What if America truly were a Christian nation?
arq
Posts: 8,049
When people says proudly the USA is a xtian nation what they mean?
http://www.sj-r.com/features/x146178833 ... Christians
What if America truly were a Christian nation?
Not a Southern Baptist nation, or an Episcopal nation, or a Roman Catholic nation. Not grounded in the doctrinal and ecclesiastical isms that have grown up over the centuries. But a Christian nation, doing what Jesus did.
Well, we wouldn’t be arguing about sex, that’s for sure. Jesus devoted no time to matters of sexuality.
We wouldn’t be leading cheers for any particular economic system, capitalist or socialist, for in his many teachings about wealth and power, Jesus saw both as snares and delusions.
We wouldn’t be taking votes on who gets medical care, or who gets to live, or who gets to learn, or whose rights matter more, or whose race or religion can’t be allowed to breathe freely. For Jesus gave healing to all who asked, defended the lives of sinners, taught all who were eager to learn, welcomed all to his circle — even outcasts, lepers and children. He had no regard for his own tradition’s finely tuned boundaries.
We wouldn’t be loading great wealth onto the already wealthy, but rather would be asking them to follow the lead of biblical tax collector Zacchaeus and to give away half of what they have.
We wouldn’t need as many lawyers, because generosity would trump tax-reduction strategies, parables would trump rules, property would be shared as needed and people would be forgiving — not suing — each other.
If we were a genuinely Christian nation, we would be gathering the harvest of this abundant land and sharing it with the hungry of our own land and of many lands. We would forgive our enemies, speak truth to power and go forth to serve and to sacrifice, not to rule.
We would stand with the poor when predators circled around them. We would stand with sinners when the self-righteous picked up stones. We would join hands with nonconformists and strangers.
We would become God’s beacon to the nations. And when the tired and poor followed that light to our borders, we would greet them with open arms and make room for them in our communities.
That’s what Jesus did, and that is what it would mean to be a Christian nation.
So to those who insist that America be a Christian nation, I ask: Is this truly what you want? Do you want the I-was-hungry-and-you-gave-me-something-to-eat of Matthew 25? Do you want the
Sermon on the Mount? Do you want to shine God’s light in the darkness?
Your behavior says no.
Your shouts against generosity say no.
Your penchant for oppressive culture says no.
Your willingness to shower wealth on the few while the many suffer says no.
Your hostility to freedom says no.
So stop pretending. At least be as honest as the hedge fund manager who paid himself $8 billion last year. It’s “all about the Benjamins,” not the Gospel. It’s about stifling any freedom but your own. It’s about imposing your cultural preferences on others. It’s about turning your fears and appetites into law. It’s about you, not about Jesus Christ.
That’s the nature of politics, of course: one “you” versus another “you.” That’s fine, and it’s why we formed a democracy, so that our various interests could compete fairly. Just spare us the religious posturing.
If America became a Christian nation, doing what Jesus did, you would be aghast.
http://www.sj-r.com/features/x146178833 ... Christians
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
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Comments
I am confused by this. Who exactly is hostile to freedom? who shouts against generosity? Who exactly showers wealth on the few while the many "suffer"? Who exactly is oppressed? and since we have a penchant for oppression, who else is?
There are many people who are "good" people in the US, I would say the vast majority, so who exactly is this article focused on?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
The Tea Party?
Hail, Hail!!!
which tea party organization is against Generosity?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't know... the ones that are always harping against poor people on welfare?
Hail, Hail!!!
that isn't the same as being against generosity.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Generosity... is that similar to Charity? Or is charity restricted to only people you like?
Hail, Hail!!!
I didn't realize that being generous was the same as being forced to give more of your income to a government. Maybe that is the biggest difference between someone like me and someone who is in favor of a more liberal spending federal government. I hadn't thought of that, but it certainly could be that many people look at taxes as charity. Personally I give my time and money, but since I would say I like some of what the tea party ideals stand for, that means I am against generosity...
Being for the government taking more of someone else's money is not being generous.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
BUT... if we WERE a Christian Nation and followed the teaching of Jesus Christ, wouldn't the need for the government to take care of the poorest amongst us go away because as Christians... following Christ's lead... we would take care of the poorest amongst us ourselves.. through our own generosity... and not leave it up to the government?
I believe that is one reason why the original author stated, we are NOT a Christian Nation.
Hail, Hail!!!
I mean, technically we are not a christian nation, we have secular government...but we are a nation that is full of christians. But simply stated, government welfare =/= generosity. Not even close. I consider myself to be pretty damn generous, don't really consider myself christian...but through my time of volunteering and through the organizations I have dealt with at my job, I would say the silent majority of christians who may even be right wing are VERY generous...don't you think it could be said that being against government welfare does not mean you are against generosity? And if you are against the government forcing "charity", does that make you less christian?
edit: I see the point of the article, and to me it is a gross generalization that the writer imposes his own beliefs on the right wing and what they stand for...forced generosity isn't christian either...Free will is a bitch, but that is a big piece of being christian....and the idea that the right is any more hostile to freedom than the left is laughable...
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
When I look up the word, 'generosity'... I never come across the term, 'government'.
You keep trying to make a connection that I am not stating. You are the one making them synonymous, not me.
So... to re-state... we would not NEED government welfare... IF Christian generosity kicked in and WE (the people) took care of our poor... ourselves.
If we WERE a Christian Nation... there would not be the need for Government Welfare because WE would be taking care of the poor... just like Jesus teaches us.
