2025-2026 NHL Offseason

Hawkshore

polaris_x wrote:

i really don't think any of those markets will work ... today, pro sports survives on season tickets and corporate sponsors and/or huge tax grants ...

i just don't think there is the corporate sponsorship in these smaller markets ... maybe seattle but definitely not Quebec City or Saskatoon ... Houston is a poor choice considering Dallas is a well run franchise and yet they have some of the lowest attendance numbers ... Kansas ... I just don't think of hockey when it comes to Kansas ... and as far as Toronto goes ... the city is not going to support another franchise especially if it's run anywhere like the leafs ... markham is full of asians - building an arena there isn't going to change the fact they aren't a huge hockey demographic ...

Talk about generalizations.....you must never have been to a Canucks home game :roll:

Hartydog

I'm on the players side as well. A revenue cut to below 50% is absurd. And why should the players save the owners from handing out bad contracts? The owners need to manage their businesses better.

Bathgate66

C'mon i am completely 'jones-ing' for hockey.
doesnt 50-50 seem to be fair,
unless that has since been taken off the table ?



Oh and far as further expansion,
maybe Seattle could get a team.

PJam it all up.

:wave:

lukin2006

Why the players won’t go for NHL’s latest proposal

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/h ... le4618449/

lukin2006

Edmonton councillors walk away from arena project, deal collapses

The deal to build a new arena for the Edmonton Oilers collapsed Wednesday, with city councillors pointing the finger of blame at Oilers owner Daryl Katz and his last-minute demands for millions more in taxpayers money.

Stephen Mandel said it was time to send a message.

“It’s wrong to hold us up for ransom,” said Mandel.“This is not a council that said, ‘Don’t do a deal’ — but what do we do when we have a partner that says, ‘We want more money, and you pay for it?” he said.

“I’m not saying we should say no to Mr. Katz, but all the information that I’ve had an opportunity to see does not justify council giving him another six million dollars a year.”

Mandel made the comments after councillors voted unanimously to walk away from the deal agreed to last year with Katz to build the $475-million arena, starting in 2013.

Katz was not in council chambers when the decision was reached. He has been asked twice in recent weeks to meet with council in public to resolve the negotiating logjam but has refused, saying the two sides are so far apart there’s no reason to meet.

The original deal had taxpayers and ticket-buyers building the rink with the Oilers spending about $15 million a year in lease payments and operating costs and keeping almost all the profits.

It went off the rails a month ago when Katz said he’d had a second look at the numbers and needed millions more, including a $6 million a year in operating subsidies for the arena.

Mandel said he can’t judge the merits of the demand because the Oilers have not made their case.

“I don’t know what else we do. I’m not sure where we go,” said Mandel.

“Someone has to be willing to at least put information forward to justify their case.

“We need to send a message (to Katz) that you got a fair deal and stand up to that fair deal or show us why it isn’t a fair deal,” said Mandel.

“And I can tell you he has not shown us.”

Katz officials were not immediately available for comment.

Earlier Wednesday, councillor Kerry Diotte said it’s “shameful” to debate handing over money without any information from Katz.

“How can we even consider giving any tax money to a billionaire team owner when we haven’t seen detailed financials. That’s just not fair,” Diotte said to city manager Simon Farbrother.

Farbrother said no NHL teams divulge their financial information.

Not so, said Diotte.

“In Scottsdale (Arizona), when the Phoenix Coyotes first went there, they tried to sell (the city) on doing a deal without the financials and they told them to get lost. I suggest we do the same thing.”

Farbrother said the two sides have agreed to disagree on the $6 million subsidy, and that in his analysis Katz will “clearly make sufficient revenue to cover any obligations that come with operating the arena.”

But Farbrother said the two sides have dug in on the issue and there’s no movement in sight.

“Will we have an agreement in the next two to four weeks?” asked Coun. Dave Loken.

“In the absence of significant movement on the ($6 million) operating subsidy (by either side) we don’t think you will have an agreement,” said Farbrother.

