sore turbines and solar farms...if not...then it could be minority for a while.

    hudak's campaign in it of itself was horrible ... making promises he obviously couldn't keep which is the conservative play book and should have worked ... but the anti-ford got him in toronto for sure ...

    you have to look at the map more clearly ... ya ... ndp got the north but they look big because of their size ... they won 6 of their 17 seats in Toronto and the rest in Hamilton, London and Windsor ...

    the wind farms and the solar farms are a good thing ... you know what are real fucking eye sores ... walmarts, costco and all those fucking big box concrete power centres ...

    Let me clear this up, I'm not against wind or solar power, as far as rural voters are concerned it was poorly planned. There is one particular community in Lakeshore where they put a solar farm backing up to these folks backyard yards.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5MA6p024M0

    But people in Oakville or Mississauga get all in in ups over a natural gas energy plant McGuilty cancels them knowing it will cost him 2 seats.

    They tried putting wind farms in Lake Erie right in the path of migratory birds...Migratory birds fly over the lake at night as to avoid predators...only to be turned into salad by windmills...

    Sorry if I owned a 250000 dollar home the last thing I'd want to be staring at is a solar farm or or windmills.

    Why didn't the government place these windmills north of highway 11 on the 1000's of acres of crown land?

    Yup us rural folk don't count...no consultations have to be held before more windmills are built...that's bullshit!!!!

    I really don't know what Wal Mart and Costco has to do with this...are they the only one burning power...how many of those office buildings in the cities leave lights on unnecessarily, computers on, etc.

    The Wall Mart I visit is not very cool in the summer, which tells me they don't have the air set too cold...they turn lights off during peek power times...supposedly they got some of the most fuel efficient semi's in business.

    How about the government, school boards etc. I work in a school, teachers hardly ever turn off lights, never turn computers, photo copiers, fax machines etc.. Wal Mart and Costco are kinda a weak arguments.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,338
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Rae, Harris and McGuinty all lost their first campaign as leaders of their respective parties...I highly doubt doubt Hudak ever had a big lead. All this election did was divide the province...McGuinty represents the urban vote and Hudak represents the rural vote and Horwath in the north with a few seats scattered elsewhere.

    I am interested to see now McGuinty is going to listen to the about these fuckin eye sore turbines and solar farms...if not...then it could be minority for a while.

    hudak's campaign in it of itself was horrible ... making promises he obviously couldn't keep which is the conservative play book and should have worked ... but the anti-ford got him in toronto for sure ...

    you have to look at the map more clearly ... ya ... ndp got the north but they look big because of their size ... they won 6 of their 17 seats in Toronto and the rest in Hamilton, London and Windsor ...

    the wind farms and the solar farms are a good thing ... you know what are real fucking eye sores ... walmarts, costco and all those fucking big box concrete power centres ...

    Couldn't agree more, my occupation is building wind turbines here in southern Alberta by the way....so yes I'm very biased. How did Toronto elect that piece of shit Ford anyways? And us rednecks ;) elect Nenshi, did hell really freeze over?
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Let me clear this up, I'm not against wind or solar power, as far as rural voters are concerned it was poorly planned. There is one particular community in Lakeshore where they put a solar farm backing up to these folks backyard yards.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5MA6p024M0

    But people in Oakville or Mississauga get all in in ups over a natural gas energy plant McGuilty cancels them knowing it will cost him 2 seats.

    They tried putting wind farms in Lake Erie right in the path of migratory birds...Migratory birds fly over the lake at night as to avoid predators...only to be turned into salad by windmills...

    Sorry if I owned a 250000 dollar home the last thing I'd want to be staring at is a solar farm or or windmills.

    Why didn't the government place these windmills north of highway 11 on the 1000's of acres of crown land?

    Yup us rural folk don't count...no consultations have to be held before more windmills are built...that's bullshit!!!!

    I really don't know what Wal Mart and Costco has to do with this...are they the only one burning power...how many of those office buildings in the cities leave lights on unnecessarily, computers on, etc.

    The Wall Mart I visit is not very cool in the summer, which tells me they don't have the air set too cold...they turn lights off during peek power times...supposedly they got some of the most fuel efficient semi's in business.