Hail, Hail!!!
right, I agree with you, but that isn't the authors point...he implies that we are not a christian nation because people are "shouting against generosity"...I don't remember hearing about any religious or christian group talking about how they are against giving and helping the truly less fortunate...so it would appear that the author of the article literally equates being against government welfare to shouting against generosity, wouldn't you say?
I also don't remember any christian fundraisers for the rich...so the showering them with wealth comment was rather strange.
So no, we are not a christian nation, I think that is quite true, however we certainly are a nation that has milions of christians. But that I don't think that was the point of the article...the way I took it was to mean that the people who talk about wanting to be a more christian nation wouldn't want it to actually be that way considering all of the things he listed. Does that make sense...that might be why we are at odds here, seems like we are kind of arguing two similar but different points.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Well, from what I gathered, the point of the article was directed towards the segment of the population that says, 'America is a Christian Nation'... not secular Joe's like you and me.
And yes... we are a majority Christian population... but, we sure don't act very 'Christ-like'... in regards to the poor... war... forgiveness... tolerance. If anything, I beleive we act more like Rome during Christ's time.
That was the overall message I got from his article.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think you guys are onto the same thing here, but Cosmo I think the conclusion you're saying that the article is drawing is actually just its mechanism/argument for drawing a further conclusion. Namely, that the nonsecular people to whom it is addressed (i.e., those who supposedly want the US to be a "Christian nation") don't really understand what they're asking for.
The other underlying implication of the article (which is a point I don't think it was explicitly trying to make) is that many/most Christians don't do a good job of exemplifying anything Christ-like. With that I would mostly agree.
edit: I think this last sentence in the article clarifies its point pretty well -- basically, if the folks that wanted the US to be a Christian nation got what they wanted, in the end it wouldn't look like they were imagining.
Mikepegg blew that up by pointing out the central fallacy of the article -- namely, the assumption that only via goverment-mandated programs can we be "Christ-like", i.e., generous, unoppressive, etc.
I thought it might have been something as simple as arguing two very similar but different topics.
to be honest, I don't even think Christ would be a christian circa 2011 American religious right...
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Yes. That is what I gather. That by making America a 'Christian Nation', we become a Theocracy... the mirror image of the Islamic Theocracies we find in the Middle East.
And yes... that is not the best article on the subject... but, the overall message is, 'Be careful what you wish for'.
Hail, Hail!!!
For the record, most Christians I know (and I know a LOT) don't want a state-mandated religion (Christian or otherwise). Their notion of a "Christian nation" is in wanting some Federal decisions to be rooted in the teachings of Christ. It's a fine line, I realize, but I thought the distinction should be made, at least to stay in keeping with the article in the OP.
Jesus is and was a Jew. He was herding the Jews back to the basic of the Jewish faith, instead of the Temple heirarchy who had gained great wealth and power.
I believe that many Christians give Christianity a black eye and would be doing Jesus great service by reading and living by His Sermon of the Mount.
Hail, Hail!!!
Your poor dog is probably wicked confused.
this thread has me feeling extra generous, you absolutely can come over to my baby farm and pick one out.
careful though, the one to the right bites hard.
to answer your question though, she loves to go kick the dogs out of their rooms and climbs right in...even shuts the door behind her and she just sits in there until I notice and laugh...she is quite the ham for 14 months.
She only really likes two things...shoes and dog kennels...I fear where that may lead her in life
anyway thanks for the kind words!
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Definately a dig to the 'Creationists' and the sort.
There is nothing wrong with being 'Christ-like' in nature. That is what the article states... that if people acted more Christ-like... we could be considered a Christian Nation. The reality being, we don't act Christ-like... therefore, we are not a Christian-Nation and no matter how many Ten Commandment we put up... or teach creation instead of evolution... or are lead in daily prayer.
Also, Christian legislation means religion dictates law... how has that worked out in the past? How does that play out in the present? Not so well, right? It would definately suck to be Jewish in a Christian Theocracy... can't even imagine what it would be like to be a Muslim... or worse, Gay.
America is Secular... which allows ALL religions to be personal choice, rather than thrust upon us by mandate.
Hail, Hail!!!
Free from the religious persecution of the Church of England. They were Seperatists and did not believe in adhering to the constraints of a centralized church.
Hail, Hail!!!
Like it or not, there are many people out there who outright abuse the welfare system.
There are people that use it as a hand up, and people who use it as a hand out. I'm for the former, and against the latter.
I agree
Everyone wants the criminals who abuse the system... out of the system. I just think that throwing out the entire system because of corruption is not the answer. I never see anyone saying we need to get rid of the police department when some of their officers are caught breaking the law. Most of the people getting assistance really need assistance.
...
Back to the point... Generosity and Charity. Synonyms?
If America was, indeed, a 'Christian Nation' that followed the words of Jesus... we wouldn't need a Welfare system because our generosity and charity towards the poor would take care of them, just as Jesus tended to the poor in His time. There wouldn't be any cheats... if we were all part of a 'Christian Nation'.
Problem is... we do not tend to the poor. We scorn them... complain about them... want them out of our system. Not like Jesus... therefore, NOT a Christian Nation.
Hail, Hail!!!
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
America will never a 'Christian Nation'... being, acting more Christ-like in their everyday life... because we focus on money/wealth and have a 'What is in it for me' attitude towards life. Neither of which, are found in any of the words or teachings of Christ.
The Christian Church (in it's varying array of factions and sects) may dominate American religion... it does not mean we are Christian. Because there is a difference between following the Christian church and following Jesus.
Hail, Hail!!!