“Is there any chance there (will be) significant movement on the Katz side of the table?” Loken asked.

“I don’t believe we’ve been given any confidence in that, no,” said Farbrother.

Under the original deal, city taxpayers and ticket buyers would pay to build the arena, which, with land, borrowing costs and surrounding infrastructure factored in, is now effectively at $700 million and rising.

The Oilers would keep all profits from NHL games, trade shows, concerts and other events for 11 months out of the year. The team would also keep naming rights for the building (worth up to $3 million a year), along with $2 million a year from the city for a decade for advertising.

Concession sales alone are pegged at $20 million a year.

In return, the Oilers would pay the city $5.5 million a year for 35 years and pay to operate and run the arena, estimated at $10 million a year.

The Oilers are worth about $212 million, good for middle of the pack in the NHL, and the team regularly sells out Rexall Place.

But Katz, who bought the team in 2008, has said the franchise is losing money.

He also said the city can afford his new demands because the arena will spur retail, office, and residential buildings around it that will bring in an estimated $2 billion more in tax revenues over 20 years.

However councillors were told by Farbrother that the arena will actually bring in about a quarter of that figure, $584 million, and that almost all of that money would be needed to pay off construction of the rink.

The negotiations have turned acrimonious in recent weeks, with both Katz officials and councillors publicly accusing each other of bad-faith bargaining.

Three weeks ago, Katz threatened to move the team to Seattle if the arena did not get built. He later apologized in newspaper ads after angry fans vented outrage on social media sites.

But Katz has not publicly ruled out moving the team as a last resort.

The Oilers are playing at 38-year-old Rexall Place, one of the oldest facilities in the NHL.

Gary Carter

wow that's really bad for the fans of the Oilers. i hope bettman doesn't let the Oilers move to Seattle. if any team should move to Seattle, it's the coyotes.

Drowned Out

Don't mean to totally derail, but this would be a lame thread on it's own - if you don't care about the Edmonton arena, stop reading....

ok,... I've kinda been avoiding the whole arena thing for personal reasons (and laziness)... I spent a couple of hours trying to get myself up to speed and now I'm confused as hell! There are some scary conspiracy theories floating around about Katz wanting to move/sell the Oilers (not just because of the whole Seattle visit and subsequent apology from Katz)

The fact that Katz demanded millions more a year in subsidies without justifying his numbers, and refusing to appear before council makes it seem like he's trying to tank the deal. Wouldn't discuss the numbers, just said he reviewed it and wants more.

Now, with Katz hardlining and the Rexal lease set to expire in 2 years...if he threatens to move/sell, all we have is Bettman and the BOG to protect us, right?...what freaked me out was a post on hfboards, saying 'remember when Katz, Bettman, and Mandel met in NYC - Bettman said he and the BOG would support a move if the arena deal fell thru....'....after the Seattle visit, in an attempt to calm Oil fans, Bettman said 'with a new arena there should be no reason to have any doubts about the future of the Oilers in Edmonton.".....with a new arena.

Imagine Bettman drooling over a 2nd Toronto team with that young talent to create a rivalry? Starting a team in Seattle with that kind of promise? Or that huge Houston tv market, with the Houston Oilers pushing for a Cup within a couple years? Is that enough to scam the Oilers out of Edmonton and then give US the fucking Coyotes or Blue Jackets in a couple years once the arena deal is worked out? fuck me....

Thing is...the City of Edmonton's release said the City plans to review options on going ahead with the arena without Katz...like...fuck me again! They went from 'no public money for the arena'....to 'we'll pay 125 million, Katz pays 100', to 'we'll just build it ourselves' ......So was this Katz's tactic all along - to not contribute to the arena at all? Could the city really go ahead on the building without a tenant? And if they did...would Bettman dare let the Oilers move anyway?
fuck it, i'm goin to bed.

polaris_x

Drowned Out wrote:

Thing is...the City of Edmonton's release said the City plans to review options on going ahead with the arena without Katz...like...fuck me again! They went from 'no public money for the arena'....to 'we'll pay 125 million, Katz pays 100', to 'we'll just build it ourselves' ......So was this Katz's tactic all along - to not contribute to the arena at all? Could the city really go ahead on the building without a tenant? And if they did...would Bettman dare let the Oilers move anyway?
fuck it, i'm goin to bed.

it's almost like seattle supersonics all over again ...