    How about the government, school boards etc. I work in a school, teachers hardly ever turn off lights, never turn computers, photo copiers, fax machines etc.. Wal Mart and Costco are kinda a weak arguments.

    you said eye sores ... i'm telling you what I consider eye sores ... i didn't mention consumption at all ...

    the fact of the matter is for wind farms and solar farms ... you have to put them where they make the most sense ... like where there is wind! ... the farmers who's getting money from it doesn't seem to mind ...

    have you been to california? ... they have a plethora of wind farms ... the studies on birds and wind sickness and whatever bs reason against wind farms are a joke ...
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    dignin wrote:
    Couldn't agree more, my occupation is building wind turbines here in southern Alberta by the way....so yes I'm very biased. How did Toronto elect that piece of shit Ford anyways? And us rednecks ;) elect Nenshi, did hell really freeze over?

    for the same reason we have a harper gov't ... the right wing all vote a certain way regardless of information ... the dude made promises he couldn't keep and people ate it up ... the same people don't like looking at facts ...
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    dignin wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Rae, Harris and McGuinty all lost their first campaign as leaders of their respective parties...I highly doubt doubt Hudak ever had a big lead. All this election did was divide the province...McGuinty represents the urban vote and Hudak represents the rural vote and Horwath in the north with a few seats scattered elsewhere.

    I am interested to see now McGuinty is going to listen to the about these fuckin eye sore turbines and solar farms...if not...then it could be minority for a while.

    hudak's campaign in it of itself was horrible ... making promises he obviously couldn't keep which is the conservative play book and should have worked ... but the anti-ford got him in toronto for sure ...

    you have to look at the map more clearly ... ya ... ndp got the north but they look big because of their size ... they won 6 of their 17 seats in Toronto and the rest in Hamilton, London and Windsor ...

    the wind farms and the solar farms are a good thing ... you know what are real fucking eye sores ... walmarts, costco and all those fucking big box concrete power centres ...

    Couldn't agree more, my occupation is building wind turbines here in southern Alberta by the way....so yes I'm very biased. How did Toronto elect that piece of shit Ford anyways? And us rednecks ;) elect Nenshi, did hell really freeze over?

    actually ford won not because of the downtown core but more based on the suburbs. the suburbs hated the last mayor and saw him as being too downtown focus.
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Voter turnout hits dispiriting low in Ontario

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le2194221/

    Not surprising...to me this is good news...it means 52% of us no longer play the game...as George Carlin said "the game is rigged and you can"t win".

    i don't think its has anything to do with "no longer playing the game" i think its speaks more to the leaders and the boring campaign. no-one was really interested
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,338
    lukin2006 wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Rae, Harris and McGuinty all lost their first campaign as leaders of their respective parties...I highly doubt doubt Hudak ever had a big lead. All this election did was divide the province...McGuinty represents the urban vote and Hudak represents the rural vote and Horwath in the north with a few seats scattered elsewhere.

    I am interested to see now McGuinty is going to listen to the about these fuckin eye sore turbines and solar farms...if not...then it could be minority for a while.

    hudak's campaign in it of itself was horrible ... making promises he obviously couldn't keep which is the conservative play book and should have worked ... but the anti-ford got him in toronto for sure ...

    you have to look at the map more clearly ... ya ... ndp got the north but they look big because of their size ... they won 6 of their 17 seats in Toronto and the rest in Hamilton, London and Windsor ...

    the wind farms and the solar farms are a good thing ... you know what are real fucking eye sores ... walmarts, costco and all those fucking big box concrete power centres ...

    Let me clear this up, I'm not against wind or solar power, as far as rural voters are concerned it was poorly planned. There is one particular community in Lakeshore where they put a solar farm backing up to these folks backyard yards.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5MA6p024M0

    But people in Oakville or Mississauga get all in in ups over a natural gas energy plant McGuilty cancels them knowing it will cost him 2 seats.

    They tried putting wind farms in Lake Erie right in the path of migratory birds...Migratory birds fly over the lake at night as to avoid predators...only to be turned into salad by windmills...

    Sorry if I owned a 250000 dollar home the last thing I'd want to be staring at is a solar farm or or windmills.

    Why didn't the government place these windmills north of highway 11 on the 1000's of acres of crown land?

    Yup us rural folk don't count...no consultations have to be held before more windmills are built...that's bullshit!!!!

    I really don't know what Wal Mart and Costco has to do with this...are they the only one burning power...how many of those office buildings in the cities leave lights on unnecessarily, computers on, etc.

    The Wall Mart I visit is not very cool in the summer, which tells me they don't have the air set too cold...they turn lights off during peek power times...supposedly they got some of the most fuel efficient semi's in business.

    How about the government, school boards etc. I work in a school, teachers hardly ever turn off lights, never turn computers, photo copiers, fax machines etc.. Wal Mart and Costco are kinda a weak arguments.

