Negotiations are on again but this time there is no giddy sense of optimism the end of the NHL lockout is at hand.
The gloom and anger, which grew late last week on both sides of the labour dispute following the news that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman suggested a two-week moratorium on negotiations, has not lifted. Conversations with people in both the management and union ranks showed most were pessimistic even an abbreviated 2012-13 season could be saved and news that the union and management will try to restart the negotiations provided only a slight lift to the sour feelings.
As one governor put it, the only reason to feel even a slight sense of optimism is the fact they are talking again. The vast difference between the league and the union remains.
After a couple of conversations between NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and NHL Players’ Association special counsel Steve Fehr on the weekend, it was decided to take another stab at a full negotiating session. The talks will begin Monday in New York and both Bettman and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr are expected to attend along with some players and owners.
“We can confirm that we have tentatively agreed to get back together on Monday, either late in the afternoon or early evening,” Daly said in an e-mail message. “The meeting was requested by the union and it’s their agenda. We will see what they have to tell us.”
Daly did not know if the union will be bringing a new proposal. A union spokesman declined to say if anything new will be brought to the table. The union was the only party interested in continuing negotiations, as the league made it known last week it would only negotiate again if the union came up with a new proposal.
There was some excitement on Saturday after the Philadelphia Daily News reported Philadelphia Flyers chairman Ed Snider was unhappy with Bettman and Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs, the chairman of the NHL board of governors. The story said Snider, one of the most powerful owners in the league, was trying to rally enough support among the other owners to push Bettman toward a deal.
However, Snider issued a statement saying the story was “absolutely erroneous.” He said he remains a “solid supporter” of Bettman.
Snider is not considered a hardliner by his fellow governors, as the lockout is costing him on two fronts. The Flyers are owned by Comcast, which also owns the NBC television network. NBC was looking forward to kicking off its new $200-million (all currency U.S.) per year contract with the NHL later this week on the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday.
However, more than one governor pointed out it is almost impossible for the moderates to gain control. While Bettman needs only eight of 30 votes to turn down a proposal for a collective agreement from the NHLPA, it would take 23 to force him to accept one. The governors say the opinions in their ranks are so split neither the hardliners nor the moderates could rally 23 votes.
Recent days have shown there are sharp differences between the players and owners on more issues than the major one of splitting hockey-related revenue. While the players and owners have agreed to an eventual 50-50 split, the owners want to move to it immediately while the players want a gradual move from the 57 per cent share of revenue they received in the former agreement.
But there are also differences in contract rights, such as free agency, contract lengths and limits to annual salary increases. The players also want to receive the full value of their existing contracts.
The owners have offered to put $211-million over two years toward “making the players whole” as long as it is deferred for one year after the new agreement begins. The players say that will not cover 100 per cent of their contracts.
I think this article does a good job of pinpointing exactly what the f'n problem is here....a core group of owners who are taking a hardline stance, and only 8 votes needed to reject a proposal.
The owners have negotiated in bad faith from the start. The players supposedly have ceded the main bone of contention - revenue sharing, accepting a 7% rollback (from 57% of revenue to 50%)....but now the owners are making what were thought of as periphery issues at the onset of negotiations - player rights, contract terms, arbitration, etc, and made them into deal breakers. The players gave up a lot by agreeing to a cap. They are now taking a revenue hit...but the owners still want more. The players wanted to negotiate a new CBA while playing hockey this season. The owners locked them out. So who is really at fault here?
Question:
Will Justin Schultz and/or Nail Yakupov be eligible for the Calder Trophy if this season is lost?
It's the only individual trophy no Oiler has won (aside from the Richard, but it would have been won by Oilers several times if it had been around during the dynasty)......
Gretzky was denied the Calder for playing pro in the WHA before coming to the NHL.....would that rule apply to Schultz and Yakupov?
I think this article does a good job of pinpointing exactly what the f'n problem is here....a core group of owners who are taking a hardline stance, and only 8 votes needed to reject a proposal.
The owners have negotiated in bad faith from the start. The players supposedly have ceded the main bone of contention - revenue sharing, accepting a 7% rollback (from 57% of revenue to 50%)....but now the owners are making what were thought of as periphery issues at the onset of negotiations - player rights, contract terms, arbitration, etc, and made them into deal breakers. The players gave up a lot by agreeing to a cap. They are now taking a revenue hit...but the owners still want more. The players wanted to negotiate a new CBA while playing hockey this season. The owners locked them out. So who is really at fault here?
in fairness, there has not been any voting by the NHLPA and people have speculated that that NHL offer over a month ago would have passed if put up for a vote. There are no 'veto' rules with the NHLPA, Fehr is captaining that ship.