MayDay10

Drowned Out wrote:

Don't mean to totally derail, but this would be a lame thread on it's own - if you don't care about the Edmonton arena, stop reading....

ok,... I've kinda been avoiding the whole arena thing for personal reasons (and laziness)... I spent a couple of hours trying to get myself up to speed and now I'm confused as hell! There are some scary conspiracy theories floating around about Katz wanting to move/sell the Oilers (not just because of the whole Seattle visit and subsequent apology from Katz)

The fact that Katz demanded millions more a year in subsidies without justifying his numbers, and refusing to appear before council makes it seem like he's trying to tank the deal. Wouldn't discuss the numbers, just said he reviewed it and wants more.

Now, with Katz hardlining and the Rexal lease set to expire in 2 years...if he threatens to move/sell, all we have is Bettman and the BOG to protect us, right?...what freaked me out was a post on hfboards, saying 'remember when Katz, Bettman, and Mandel met in NYC - Bettman said he and the BOG would support a move if the arena deal fell thru....'....after the Seattle visit, in an attempt to calm Oil fans, Bettman said 'with a new arena there should be no reason to have any doubts about the future of the Oilers in Edmonton.".....with a new arena.

Imagine Bettman drooling over a 2nd Toronto team with that young talent to create a rivalry? Starting a team in Seattle with that kind of promise? Or that huge Houston tv market, with the Houston Oilers pushing for a Cup within a couple years? Is that enough to scam the Oilers out of Edmonton and then give US the fucking Coyotes or Blue Jackets in a couple years once the arena deal is worked out? fuck me....

Thing is...the City of Edmonton's release said the City plans to review options on going ahead with the arena without Katz...like...fuck me again! They went from 'no public money for the arena'....to 'we'll pay 125 million, Katz pays 100', to 'we'll just build it ourselves' ......So was this Katz's tactic all along - to not contribute to the arena at all? Could the city really go ahead on the building without a tenant? And if they did...would Bettman dare let the Oilers move anyway?
fuck it, i'm goin to bed.

Thats not a bad read...

But I dont think the NHL will allow the Oilers to move, even temporarily. They wont want bad press for at least a few years

uninnocent-

A James Mirtle article from this morning: http://bit.ly/OJP2vb

lukin2006

Gary Carter wrote:

wow that's really bad for the fans of the Oilers. i hope bettman doesn't let the Oilers move to Seattle. if any team should move to Seattle, it's the coyotes.

That guy that owns the team has more than enough money to build his stadium...I also think he is from Edmonton. Truthfully I think these wealthy business men who own sports franchises can put up their own $$$ for a stadium...I say let them move to Seattle and eventually be another Coyotes.

polaris_x

uninnocent- wrote:

A James Mirtle article from this morning: http://bit.ly/OJP2vb

ya ... the owners are trying to screw the players ...

MayDay10

Im hoping that this at least starts some traction.

Word is, the NHLPA are going to put a proposal on the table today. I dont think they can afford to make a rediculous offer at this point in time (if they care about public opinion). So it should be in the relative 'neighborhood' of the owners' proposal.

I saw somewhere that it is rumored to start at 54-46, then 52-48, then 50/50. I think that is reasonable, and frankly, all these 'make them whole' issues and the fact that teams have 1 year to de-ob $70 million payrolls to $59 million, while players hidden in the minors suddenly count along with other tougher cap constraints... sounds like a mess.

I guess then it would come down to NHL clarifying what they mean on HRR and if both sides can agree. Which is a huge issue, especially if the NHL was in fact trying to get crafty with this in their proposal.