    Migratory birds fly around, over and through the wind farms...they are not as stupid as you might think. I have seen this with my own eyes and have yet to see one get killed. I have heard they do but I still have not seen it yet. Stats shows that exponentialy more birds are killed by cars. They build turbines in places not on a whim like you imply, but after years of research (for the best wind).....and yes consultation with public. Some projects (wind farms) being held up for years...or not going ahead at all because they cannot satisfy the landowners concerns. Most people complaining about turbines near their homes are pissed because they are not built on their land so they recieve no lease money (I have seen this first hand dealing with landowners and their neighbors during construction).
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    dignin wrote:
    Couldn't agree more, my occupation is building wind turbines here in southern Alberta by the way....so yes I'm very biased. How did Toronto elect that piece of shit Ford anyways? And us rednecks ;) elect Nenshi, did hell really freeze over?

    for the same reason we have a harper gov't ... the right wing all vote a certain way regardless of information ... the dude made promises he couldn't keep and people ate it up ... the same people don't like looking at facts ...

    I never said anything about wind sickness...I know someone with a small bird sanctuary near lake erie and where the turbines were planned was right in the path of migratory birds...they fly over lakes at night to avoid predators...I'll take his word over it than any study, or any suit from Toronto.

    I've been up along highway 11, they have wind their as well, know fellows who hunt up that way they've seen some windy days there.

    It's funny thouht...it seems the most humid days...the wind doesn't blow that much...especially here in southern Ontario...power consumption is usually at its highest when it's humid.

    Heck the McGuilty government's plan is so solid where paying the US and Quebec to take excess hydro off our hands.

    http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/ ... /20110124/

    Yup well thought out plan...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    fife wrote:
    i don't think its has anything to do with "no longer playing the game" i think its speaks more to the leaders and the boring campaign. no-one was really interested

    anyone know if there is a voter turnout by riding? ... a quick google search did not bring up anything ...
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    dignin wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    hudak's campaign in it of itself was horrible ... making promises he obviously couldn't keep which is the conservative play book and should have worked ... but the anti-ford got him in toronto for sure ...

    you have to look at the map more clearly ... ya ... ndp got the north but they look big because of their size ... they won 6 of their 17 seats in Toronto and the rest in Hamilton, London and Windsor ...

    the wind farms and the solar farms are a good thing ... you know what are real fucking eye sores ... walmarts, costco and all those fucking big box concrete power centres ...

    Let me clear this up, I'm not against wind or solar power, as far as rural voters are concerned it was poorly planned. There is one particular community in Lakeshore where they put a solar farm backing up to these folks backyard yards.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5MA6p024M0

    But people in Oakville or Mississauga get all in in ups over a natural gas energy plant McGuilty cancels them knowing it will cost him 2 seats.

    They tried putting wind farms in Lake Erie right in the path of migratory birds...Migratory birds fly over the lake at night as to avoid predators...only to be turned into salad by windmills...

    Sorry if I owned a 250000 dollar home the last thing I'd want to be staring at is a solar farm or or windmills.

    Why didn't the government place these windmills north of highway 11 on the 1000's of acres of crown land?

    Yup us rural folk don't count...no consultations have to be held before more windmills are built...that's bullshit!!!!

    I really don't know what Wal Mart and Costco has to do with this...are they the only one burning power...how many of those office buildings in the cities leave lights on unnecessarily, computers on, etc.

    The Wall Mart I visit is not very cool in the summer, which tells me they don't have the air set too cold...they turn lights off during peek power times...supposedly they got some of the most fuel efficient semi's in business.

    How about the government, school boards etc. I work in a school, teachers hardly ever turn off lights, never turn computers, photo copiers, fax machines etc.. Wal Mart and Costco are kinda a weak arguments.

    Migratory birds fly around, over and through the wind farms...they are not as stupid as you might think. I have seen this with my own eyes and have yet to see one get killed. I have heard they do but I still have not seen it yet. Stats shows that exponentialy more birds are killed by cars. They build turbines in places not on a whim like you imply, but after years of research (for the best wind).....and yes consultation with public. Some projects (wind farms) being held up for years...or not going ahead at all because they cannot satisfy the landowners concerns. Most people complaining about turbines near their homes are pissed because they are not built on their land so they recieve no lease money (I have seen this first hand dealing with landowners and their neighbors during construction).