Also, the players have gone to 50/50 on the surface, but they havent provided a full proposal yet (that is what they are supposedly working on today). Word is too that they expect the owners to pay them for time missed this season. They also want guaranteed money 50/50 based on projected revenue growth which de-links it from revenue which has been a non-starter with the NHL from day 1. There are also a lot of the existing contract issues and how are they rolled back/paid out ("make whole" is the buzz phrase).
They arent even on the contract - issues yet.
Also, the owners wanted to talk about this long ago, but Fehr wanted time to 'get acclimated'. Sure the players wanted to extend this deal and delay... its a great deal for them (after we were led to believe they would be starving when the deal was signed in '05). This whole thing happened because Eric Lindros didnt like Paul Kelly and had a hard on for Donald Fehr and 'getting even'.
Question:
Will Justin Schultz and/or Nail Yakupov be eligible for the Calder Trophy if this season is lost?
It's the only individual trophy no Oiler has won (aside from the Richard, but it would have been won by Oilers several times if it had been around during the dynasty)......
Gretzky was denied the Calder for playing pro in the WHA before coming to the NHL.....would that rule apply to Schultz and Yakupov?
Yes, I believe they will be eligible. Ovechkin was playing in the RSL in 04-05, which became the KHL... and Ovechkin was a Calder nominee.
I still think there will be an abbreviated season though
in fairness, there has not been any voting by the NHLPA and people have speculated that that NHL offer over a month ago would have passed if put up for a vote. There are no 'veto' rules with the NHLPA, Fehr is captaining that ship.
Also, the players have gone to 50/50 on the surface, but they havent provided a full proposal yet (that is what they are supposedly working on today). Word is too that they expect the owners to pay them for time missed this season. They also want guaranteed money 50/50 based on projected revenue growth which de-links it from revenue which has been a non-starter with the NHL from day 1. There are also a lot of the existing contract issues and how are they rolled back/paid out ("make whole" is the buzz phrase).
They arent even on the contract - issues yet.
Also, the owners wanted to talk about this long ago, but Fehr wanted time to 'get acclimated'. Sure the players wanted to extend this deal and delay... its a great deal for them (after we were led to believe they would be starving when the deal was signed in '05). This whole thing happened because Eric Lindros didnt like Paul Kelly and had a hard on for Donald Fehr and 'getting even'.
All good points....not sure if it was a link in this thread or I read it elsewhere,but the explanations I read about the make-whole provision and where the disagreements lie was pretty confusing.
I hadn't heard about any proposal based on projected revenue, but it would make sense the owners wouldn't like that.....then again, they are basically negotiating on the premise of predicted losses, so....
As for Lindros.....I would love nothing more than to see him and Bettman square off at center ice in a fight to the death. Give Bettman a couple slapjacks to make it fair. How Lindros was ever allowed to be involved in the NHLPA to begin with is beyond me...one of the biggest douches ever to lace 'em up.
Question:
Will Justin Schultz and/or Nail Yakupov be eligible for the Calder Trophy if this season is lost?
It's the only individual trophy no Oiler has won (aside from the Richard, but it would have been won by Oilers several times if it had been around during the dynasty)......
Gretzky was denied the Calder for playing pro in the WHA before coming to the NHL.....would that rule apply to Schultz and Yakupov?
Yes, I believe they will be eligible. Ovechkin was playing in the RSL in 04-05, which became the KHL... and Ovechkin was a Calder nominee.
I still think there will be an abbreviated season though
just asked a friend this.....think he copied this from wiki or something....
To be eligible for the award, a player cannot have played any more than 25 games previously in any single season, nor have played in more than six games in each of two separate preceding seasons in any major professional league. They also must be 26 years old or younger by September 15 of their rookie season.
Not sure if that applies the the AHL and KHL, but I would think so....hopefully they'll resolve this before they hit the 25 game mark anyway. Schultz is lighting up the AHL and Yakupov is putting up impressive stats in the KHL.
edit: friend called me about this again...he said he now thinks it's 25 nhl games, or six games in two separate NHL seasons....doesnt think the AHL counts. This makes more sense as I'm pretty sure a few calder winners have cut their teeth in the AHL. which would mean these Oilers would be elligible...but doesn't really explain why Gretz was denied, except as a grudge against the WHA...and how did Makarov qualify then? Someone wanna tweet Bob McKenzie for me?
I bet McKenzie would answer that (on a slower day w/o negotiations). Im 99% sure AHL wouldnt count. KHL is kind of a new entity, so there really isnt a precedent. Its up for interpretation. The NHL likes to have as many exciting rookies as possible in the running so Im sure they will include Yakupov.
Big day today. The NHLPA is supposed to give a written proposal for the 1st time at 10AM. Both sides are amassing a lot of bodies to go to the meeting which is a bad sign IMO. Might see another block of games cancelled before the weekend including the All Star Game.
I think Im going to see Niagara and Belleville Friday or Sudbury Saturday.
I bet McKenzie would answer that (on a slower day w/o negotiations). Im 99% sure AHL wouldnt count. KHL is kind of a new entity, so there really isnt a precedent. Its up for interpretation. The NHL likes to have as many exciting rookies as possible in the running so Im sure they will include Yakupov.
Big day today. The NHLPA is supposed to give a written proposal for the 1st time at 10AM. Both sides are amassing a lot of bodies to go to the meeting which is a bad sign IMO. Might see another block of games cancelled before the weekend including the All Star Game.
I think Im going to see Niagara and Belleville Friday or Sudbury Saturday.
I wish they would just stop releasing all the details of when they are meeting. I'm so sick of reading this bullshit. Every time I read that they are meeting, I can't help but get a little excited. Then naturally later that day we find out that nothing has happened.
Really going to miss the NHL this weekend. Blackhawks are always out west at this time and play tonight in SJ and then an afternoon game in Anaheim on Friday. So depressing that I won't be out day drinking on Friday to watch the Hawks.
I saw someone tweet that in 1995 the agreement came on January 11th, and in 2005 the final cancellation was February 16th.
I was wondering if there was a specific date by which they just called the season dead if there was no agreement. One would hope that having a such a date in the rulebooks wouldn't be necessary, but here we are again. :fp:
drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
or if enough players are sick of missing paychecks for this.
I saw someone tweet that in 1995 the agreement came on January 11th, and in 2005 the final cancellation was February 16th.
there are new players showing up at negotiations ... everyone is in support of fehr ... saw a piece (biased) on how mlb has enjoyed the largest run of labour peace after fehr negotiated for the union ...
and from what i gather - if the players agreed to this deal it would be the most restrictive labour agreement in the history of sports ...
The history of sports? Brush up on some history. MLB players had to go to court just to obtain ANY Free Agency rights. Also look into the origin of the Black Sox scandal. Hell, lets talk to any NHL player who played prior to 1990 and ask them how bad these current guys have it.
the NFL has it a lot worse presently with no guaranteed contracts and 50/50 split...
Also, here are the NHL salaries in 89-90:
1989–90 season
Although Wayne Gretzky is considered one of the greatest hockey players of all time, his total salaries are not among the top 20 salary earners of all time.
1.Mario Lemieux (Pittsburgh Penguins) $2 million
2.Wayne Gretzky (Los Angeles Kings) $1.72 million
3.Mark Messier (Edmonton Oilers) $0.86 million
4.Steve Yzerman (Detroit Red Wings) $0.7 million
5.Bryan Trottier (New York Islanders) $0.575 million
before the strike/lockout
1992–93 season
1.Eric Lindros (Philadelphia Flyers) $3.5 million
2.Wayne Gretzky (Los Angeles Kings) $3 million
3.Mario Lemieux (Pittsburgh Penguins) $2.408 million
4.Mark Messier (New York Rangers) $2.385 million
5.Pat LaFontaine (Buffalo Sabres) $1.775 million
After the strike/lockout
1995–96 season
1.Wayne Gretzky (Los Angeles Kings/St. Louis Blues) $6.54 million
2.Mark Messier (New York Rangers) $6.29 million
3.Keith Tkachuk (Winnipeg Jets) $6 million
4.Mario Lemieux (Pittsburgh Penguins) $4.5714 million
5.Pavel Bure (Vancouver Canucks) $4.5 million
now
2012–13 season
1.Shea Weber (Nashville Predators) $14 million
2.Tyler Myers (Buffalo Sabres) $12 million
Zach Parise (Minnesota Wild) $12 million
Brad Richards (New York Rangers) $12 million
Ryan Suter (Minnesota Wild) $12 million
Do you really want to see a MLB-type system in the NHL? Its a disaster. It would be the end of the league. It couldnt survive.
Kris Versteeg, who makes $4.25 Million a year to score 50 points for a garbage team in a city he wouldnt be recognized from the garbage man is calling Bettman an "Idiot" and says that him and the owners are "looting the game".
After the strike/lockout
1995–96 season
1.Wayne Gretzky (Los Angeles Kings/St. Louis Blues) $6.54 million
2.Mark Messier (New York Rangers) $6.29 million
3.Keith Tkachuk (Winnipeg Jets) $6 million
4.Mario Lemieux (Pittsburgh Penguins) $4.5714 million
5.Pavel Bure (Vancouver Canucks) $4.5 million
now
2012–13 season
1.Shea Weber (Nashville Predators) $14 million
2.Tyler Myers (Buffalo Sabres) $12 million
Zach Parise (Minnesota Wild) $12 million
Brad Richards (New York Rangers) $12 million
Ryan Suter (Minnesota Wild) $12 million
Do you really want to see a MLB-type system in the NHL? Its a disaster. It would be the end of the league. It couldnt survive.
Kris Versteeg, who makes $4.25 Million a year to score 50 points for a garbage team in a city he wouldnt be recognized from the garbage man is calling Bettman an "Idiot" and says that him and the owners are "looting the game".
Right, but didn't the owners see this coming? Surely they saw it coming.
drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
every knew it was coming. Players, owners.... everyone is to blame for not figuring out a god damn system that is good for both parties and can progress the league/sport.
I believe the biggest move from that was firing Paul Kelly and hiring Donald Fehr.
They still all would have found a way to mess it up though
Sorry May day but your stats are not correct. first off Tyler Myers does not get paid 12 million a year. he signed a 7 year 38 million contract.
also, you can't blame the players for the teams signing them to that contract. it is the owners fault. they wanted the cap or do we forget that. they screwed themselves for agreeing to have the floor on the cap that has screwed them.
every knew it was coming. Players, owners.... everyone is to blame for not figuring out a god damn system that is good for both parties and can progress the league/sport.
I believe the biggest move from that was firing Paul Kelly and hiring Donald Fehr.
They still all would have found a way to mess it up though
you are never going to have a fair system in the NHL cause you have too many teams that lose too much money. this strike again is not about the poor teams, it is about the rich teams.
Sorry May day but your stats are not correct. first off Tyler Myers does not get paid 12 million a year. he signed a 7 year 38 million contract.
also, you can't blame the players for the teams signing them to that contract. it is the owners fault. they wanted the cap or do we forget that. they screwed themselves for agreeing to have the floor on the cap that has screwed them.
well, he does (would have made) make 12 million this season in a front loaded contract (where the cap hit is spread throughout the 7 years). The NHL wants to do away with the cap-circumventing front loaded deals.
The owners are in competition with one another and sign contracts based on the salary system in place... They cant all 'agree' to not sign players to big contracts. Thats illegal and NHLPA lawyers would be busting down the door.
Teams will find ways around the cap and circumvent the system, which is why we saw these front-loaded deals and deals that went well into retirement to soften the cap hit, Wade Redden making like $7 Million tucked away in the AHL, players going onto the LTIR to get off the cap hit, etc...
The system dictates the behavior. In all sports this occurs. Owners/Gms and Player Agents find ways to use the rules to their advantage.
every knew it was coming. Players, owners.... everyone is to blame for not figuring out a god damn system that is good for both parties and can progress the league/sport.
I believe the biggest move from that was firing Paul Kelly and hiring Donald Fehr.
They still all would have found a way to mess it up though
you are never going to have a fair system in the NHL cause you have too many teams that lose too much money. this strike again is not about the poor teams, it is about the rich teams.
I think a little more relief and revenue sharing can bring 2/3 or more of the league into the black. The extreme cases may be a lost cause, but the Buffalos, Ottawas, STLs, etc of the world can turn a profit.
We got Buffalo as an example with losing money each year (despite selling out 95% of the games in non playoff years). It is easy to say: "well dont sign Myers to a front loaded $38 million deal if you are losing money". Struggling franchises will lose these players, in turn, will lose fan support, lose more money, and it will be a circling drain. If more teams can hit the black without making it to Round 3 of the playoffs, it is better for everyone.
Plus, the owner of the Sabres doesnt really care about money. The problem is, if something happened to him (passed away, indicted, bankrupcy, etc....) there would be a lack of people interested in investing in the NHL.
I thought the PA should have gone in with a public demand for more revenue sharing owner to owner, as well as demand some sort of say in what happens in league affairs that affect revenue (such as the Phoenix situation, Islanders sitch, etc).
Sorry May day but your stats are not correct. first off Tyler Myers does not get paid 12 million a year. he signed a 7 year 38 million contract.
also, you can't blame the players for the teams signing them to that contract. it is the owners fault. they wanted the cap or do we forget that. they screwed themselves for agreeing to have the floor on the cap that has screwed them.
well, he does (would have made) make 12 million this season in a front loaded contract (where the cap hit is spread throughout the 7 years). The NHL wants to do away with the cap-circumventing front loaded deals.
The owners are in competition with one another and sign contracts based on the salary system in place... They cant all 'agree' to not sign players to big contracts. Thats illegal and NHLPA lawyers would be busting down the door.
Teams will find ways around the cap and circumvent the system, which is why we saw these front-loaded deals and deals that went well into retirement to soften the cap hit, Wade Redden making like $7 Million tucked away in the AHL, players going onto the LTIR to get off the cap hit, etc...
The system dictates the behavior. In all sports this occurs. Owners/Gms and Player Agents find ways to use the rules to their advantage.
thats true, but again at the end of the day you can really blame the players for what the owners and gm do. if the NHL was smarted they would do away with the cap.
The system that they have was what they wanted to have if you remember the last lock out. The NHL was very happy about it but now they are not happy and want everything that they didn't get last time.
i saw somewhere that the 2 sides have agreed in principle on the front-loaded contract issue, an NHL player making over $550K in the AHL would count against the cap, abolishing re-entry waivers, and also teams will be allowed to trade off cap space (Im not sure exactly what that will mean).
@DarrenDreger: Players move off guaranteed dollars is a big move in the owners direction. Interested to hear NHL response to PA's ask for more Make Whole $
@mirtle: If players ask for $180-million on top of $211-million for make whole in a shortened season... that ain't going to work folks.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: We're also hearing the NHLPA proposal will work off a percentage of HRR -- as requested by NHL -- and not a guaranteed dollar amount.
@DarrenDreger: PA moves off its position on guaranteed players share dollars + shifts more to the owners demand of a percentage base in the revenue split.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: But what those percentages are, and whether the $180M increase in Make Whole acts as a guarantee of sorts, remains to be seen.
Do you really want to see a MLB-type system in the NHL? Its a disaster. It would be the end of the league. It couldnt survive.
Kris Versteeg, who makes $4.25 Million a year to score 50 points for a garbage team in a city he wouldnt be recognized from the garbage man is calling Bettman an "Idiot" and says that him and the owners are "looting the game".
i'm not saying it should be a mlb type system but they do have labour peace and at the end of the day - that is what fans want ...
it seems like you are on the side of the owners here ... is it your position that the players should cede certain rights and give in to the owners on this?
@DarrenDreger: Players move off guaranteed dollars is a big move in the owners direction. Interested to hear NHL response to PA's ask for more Make Whole $
@mirtle: If players ask for $180-million on top of $211-million for make whole in a shortened season... that ain't going to work folks.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: We're also hearing the NHLPA proposal will work off a percentage of HRR -- as requested by NHL -- and not a guaranteed dollar amount.
@DarrenDreger: PA moves off its position on guaranteed players share dollars + shifts more to the owners demand of a percentage base in the revenue split.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: But what those percentages are, and whether the $180M increase in Make Whole acts as a guarantee of sorts, remains to be seen.
Who else do you suggest following on Twitter for the latest news? @NHLExpertPicks has been slackin' lately.
drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
@DarrenDreger: Players move off guaranteed dollars is a big move in the owners direction. Interested to hear NHL response to PA's ask for more Make Whole $
@mirtle: If players ask for $180-million on top of $211-million for make whole in a shortened season... that ain't going to work folks.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: We're also hearing the NHLPA proposal will work off a percentage of HRR -- as requested by NHL -- and not a guaranteed dollar amount.
@DarrenDreger: PA moves off its position on guaranteed players share dollars + shifts more to the owners demand of a percentage base in the revenue split.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: But what those percentages are, and whether the $180M increase in Make Whole acts as a guarantee of sorts, remains to be seen.
Who else do you suggest following on Twitter for the latest news? @NHLExpertPicks has been slackin' lately.
Dreger is right on top of all things with the lockout. Pierre LeBrun has been really good too. He's @Real_ESPNLeBrun
Dreger is right on top of all things with the lockout. Pierre LeBrun has been really good too. He's @Real_ESPNLeBrun
Thanks!
drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Comments
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/h ... le5415465/
Negotiations are on again but this time there is no giddy sense of optimism the end of the NHL lockout is at hand.
The gloom and anger, which grew late last week on both sides of the labour dispute following the news that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman suggested a two-week moratorium on negotiations, has not lifted. Conversations with people in both the management and union ranks showed most were pessimistic even an abbreviated 2012-13 season could be saved and news that the union and management will try to restart the negotiations provided only a slight lift to the sour feelings.
As one governor put it, the only reason to feel even a slight sense of optimism is the fact they are talking again. The vast difference between the league and the union remains.
After a couple of conversations between NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and NHL Players’ Association special counsel Steve Fehr on the weekend, it was decided to take another stab at a full negotiating session. The talks will begin Monday in New York and both Bettman and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr are expected to attend along with some players and owners.
“We can confirm that we have tentatively agreed to get back together on Monday, either late in the afternoon or early evening,” Daly said in an e-mail message. “The meeting was requested by the union and it’s their agenda. We will see what they have to tell us.”
Daly did not know if the union will be bringing a new proposal. A union spokesman declined to say if anything new will be brought to the table. The union was the only party interested in continuing negotiations, as the league made it known last week it would only negotiate again if the union came up with a new proposal.
There was some excitement on Saturday after the Philadelphia Daily News reported Philadelphia Flyers chairman Ed Snider was unhappy with Bettman and Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs, the chairman of the NHL board of governors. The story said Snider, one of the most powerful owners in the league, was trying to rally enough support among the other owners to push Bettman toward a deal.
However, Snider issued a statement saying the story was “absolutely erroneous.” He said he remains a “solid supporter” of Bettman.
Snider is not considered a hardliner by his fellow governors, as the lockout is costing him on two fronts. The Flyers are owned by Comcast, which also owns the NBC television network. NBC was looking forward to kicking off its new $200-million (all currency U.S.) per year contract with the NHL later this week on the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday.
However, more than one governor pointed out it is almost impossible for the moderates to gain control. While Bettman needs only eight of 30 votes to turn down a proposal for a collective agreement from the NHLPA, it would take 23 to force him to accept one. The governors say the opinions in their ranks are so split neither the hardliners nor the moderates could rally 23 votes.
Recent days have shown there are sharp differences between the players and owners on more issues than the major one of splitting hockey-related revenue. While the players and owners have agreed to an eventual 50-50 split, the owners want to move to it immediately while the players want a gradual move from the 57 per cent share of revenue they received in the former agreement.
But there are also differences in contract rights, such as free agency, contract lengths and limits to annual salary increases. The players also want to receive the full value of their existing contracts.
The owners have offered to put $211-million over two years toward “making the players whole” as long as it is deferred for one year after the new agreement begins. The players say that will not cover 100 per cent of their contracts.
I think this article does a good job of pinpointing exactly what the f'n problem is here....a core group of owners who are taking a hardline stance, and only 8 votes needed to reject a proposal.
The owners have negotiated in bad faith from the start. The players supposedly have ceded the main bone of contention - revenue sharing, accepting a 7% rollback (from 57% of revenue to 50%)....but now the owners are making what were thought of as periphery issues at the onset of negotiations - player rights, contract terms, arbitration, etc, and made them into deal breakers. The players gave up a lot by agreeing to a cap. They are now taking a revenue hit...but the owners still want more. The players wanted to negotiate a new CBA while playing hockey this season. The owners locked them out. So who is really at fault here?
It's good hockey!
Will Justin Schultz and/or Nail Yakupov be eligible for the Calder Trophy if this season is lost?
It's the only individual trophy no Oiler has won (aside from the Richard, but it would have been won by Oilers several times if it had been around during the dynasty)......
Gretzky was denied the Calder for playing pro in the WHA before coming to the NHL.....would that rule apply to Schultz and Yakupov?
in fairness, there has not been any voting by the NHLPA and people have speculated that that NHL offer over a month ago would have passed if put up for a vote. There are no 'veto' rules with the NHLPA, Fehr is captaining that ship.
Also, the players have gone to 50/50 on the surface, but they havent provided a full proposal yet (that is what they are supposedly working on today). Word is too that they expect the owners to pay them for time missed this season. They also want guaranteed money 50/50 based on projected revenue growth which de-links it from revenue which has been a non-starter with the NHL from day 1. There are also a lot of the existing contract issues and how are they rolled back/paid out ("make whole" is the buzz phrase).
They arent even on the contract - issues yet.
Also, the owners wanted to talk about this long ago, but Fehr wanted time to 'get acclimated'. Sure the players wanted to extend this deal and delay... its a great deal for them (after we were led to believe they would be starving when the deal was signed in '05). This whole thing happened because Eric Lindros didnt like Paul Kelly and had a hard on for Donald Fehr and 'getting even'.
I still think there will be an abbreviated season though
I hadn't heard about any proposal based on projected revenue, but it would make sense the owners wouldn't like that.....then again, they are basically negotiating on the premise of predicted losses, so....
As for Lindros.....I would love nothing more than to see him and Bettman square off at center ice in a fight to the death. Give Bettman a couple slapjacks to make it fair. How Lindros was ever allowed to be involved in the NHLPA to begin with is beyond me...one of the biggest douches ever to lace 'em up.
To be eligible for the award, a player cannot have played any more than 25 games previously in any single season, nor have played in more than six games in each of two separate preceding seasons in any major professional league. They also must be 26 years old or younger by September 15 of their rookie season.
Not sure if that applies the the AHL and KHL, but I would think so....hopefully they'll resolve this before they hit the 25 game mark anyway. Schultz is lighting up the AHL and Yakupov is putting up impressive stats in the KHL.
edit: friend called me about this again...he said he now thinks it's 25 nhl games, or six games in two separate NHL seasons....doesnt think the AHL counts. This makes more sense as I'm pretty sure a few calder winners have cut their teeth in the AHL. which would mean these Oilers would be elligible...but doesn't really explain why Gretz was denied, except as a grudge against the WHA...and how did Makarov qualify then? Someone wanna tweet Bob McKenzie for me?
Big day today. The NHLPA is supposed to give a written proposal for the 1st time at 10AM. Both sides are amassing a lot of bodies to go to the meeting which is a bad sign IMO. Might see another block of games cancelled before the weekend including the All Star Game.
I think Im going to see Niagara and Belleville Friday or Sudbury Saturday.
I wish they would just stop releasing all the details of when they are meeting. I'm so sick of reading this bullshit. Every time I read that they are meeting, I can't help but get a little excited. Then naturally later that day we find out that nothing has happened.
Really going to miss the NHL this weekend. Blackhawks are always out west at this time and play tonight in SJ and then an afternoon game in Anaheim on Friday. So depressing that I won't be out day drinking on Friday to watch the Hawks.
or if enough players are sick of missing paychecks for this.
I saw someone tweet that in 1995 the agreement came on January 11th, and in 2005 the final cancellation was February 16th.
I was wondering if there was a specific date by which they just called the season dead if there was no agreement. One would hope that having a such a date in the rulebooks wouldn't be necessary, but here we are again. :fp:
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Next!"
there are new players showing up at negotiations ... everyone is in support of fehr ... saw a piece (biased) on how mlb has enjoyed the largest run of labour peace after fehr negotiated for the union ...
and from what i gather - if the players agreed to this deal it would be the most restrictive labour agreement in the history of sports ...
the NFL has it a lot worse presently with no guaranteed contracts and 50/50 split...
Also, here are the NHL salaries in 89-90:
1989–90 season
Although Wayne Gretzky is considered one of the greatest hockey players of all time, his total salaries are not among the top 20 salary earners of all time.
1.Mario Lemieux (Pittsburgh Penguins) $2 million
2.Wayne Gretzky (Los Angeles Kings) $1.72 million
3.Mark Messier (Edmonton Oilers) $0.86 million
4.Steve Yzerman (Detroit Red Wings) $0.7 million
5.Bryan Trottier (New York Islanders) $0.575 million
before the strike/lockout
1992–93 season
1.Eric Lindros (Philadelphia Flyers) $3.5 million
2.Wayne Gretzky (Los Angeles Kings) $3 million
3.Mario Lemieux (Pittsburgh Penguins) $2.408 million
4.Mark Messier (New York Rangers) $2.385 million
5.Pat LaFontaine (Buffalo Sabres) $1.775 million
After the strike/lockout
1995–96 season
1.Wayne Gretzky (Los Angeles Kings/St. Louis Blues) $6.54 million
2.Mark Messier (New York Rangers) $6.29 million
3.Keith Tkachuk (Winnipeg Jets) $6 million
4.Mario Lemieux (Pittsburgh Penguins) $4.5714 million
5.Pavel Bure (Vancouver Canucks) $4.5 million
now
2012–13 season
1.Shea Weber (Nashville Predators) $14 million
2.Tyler Myers (Buffalo Sabres) $12 million
Zach Parise (Minnesota Wild) $12 million
Brad Richards (New York Rangers) $12 million
Ryan Suter (Minnesota Wild) $12 million
Do you really want to see a MLB-type system in the NHL? Its a disaster. It would be the end of the league. It couldnt survive.
Kris Versteeg, who makes $4.25 Million a year to score 50 points for a garbage team in a city he wouldnt be recognized from the garbage man is calling Bettman an "Idiot" and says that him and the owners are "looting the game".
Right, but didn't the owners see this coming? Surely they saw it coming.
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Next!"
I believe the biggest move from that was firing Paul Kelly and hiring Donald Fehr.
They still all would have found a way to mess it up though
also, you can't blame the players for the teams signing them to that contract. it is the owners fault. they wanted the cap or do we forget that. they screwed themselves for agreeing to have the floor on the cap that has screwed them.
you are never going to have a fair system in the NHL cause you have too many teams that lose too much money. this strike again is not about the poor teams, it is about the rich teams.
well, he does (would have made) make 12 million this season in a front loaded contract (where the cap hit is spread throughout the 7 years). The NHL wants to do away with the cap-circumventing front loaded deals.
The owners are in competition with one another and sign contracts based on the salary system in place... They cant all 'agree' to not sign players to big contracts. Thats illegal and NHLPA lawyers would be busting down the door.
Teams will find ways around the cap and circumvent the system, which is why we saw these front-loaded deals and deals that went well into retirement to soften the cap hit, Wade Redden making like $7 Million tucked away in the AHL, players going onto the LTIR to get off the cap hit, etc...
The system dictates the behavior. In all sports this occurs. Owners/Gms and Player Agents find ways to use the rules to their advantage.
I think a little more relief and revenue sharing can bring 2/3 or more of the league into the black. The extreme cases may be a lost cause, but the Buffalos, Ottawas, STLs, etc of the world can turn a profit.
We got Buffalo as an example with losing money each year (despite selling out 95% of the games in non playoff years). It is easy to say: "well dont sign Myers to a front loaded $38 million deal if you are losing money". Struggling franchises will lose these players, in turn, will lose fan support, lose more money, and it will be a circling drain. If more teams can hit the black without making it to Round 3 of the playoffs, it is better for everyone.
Plus, the owner of the Sabres doesnt really care about money. The problem is, if something happened to him (passed away, indicted, bankrupcy, etc....) there would be a lack of people interested in investing in the NHL.
I thought the PA should have gone in with a public demand for more revenue sharing owner to owner, as well as demand some sort of say in what happens in league affairs that affect revenue (such as the Phoenix situation, Islanders sitch, etc).
thats true, but again at the end of the day you can really blame the players for what the owners and gm do. if the NHL was smarted they would do away with the cap.
The system that they have was what they wanted to have if you remember the last lock out. The NHL was very happy about it but now they are not happy and want everything that they didn't get last time.
But it increases what they want for this season, to make up for the "shortened aspect".
@mirtle: If players ask for $180-million on top of $211-million for make whole in a shortened season... that ain't going to work folks.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: We're also hearing the NHLPA proposal will work off a percentage of HRR -- as requested by NHL -- and not a guaranteed dollar amount.
@DarrenDreger: PA moves off its position on guaranteed players share dollars + shifts more to the owners demand of a percentage base in the revenue split.
@TSNBobMcKenzie: But what those percentages are, and whether the $180M increase in Make Whole acts as a guarantee of sorts, remains to be seen.
i'm not saying it should be a mlb type system but they do have labour peace and at the end of the day - that is what fans want ...
it seems like you are on the side of the owners here ... is it your position that the players should cede certain rights and give in to the owners on this?
Who else do you suggest following on Twitter for the latest news? @NHLExpertPicks has been slackin' lately.
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Next!"
Dreger is right on top of all things with the lockout. Pierre LeBrun has been really good too. He's @Real_ESPNLeBrun
Thanks!
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Next!"