Global Warming Discussion

brianlux

In various threads here on AMT I keep reading posts denying global warming as anthropocentrically caused and even more baffling, the denial of global warming in general, human generated or otherwise. Why is this? Denial of what is feared would be my guess. I don't know that any of us here will convince global warming denialists that it is real and is anthropocentric in nature but I'm willing to keep trying because I believe this is the most important issue we as a species will have to deal with over the next several years. If any of you that have doubts about global warming, let's start an intelligent conversation about it. In a number of AMT threads, I've listed several excellent sources of information on the subject. I'll compile a list of books and resources for anyone interested. Of course, any one here has the right to disagree with global warming as reality, but if you do, at least let your arguments be somewhat intelligent. Accusing someone, for example, of posting "global warming crap" does not qualify as an intelligent argument. (I'm not setting any rules here- that's not my job- I would just like to encourage rational, intelligent conversation.)

Also, those of you who are convinced global warming is real, lets share ideas about how to slow down the process.

polaris_x

we have to first acknowledge it's a problem ... secondly, we need to dispel the myth that being environmentally conscientious and sustainable is bad for the economy ...

i work for a fairly big corporation and i convinced my executive board to adopt a environmental sustainability strategy because it made good business sense ... they were all hampered by misconceptions initially but it didn't take much to convince them to change their tune ...

bgivens33

I get annoyed by people that disbelieve global warming because of the political ramifications. I'm equally annoyed by people that think we are going to stop it.

Right now, there is no solution. Alternative energy is nothing more than supplemental energy. The world isn't going to start conserving energy until we are literally running out. Everyone has seen those, decrease energy use by 20%, increase alternatives by 40% graphs and we would be completely off fossil fuels. It is all crap, and it will never happen. Did you just buy an electric car? Great, but you just plugged it into part of the 70% of the country's energy grid that still comes from hydrocarbons.

The truth of the matter is only a small small percentage of the country actually cares. People love to complain about big oil, but wouldn't dare to actually give up using gasoline(or plastic for that matter).

Our country needs to stop pouring money into technology that has no future(like wind mills) and get serious about solving our energy needs. Our world isn't sustainable off current so called "renewable energy". Once we can all stop pretending it is, we might be able to find a fix. Let's stop wasting money on companies like Solyandra and give the money to NREL or one of the universities for research.

inlet13

brianlux wrote:

In various threads here on AMT I keep reading posts denying global warming as anthropocentrically caused and even more baffling, the denial of global warming in general, human generated or otherwise. Why is this? Denial of what is feared would be my guess. I don't know that any of us here will convince global warming denialists that it is real and is anthropocentric in nature but I'm willing to keep trying because I believe this is the most important issue we as a species will have to deal with over the next several years. If any of you that have doubts about global warming, let's start an intelligent conversation about it. In a number of AMT threads, I've listed several excellent sources of information on the subject. I'll compile a list of books and resources for anyone interested. Of course, any one here has the right to disagree with global warming as reality, but if you do, at least let your arguments be somewhat intelligent. Accusing someone, for example, of posting "global warming crap" does not qualify as an intelligent argument. (I'm not setting any rules here- that's not my job- I would just like to encourage rational, intelligent conversation.)

Also, those of you who are convinced global warming is real, lets share ideas about how to slow down the process.

First, you're having a discussion on a rock band's message board. No one here is some great intellectual thinker. Even if they were, they are just wasting their time at a rock band's message board. So, chillax.

Second, did you ever think that what you read and source is inherently bias? Because as soon as I read two or three sentences of the sources you post, it's evident to me.

Third, when certain people try to derail threads on other topics because they are fixated with global warming, did you ever think they are wrong?

Fourth, you're awful lonely if you think global warming is the "most important issue we as a species will deal with over the next several years". Look at the economy. I'd think most normal humans would say that's a bigger issue over the "next several years". Seriously, that comment alone is enough for someone to cast someone as a loon.

Fifth, I personally believe that regardless of whether global warming is real and man-made or not... there are some who are abusing the topic to promote social welfare policies, and in doing, are purposefully limiting economic growth because they are so mind-warped that they really believe a growing economy is bad. I believe if there really is an issue with global warming, it won't be solved using those "social welfare" techniques, and in fact, will actually have even worse consequences for an average man (see our faltering economy and debt problems) and what will actually be "the most important issue we as a species will deal with over the next several years".

Fifth, I truly believe that no one, including you, knows with 100% absolute certainty whether global warming is man-made, real, and going to be a huge catastrophe. That's my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

bigdvs

First, you're having a discussion on a rock band's message board. No one here is some great intellectual thinker. Even if they were, they are just wasting their time at a rock band's message board. So, chillax.

Second, did you ever think that what you read and source is inherently bias? Because as soon as I read two or three sentences of the sources you post, it's evident to me.

Third, when certain people try to derail threads on other topics because they are fixated with global warming, did you ever think they are wrong?

Fourth, you're awful lonely if you think global warming is the "most important issue we as a species will deal with over the next several years". Look at the economy. I'd think most normal humans would say that's a bigger issue over the "next several years". Seriously, that comment alone is enough for someone to cast someone as a loon.

Fifth, I personally believe that regardless of whether global warming is real and man-made or not... there are some who are abusing the topic to promote social welfare policies, and in doing, are purposefully limiting economic growth because they are so mind-warped that they really believe a growing economy is bad. I believe if there really is an issue with global warming, it won't be solved using those "social welfare" techniques, and in fact, will actually have even worse consequences for an average man (see our faltering economy and debt problems) and what will actually be "the most important issue we as a species will deal with over the next several years".

Fifth, I truly believe that no one, including you, knows with 100% absolute certainty whether global warming is man-made, real, and going to be a huge catastrophe. That's my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

two fifths, fyi

but the rest is good and at least honest

JonnyPistachio

inlet13 wrote:

Fourth, you're awful lonely if you think global warming is the "most important issue we as a species will deal with over the next several years". Look at the economy. I'd think most normal humans would say that's a bigger issue over the "next several years". Seriously, that comment alone is enough for someone to cast someone as a loon.

Loon? That's pretty rude.
I appreciate peoples concern for the planet. Fuck the economy. Who cares if you can't breath clean air or not get cancer from the shit in your water.

I doubt Brianlux will be lonely thinking that the planets health is one of the most important issues we face. In fact, I'm surprised it took us this long to realize that our pollution and energy consumption could be damaging. I once found a guy dead in his car in the garage from suicide, breathing the toxic fumes from his exhaust. Seems like a bit of a concern to me what millions of automobiles are doing to our environment.

As far as what to do about it, I'm not really sure. If it wasnt so damn hot in my town, I'd ride my bike everywhere. I turn off ALL of my appliances and a/c everyday when I leave the house...Alternative fuels are not going to fix everything, but might be a step in the right direction.

polaris_x

bgivens33 wrote:

Our country needs to stop pouring money into technology that has no future(like wind mills) and get serious about solving our energy needs. Our world isn't sustainable off current so called "renewable energy". Once we can all stop pretending it is, we might be able to find a fix. Let's stop wasting money on companies like Solyandra and give the money to NREL or one of the universities for research.

this is not true ... we can solve our energy consumption needs with renewables ... the game has been rigged too long for polluting sources such as oil and coal ... but you are right on one thing ... no one cares - if they did, we wouldn't be in this mess ...

SundaySilence

Global warming is an example of market failure. It conflicts with current free market ideology which ignores, or greatly minimizes, externalities. Instead of facing evidence that their ideology is wrong, they attack the science.

bgivens33

polaris_x wrote:

bgivens33 wrote:

Our country needs to stop pouring money into technology that has no future(like wind mills) and get serious about solving our energy needs. Our world isn't sustainable off current so called "renewable energy". Once we can all stop pretending it is, we might be able to find a fix. Let's stop wasting money on companies like Solyandra and give the money to NREL or one of the universities for research.

this is not true ... we can solve our energy consumption needs with renewables ... the game has been rigged too long for polluting sources such as oil and coal ... but you are right on one thing ... no one cares - if they did, we wouldn't be in this mess ...

Exactly what renewables do you think have the capacity or energy to replace hydrocarbons?

BinauralJam

Where is Godfather?

polaris_x

bgivens33 wrote:

Exactly what renewables do you think have the capacity or energy to replace hydrocarbons?

solar, wind, recapturing, etc. ... but first and foremost, there needs to be a evaluation of consumption ... we treat energy like most of our resources in that we think it's unlimited ... if we paid the true cost of energy, we would be smarter with it ... subsidies have put us in this position ... it's ridiculous the amount of energy we waste ...

bgivens33

polaris_x wrote:

bgivens33 wrote:

Exactly what renewables do you think have the capacity or energy to replace hydrocarbons?

solar, wind, recapturing, etc. ... but first and foremost, there needs to be a evaluation of consumption ... we treat energy like most of our resources in that we think it's unlimited ... if we paid the true cost of energy, we would be smarter with it ... subsidies have put us in this position ... it's ridiculous the amount of energy we waste ...

But nobody is going to do that. That is nothing more than a feel good talking point. What I'm suggesting is we stop wasting time with fantasy discussion about reducing energy consumption and increasing renewable energy use. Wind energy is garbage, it will never, never do anything but supplement our current energy use. Solar energy is more interesting. It is the only(practical) energy source that is 100% efficient(by mass). The amount of energy hitting the earth every day is enormous but our technology isn't up to date. If this country was serious about energy, we would stop clinging to fantasies of our current energy and take all the money we waste subsidizing current energy sources and dump it all into research. As of right now, we just don't have the technology to sustain a growing world without hydrocarbons.

mikepegg44

BinauralJam wrote:

Where is Godfather?

I am thinking the last thread on gays in the military may or may not have given him the read only. That was the last time i saw a post form him anyway...POD too for that matter

Probably just a timeout, I doubt it is permanent

BinauralJam

mikepegg44 wrote:

BinauralJam wrote:

Where is Godfather?

I am thinking the last thread on gays in the military may or may not have given him the read only. That was the last time i saw a post form him anyway...POD too for that matter

Probably just a timeout, I doubt it is permanent

Ah, your right, well happens to the best of us.

polaris_x

bgivens33 wrote:

But nobody is going to do that. That is nothing more than a feel good talking point. What I'm suggesting is we stop wasting time with fantasy discussion about reducing energy consumption and increasing renewable energy use. Wind energy is garbage, it will never, never do anything but supplement our current energy use. Solar energy is more interesting. It is the only(practical) energy source that is 100% efficient(by mass). The amount of energy hitting the earth every day is enormous but our technology isn't up to date. If this country was serious about energy, we would stop clinging to fantasies of our current energy and take all the money we waste subsidizing current energy sources and dump it all into research. As of right now, we just don't have the technology to sustain a growing world without hydrocarbons.

people ARE doing that ... i'm sorry but this is akin to people will continue to drive drunk so let's focus on making it viable so cars can be driven while inebriated ...

germany is moving to a 80% renewable energy source by 2050 ... in 2010, they were at 17% already ... with wind leading the way ...

EdsonNascimento

Not this, still.

We've seen an average temperature rise of like .1 degree in the last 40 years. Which is pretty much the same pace as it's been since the last ice age. It's a pattern. The Earth warms, the Earth cools, stuff lives, stuff dies.

Won't effect the next 10 generations, so not really worried about it. We'll probably blow ourselves up long before it becomes an issue.

Is what humans are doing having a damaging effect on the planet? Of course. One need look no further than the smog that hovers over LA on a consistent basis. So, focus on that and fixing that stuff than Global Warming that really has not been proven any more than any other ideological theory slanted by agendas.

We can't even get people to stop polluting their lungs with a pack a day when we KNOW that is a guaranteed life shortener.

I think you need to stop starting threads with the premise that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong (I know - this is the AMT - it's a way of life). This has to be like the 15th of these since the last time you said you were only preaching goodness. Why load the question with a title ending in Denial, when there is no consensus to that fact? Your sceintific proof will read it exists. Mine does not. And we're probably both wrong. In the mean time, let's focus on issues that we can hopefully solve and there is no debate about. There's enough of those that built on top of one another will lead to your ultimate goal.

polaris_x

:roll:

pretty much every country accepts the science of global warming including the US ... we have conferences around the world trying to figure it out ... but everyone involved is pimping some agenda!? ... :roll:

good grief man ... the science is not that hard to understand ... take 20 mins and learn about it ...

EdsonNascimento

polaris_x wrote:

:roll:

pretty much every country accepts the science of global warming including the US ... we have conferences around the world trying to figure it out ... but everyone involved is pimping some agenda!? ... :roll:

good grief man ... the science is not that hard to understand ... take 20 mins and learn about it ...

Ah!!! So, if we have conferences, it must be true. So Star Trek was true. Good to know.

BTW, your statements are not true.

Now, every country has people that accept it. But, there's also science the disputes it.

Again, if you read carefully, I am not denying that the Earth is warming. It's a matter of degrees (no pun intended). I believe a scientist even left the Nobel board (I'm probably wrong on that exact thing, but it was some internationally recognized organization) over this very fact.

So, no, it is not globally accepted.

Jeanwah

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Ah!!! So, if we have conferences, it must be true. So Star Trek was true. Good to know.

BTW, your statements are not true.

Now, every country has people that accept it. But, there's also science the disputes it.

Again, if you read carefully, I am not denying that the Earth is warming. It's a matter of degrees (no pun intended). I believe a scientist even left the Nobel board (I'm probably wrong on that exact thing, but it was some internationally recognized organization) over this very fact.

So, no, it is not globally accepted.

Any science book will verify the fact that 99% of scientists willingly acknowledge climate change. Only 1% does not. YOU obviously stand with that 1%.

Grandma

To me as a mother and grandmother I'd say this was the #1 issue facing us even if only 20% of scientists agreed that climate change is real and at a minimum highly contributed to by man. What's the possible downside of getting off our addiction to oil especially given where most of it comes from? We need another concerted effort ala the apollo program - which also required increasing spending on education so our children could be the kinds of engineers required to find the answers. That also spurred the economy. Instead we're going to let China further outstrip us by taking the lead on the next critical technology for the future.

But it's more like 98% of scientists that concur and it scares the crap out of me for our children.

EdsonNascimento

Grandma wrote:

To me as a mother and grandmother I'd say this was the #1 issue facing us even if only 20% of scientists agreed that climate change is real and at a minimum highly contributed to by man. What's the possible downside of getting off our addiction to oil especially given where most of it comes from? We need another concerted effort ala the apollo program - which also required increasing spending on education so our children could be the kinds of engineers required to find the answers. That also spurred the economy. Instead we're going to let China further outstrip us by taking the lead on the next critical technology for the future.

But it's more like 98% of scientists that concur and it scares the crap out of me for our children.

That's actually the point I was making. There's nothing wrong with getting us off oil. But, why use rhetoric that only half the folks subscribe to (those %ages are over stated. Just because someone doesn't publish, doesn't mean they don't have a view. Global warming is the sexy idea). But, I digress. Let's push these worthy programs and ideas for their face value. You might make more headway.