    Actually they fly at night over the lakes...and where they proposed the wind farm was in their migratory path...which is why the windfarms never got built on lake Erie. I know their not stupid...but migratory birds generally follow a set path and this windfarm would have been in their flight path. I have know idea what type of night vision birds have...maybe very good.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    fife wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Voter turnout hits dispiriting low in Ontario

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le2194221/

    Not surprising...to me this is good news...it means 52% of us no longer play the game...as George Carlin said "the game is rigged and you can"t win".

    i don't think its has anything to do with "no longer playing the game" i think its speaks more to the leaders and the boring campaign. no-one was really interested

    You sure about?? Voter turnout seems to keep going down...52%...4 years ago...48%this election...it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that know 1 believes politicians, thinks they are all crooks, corrupt and liars...which in my opinion they...I had no horse in the race...I don't trust any of them...I am satisfied with a minority...personally since I work in the public and the NDP hold the balance of power it's unlikely my wages will be frozen as both McGuinty and Hudak have talked about. So in that sense it's a win...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,338
    lukin2006 wrote:
    fife wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Voter turnout hits dispiriting low in Ontario

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le2194221/

    Not surprising...to me this is good news...it means 52% of us no longer play the game...as George Carlin said "the game is rigged and you can"t win".

    i don't think its has anything to do with "no longer playing the game" i think its speaks more to the leaders and the boring campaign. no-one was really interested

    You sure about?? Voter turnout seems to keep going down...52%...4 years ago...48%this election...it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that know 1 believes politicians, thinks they are all crooks, corrupt and liars...which in my opinion they...I had no horse in the race...I don't trust any of them...

    This is a hard one, I think you're both right but I do think its mostly apathy.....nobody gives a shit because they think that no matter who gets in there going to get fucked by corrupt politicians.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    dignin wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    fife wrote:

    i don't think its has anything to do with "no longer playing the game" i think its speaks more to the leaders and the boring campaign. no-one was really interested

    You sure about?? Voter turnout seems to keep going down...52%...4 years ago...48%this election...it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that know 1 believes politicians, thinks they are all crooks, corrupt and liars...which in my opinion they...I had no horse in the race...I don't trust any of them...

    This is a hard one, I think you're both right but I do think its mostly apathy.....nobody gives a shit because they think that no matter who gets in there going to get fucked by corrupt politicians.

    I agree with you...but I prefer to call it not playing the game...they all are corrupt liars.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    The provincial election in Ontario on Thursday saw its lowest voter turnout since 1975, and marked the first time since then that fewer than half of eligible voters participated.

    Elections Ontario said Friday there was a voter turnout of 49.2 per cent in this election, which saw Premier Dalton McGuinty's Liberals returned to power for a third time, albeit reduced to a minority.

    Voter turnout in Ontario has been on a downward trend for the past several elections. The previous vote in 2007 resulted in 52.1 per cent of eligible voters casting a ballot. That was down from 56.8 per cent in 2003, 58.3 per cent in 1999, 62.9 per cent in 1995 and 64.4 per cent in 1990.

    Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Ontario+elec ... z1a7PylOyw
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    dignin wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    fife wrote:

    i don't think its has anything to do with "no longer playing the game" i think its speaks more to the leaders and the boring campaign. no-one was really interested

    You sure about?? Voter turnout seems to keep going down...52%...4 years ago...48%this election...it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that know 1 believes politicians, thinks they are all crooks, corrupt and liars...which in my opinion they...I had no horse in the race...I don't trust any of them...

    This is a hard one, I think you're both right but I do think its mostly apathy.....nobody gives a shit because they think that no matter who gets in there going to get fucked by corrupt politicians.

    Which I always thought was a horseshit excuse from lazy people. I mean seriously even if you believe all the major parties in the running were totally corrupt, if that other 48% of voters did show up it would pretty much be any party's election to win or lose.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    dignin wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:

    You sure about?? Voter turnout seems to keep going down...52%...4 years ago...48%this election...it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that know 1 believes politicians, thinks they are all crooks, corrupt and liars...which in my opinion they...I had no horse in the race...I don't trust any of them...

    This is a hard one, I think you're both right but I do think its mostly apathy.....nobody gives a shit because they think that no matter who gets in there going to get fucked by corrupt politicians.

    Which I always thought was a horseshit excuse from lazy people. I mean seriously even if you believe all the major parties in the running were totally corrupt, if that other 48% of voters did show up it would pretty much be any party's election to win or lose.

    Voter turnout has been going down since 1990 in Ontario...whether it's apathy or people like me who figure the game is rigged doubt it's going to change...maybe stabilize...but then again with the possibility of another Ontario election in the next 2 years maybe Ontarian's are suffering from voter fatigue with so many federal elections.

    Maybe public consultations should held to find out why voter turn out is so low...but somehow I suspect the corrupt politicians wouldn't want to know that their behaviour is responsible.

    Maybe it is time for electoral reform...I don't know...I think the issue is worth looking into.

    Personally myself...I sure as hell ain't gonna waste my time casting a ballot when I know they are just saying 1 thing and planning something different.

    Want me to vote....add a spot on the ballot for none of the above and count those votes and report those votes and I'd be first in line.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
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