After that, the contract years, etc can all easily be negotiated and give/take.

Thankfully, we should know by the weekend if the two sides will be serious about working towards a deal, or if we need to brace for another cancelled chunk of games.

polaris_x

the thing is ... what are we basing fair on? ... the majority of owners are large corporations that shelter their profits and bring in losses from other businesses to cook the books ... all we know is the league has seen unprecedented revenue growth in the last few years and now they want all these concessions ... it's like every time the CBA expires, the players have to give ...

keeponrockin

lukin2006 wrote:

Gary Carter wrote:

wow that's really bad for the fans of the Oilers. i hope bettman doesn't let the Oilers move to Seattle. if any team should move to Seattle, it's the coyotes.

That guy that owns the team has more than enough money to build his stadium...I also think he is from Edmonton. Truthfully I think these wealthy business men who own sports franchises can put up their own $$$ for a stadium...I say let them move to Seattle and eventually be another Coyotes.

If Seattle embraces hockey the same way they did MLS soccer, they'll be wildly successful.

MayDay10

polaris_x wrote:

the thing is ... what are we basing fair on? ... the majority of owners are large corporations that shelter their profits and bring in losses from other businesses to cook the books ... all we know is the league has seen unprecedented revenue growth in the last few years and now they want all these concessions ... it's like every time the CBA expires, the players have to give ...

I dont know how accurate that is.
The low price of the franchise, along with the difficulty the league often has in finding owners (they actually have to search for people who may be interested as opposed to the other way around), seems like an indicator that a lot of teams are as bad-off as advertised. The owners get 43% and have to pay for all the overhead. A lot of the unprecedented growth can be attributed to the surge of the Canadian Dollar. Most of the bulk of the revenue is made by just a small handful of teams.

The other leagues are around 50% and some of them dont have the 100% guaranteed contracts that NHL players enjoy. Its probably going to end up 50-52%. its inevitible. That difference will be enough to drag maybe 10 teams into breaking-even territory, which will be huge, especially with revenue sharing jacked up a bit. I believe that will motivate more teams to spend to the cap, which is good for the players. Then its sink or swim in places like Phoenix, Columbus, Miami. If the owners want it to work there, then they need to finance that, not the players.

polaris_x

MayDay10 wrote:

I dont know how accurate that is.
The low price of the franchise, along with the difficulty the league often has in finding owners (they actually have to search for people who may be interested as opposed to the other way around), seems like an indicator that a lot of teams are as bad-off as advertised. The owners get 43% and have to pay for all the overhead. A lot of the unprecedented growth can be attributed to the surge of the Canadian Dollar. Most of the bulk of the revenue is made by just a small handful of teams.

The other leagues are around 50% and some of them dont have the 100% guaranteed contracts that NHL players enjoy. Its probably going to end up 50-52%. its inevitible. That difference will be enough to drag maybe 10 teams into breaking-even territory, which will be huge, especially with revenue sharing jacked up a bit. I believe that will motivate more teams to spend to the cap, which is good for the players. Then its sink or swim in places like Phoenix, Columbus, Miami. If the owners want it to work there, then they need to finance that, not the players.

i dunno ... you could be right ... i am just very suspect as I honestly haven't heard much about the owners struggling in any way in this negotiation ... definitely in the last lockout but not this one ... and we know we are coming off a period of record revenues ... so, i just find it hard to believe when these rich ass owners cry poor ... it's the same people that want tax cuts and subsidies so they can shelter their money in the cayman islands ... sorry ... off on a tangent ...

Bathgate66

so will we hear today or tonight?

MayDay10

I would think that later in the afternoon we will hear that the NHLPA gave a proposal (hopefully).... then usually the details bleed out over the course of 3PM-7PM EST.

Bathgate66

MayDay10 wrote:

I would think that later in the afternoon we will hear that the NHLPA gave a proposal (hopefully).... then usually the details bleed out over the course of 3PM-7PM EST.

the waiting drove me mad

:wave: