Oilers lost the trade now but if larsson puts up 35-40 and continues to grow next year I think we came out better than some of the other rumours hat have been going around (nuge for dumba - f that). That's a BIG but...but he plugs a huge, gaping hole at RD. Had to be done. Had to be done 3-5 years ago, actually (bringing in a minute munching, first passing, young, fairly priced, shutdown d). I'm def in the minority in Edmonton, tho...ppl are pissed. Have to remember oil are signing Lucic on Friday...and possibly demers. If not demers I'm thinking maybe a trade for shattenkirk, Barrie, or vatanen? Still need another righty. I don't think chia makes this trade without something already in place with Lucic. If he did, lucic's ask just went up lol....Chia isn't done by a long shot....and I welcome it. Tired of missing the playoffs. They're a better team with larsson and Lucic than they were with just hall. Oil also needed a culture change. Lots of people saying off record (and Eakins - former coach on record) that hall was a baby in the room. He's better than Lucic but Hopefully Lucic will bring a better dynamic to the room.
You bring up some good points ... Especially the signing of Lucic, and with the salary cap today those are the things that need to be balanced ... And I'm sure it's not lost on the oilers general manager that in today's cap era you can only have so many top flight players.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Pk subban is one of the best players in the nhl. Weber is good but he is also on the back 9 now.
Im friends with a bunch of people from montreal and they are in jersey burning mode and the comments i see on their fb pages are nearly unanimous angry as hell.
Those fans are thinking with emotion more than anything ... Montreal has to think about the $$$, I also believe they are really hopeful their 9th overall pick can make the roster ... And if he does, I'm sure Weber would be a much better influence than Suban ... The only thing he'd learn from Suban is how to be a hotdog on the ice and lazy.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Praying they keep the Lucic term down but wouldn't be surprised to see 6 years. And you do pay a premium for top end d talent. With the league being 60/40 left/right, the RD's are the most rare animal in the game. The past few years have proven it. Look at their D depth chart...klefbom/Sekera/Davidson/nurse/Reinhart/oesterle. All legit talents. Under contract on the right they have....mark fayne and a couple ahl'ers. Hall is elite but wingers are replaceable...top pairing RD are impossible to find. Chiarelli basically admitted they lost the trade - but only on their current body of work. It's a gamble and yes, I'm trying hard to convince myself it will all be ok...or turn out great if larsson develops into a bona fide #1 next year and is under contract for 4 mil for another 5 years. I've read lots of devils fans talking about larsson being a tough loss, that he's underrated...he's 23, d curve is a lot slower than fwd...lots of upside left.
And ya, I think there was an EDM Mtl trade worked out for subban, involving the 4th pick so the Habs could take Dubois...chia alluded to a done deal that didn't materialize after the draft, and bergevin looked pissed when selecting sergachev. subban woulda been sick with mcdavid on the pp, but I'm stoked they got poolparty.
This is clearly Therrien not liking Subban and Bergevin doing his coach a favor, still doesnt make it a good trade. A plus for MTL is, if Weber retires before the contract ends, Nashville is on the hook for any recapture penalties. Still, Subban is younger with a shorter contract. Don't forget, Nashville prob has the best defense in the league, even after losing Weber. They have enough guys to play back and let Subban do his thing.
And so you see, I have come to doubt All that I once held as true I stand alone without beliefs The only truth I know is you.
Oilers lost the trade now but if larsson puts up 35-40 and continues to grow next year I think we came out better than some of the other rumours hat have been going around (nuge for dumba - f that). That's a BIG but...but he plugs a huge, gaping hole at RD. Had to be done. Had to be done 3-5 years ago, actually (bringing in a minute munching, first passing, young, fairly priced, shutdown d). I'm def in the minority in Edmonton, tho...ppl are pissed. Have to remember oil are signing Lucic on Friday...and possibly demers. If not demers I'm thinking maybe a trade for shattenkirk, Barrie, or vatanen? Still need another righty. I don't think chia makes this trade without something already in place with Lucic. If he did, lucic's ask just went up lol....Chia isn't done by a long shot....and I welcome it. Tired of missing the playoffs. They're a better team with larsson and Lucic than they were with just hall. Oil also needed a culture change. Lots of people saying off record (and Eakins - former coach on record) that hall was a baby in the room. He's better than Lucic but Hopefully Lucic will bring a better dynamic to the room.
You bring up some good points ... Especially the signing of Lucic, and with the salary cap today those are the things that need to be balanced ... And I'm sure it's not lost on the oilers general manager that in today's cap era you can only have so many top flight players.
Hall was underrated and a value contract...3rd in the league in points per 60 min played 5 on 5. In his prime. But you are not going to win a trade for a top pairing d. Everyone keeps calling larsson a 3-4 but the guy played top pairing for the Devils, a bad team, and was still a healthy + player. If he takes another step offensively next year and keeps shutting other top lines down, he wouldnt be available. I'd take okposo on the oil. Esp if the eberle for shattenkirk rumours are true.
Larsson is 23. Those guys don't peak until they're 28ish. For all we know now Larsson could be a Norris candidate between the ages of 26-32.
There we go! ^^ I think the great ones peak a little earlier, but he will continue to improve for a couple years. Being pushed by another young swede partner will be great for both of them. he'll surprise a lot of people in Edmonton. I really hope so anyway. But what do I know, I thought the Reinhart deal was decent value and he was ready... that hasn't panned out yet at all.
Oh they take time. Not every defenseman is Dewey or Karlsson. Look at Burnsy. Guy was strong in his 20's but he only became what he is now at, I think he's what 30?
This is clearly Therrien not liking Subban and Bergevin doing his coach a favor, still doesnt make it a good trade. A plus for MTL is, if Weber retires before the contract ends, Nashville is on the hook for any recapture penalties. Still, Subban is younger with a shorter contract. Don't forget, Nashville prob has the best defense in the league, even after losing Weber. They have enough guys to play back and let Subban do his thing.
May have been some locker room BS too - Pacioretty, et al.
I'd take Weber in heart beat over Subban ... So Montreal did alright ... The only problem I see is your paying Weber till he's 40, but if you win the Stanley cup with Weber then that might be irrelevant. The Canadians added Shaw and Weber, two character guys who should make them better and their also interested in Ladd.
if you're an analytics guy ... weber is at the bottom end of a lot of stats ... he doesn't comp well with subban at all ...
There is a tendency in the era of social media to overreact to big trades, pronouncing an instant winner and loser without all the details. Sometimes the “wait and see” approach is wiser and shows maturity.
This is not one of those times.
The Montreal Canadiens have made possibly the worst trade in the history of their franchise, for no reason at all. P.K. Subban is no longer a Canadien and will instead suit up for the Nashville Predators, with Shea Weber taking his place in Montreal. A one-for-one deal of two right-handed defencemen with enormous contracts, but only one of them is worth it.
Subban, 27, is four years younger than Weber, who turns 31 in August and is signed for six more seasons to Weber’s 10. Even if the two were equivalent talents, taking the older defenceman who is signed longer is a bad deal, but unfortunately for the Canadiens, Weber has been in sharp decline for a number of years.
No player in the NHL made more plays with the puck per minute played than Subban, while Weber ranked a lowly 216th of 256 in terms of involvement in the play, and it gets worse when you compare the two directly.
Not everything a player does is accounted for here, but this is a strong cross section of the responsibilities of an elite defenceman – and it’s not close to compare the two. Only Erik Karlsson compares favourably to Subban’s contribution in generating scoring chances, and Weber isn’t even among the top 30.
Subban is an elite transition player who moves the puck up ice with control better than almost anyone in the NHL, and again, Weber is nothing special there, as he relied on Roman Josi. Weber is close to Subban when it comes to passing the puck out of the defensive zone, but this past season was the worst of Subban’s career in that regard, as Michel Therrien constantly harped on him to dump the puck out, which he did.
Carrying the puck out is the mark of an elite puck-moving defenceman, and Subban does that at more than three times the rate of Weber.
A similar story applies to loose puck recoveries, where Subban is the envy of the league for winning puck battles in the defensive zone and Weber ranks 202nd, between Braydon Coburn and Jack Johnson.
Even in something as simple as completed passes, Subban’s numbers blow Weber’s out of the water, and this is without even getting into each player’s impact on shot attempt differentials, where Subban is perhaps the best possession defenceman in the NHL the past four years — easily in the top five — and Weber is a consistent negative, despite playing with Josi.
Now Weber will move from playing with Josi to the 38-year-old Andrei Markov who, while supremely talented, is certainly not fleet of foot. Neither of these two defenders move particularly well, making this look like a recipe for disaster.
This trade is so lopsided that it’s hard to believe it happened at all. The Canadiens have saved all of $1.14 million in cap space, but committed to an older player for four extra years. They’re on the hook for Weber’s July 1 signing bonus of $8 million and will pay him a total of $54 million until he’s 41 years old. Subban is owed just $58 million until age 33.
Subban established the biggest charitable donation in North American sports history to directly help sick children and their parents in Montreal. He won a Norris Trophy and was nominated for another. He signed his bridge contract despite having every reason not to. He was the Canadiens’ best skater for the past five years straight. He was the their most valuable player last season while most others were faltering, he bought into poor coaching instruction despite the fact it hurt his game — and he still elevated. He was beloved by Elise Beliveau, and captured the heart of a city.
I'd take Weber in heart beat over Subban ... So Montreal did alright ... The only problem I see is your paying Weber till he's 40, but if you win the Stanley cup with Weber then that might be irrelevant. The Canadians added Shaw and Weber, two character guys who should make them better and their also interested in Ladd.
if you're an analytics guy ... weber is at the bottom end of a lot of stats ... he doesn't comp well with subban at all ...
Not an analytics guy ... an observer, Montreal took a gamble no doubt ... I never said they didn't, I like Webers size, toughness, hard nosed style, his hard shot and most importantly his leadership ... size and toughness was missed in Montreal. According to Cap friendly most of Webers money will be paid out by the time he's 36 or so and only owing him 6 million the last 4 years of the contract ... so at that point I guess Montreal would have plenty of options and going forward with a cap hit of 7 million or so and the rising nhl salaries and assuming the cap goes up Montreal will be ok. I'm no cap expert, so maybe I'm missing something. I also think these athletes can be somewhat product into the twilight of their career. Anyways it all doesn't matter if both perform as expected for the next few years.
Nashville took a bigger gamble that weber won't retire before his term ends ... then their on the hook for cap recapture money ... so gamble both ways, and maybe win win in the end. Only time will tell.
rumours stamkos to toronto pretty much done deal ... not reliable at all ... but that's what I'm hearing ...
haha ... so much for that!
I am quite surprised, I figured Toronto had him once he came in for a visit ... guess he didn't like what he heard, of all the teams I heard mentioned ... Tampa is closest to the a cup championship, it also doesn't hurt that Florida is a income tax free state.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I'd take Weber in heart beat over Subban ... So Montreal did alright ... The only problem I see is your paying Weber till he's 40, but if you win the Stanley cup with Weber then that might be irrelevant. The Canadians added Shaw and Weber, two character guys who should make them better and their also interested in Ladd.
if you're an analytics guy ... weber is at the bottom end of a lot of stats ... he doesn't comp well with subban at all ...
According to Cap friendly most of Webers money will be paid out by the time he's 36 or so and only owing him 6 million the last 4 years of the contract ... so at that point I guess Montreal would have plenty of options and going forward with a cap hit of 7 million or so and the rising nhl salaries and assuming the cap goes up Montreal will be ok. I'm no cap expert, so maybe I'm missing something. I also think these athletes can be somewhat product into the twilight of their career. Anyways it all doesn't matter if both perform as expected for the next few years.
The cap number is the cap number. It doesnt change.
The contract was front loaded. More was paid out early... but cash isnt an issue with Montreal.
^^^Cash is an issue wth all Canadian teams, the dollar is worth 20% less that the US dollar and these contracts are in US $$$, a good chunk of the Canadian teams business is based in the US...so there at a 20 % disadvantage already ... in the end id say money was a factor and they can walk away from Weber when he's 36 with minimal damage, probably the same time they'd walk away from Subban.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
The no income tax def helped Stamkos make a decision, paired with the fact that his health condition hurt the amount of money he could have made without the blood clots.
And so you see, I have come to doubt All that I once held as true I stand alone without beliefs The only truth I know is you.
If you are an analytics guy you aren't going to like Shea Weber. He's one of those guys you really need to watch every night to appreciate. I think Preds got the better end of the deal but it's not as lopsided as some people are acting.
Having said all of that as a Nashville season ticket holder I'm super excited to think about having Josi and Subban on the same team. Poile said yesterday they would be on the same pair but I think I would split them and have Subban/Ekholm and Josi/Ellis. I like the thought of having Josi or Subban out there for 48 minutes a night or so.
Comments
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Subban is signed for $9 million through his prime years
I also doubt sergachev will be nhl ready. Could be 2 to 3 years out
And ya, I think there was an EDM Mtl trade worked out for subban, involving the 4th pick so the Habs could take Dubois...chia alluded to a done deal that didn't materialize after the draft, and bergevin looked pissed when selecting sergachev. subban woulda been sick with mcdavid on the pp, but I'm stoked they got poolparty.
A plus for MTL is, if Weber retires before the contract ends, Nashville is on the hook for any recapture penalties.
Still, Subban is younger with a shorter contract. Don't forget, Nashville prob has the best defense in the league, even after losing Weber. They have enough guys to play back and let Subban do his thing.
All that I once held as true
I stand alone without beliefs
The only truth I know is you.
I'd take okposo on the oil. Esp if the eberle for shattenkirk rumours are true.
I think the great ones peak a little earlier, but he will continue to improve for a couple years. Being pushed by another young swede partner will be great for both of them. he'll surprise a lot of people in Edmonton. I really hope so anyway. But what do I know, I thought the Reinhart deal was decent value and he was ready... that hasn't panned out yet at all.
not sure what to think about the hall deal ... he should have worked a 3-way deal I think to get maybe a draft pick and a D guy ...
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p-k-subban-trade-may-worst-canadiens-history/
There is a tendency in the era of social media to overreact to big trades, pronouncing an instant winner and loser without all the details. Sometimes the “wait and see” approach is wiser and shows maturity.
This is not one of those times.
The Montreal Canadiens have made possibly the worst trade in the history of their franchise, for no reason at all. P.K. Subban is no longer a Canadien and will instead suit up for the Nashville Predators, with Shea Weber taking his place in Montreal. A one-for-one deal of two right-handed defencemen with enormous contracts, but only one of them is worth it.
Subban, 27, is four years younger than Weber, who turns 31 in August and is signed for six more seasons to Weber’s 10. Even if the two were equivalent talents, taking the older defenceman who is signed longer is a bad deal, but unfortunately for the Canadiens, Weber has been in sharp decline for a number of years.
No player in the NHL made more plays with the puck per minute played than Subban, while Weber ranked a lowly 216th of 256 in terms of involvement in the play, and it gets worse when you compare the two directly.
Not everything a player does is accounted for here, but this is a strong cross section of the responsibilities of an elite defenceman – and it’s not close to compare the two. Only Erik Karlsson compares favourably to Subban’s contribution in generating scoring chances, and Weber isn’t even among the top 30.
Subban is an elite transition player who moves the puck up ice with control better than almost anyone in the NHL, and again, Weber is nothing special there, as he relied on Roman Josi.
Weber is close to Subban when it comes to passing the puck out of the defensive zone, but this past season was the worst of Subban’s career in that regard, as Michel Therrien constantly harped on him to dump the puck out, which he did.
Carrying the puck out is the mark of an elite puck-moving defenceman, and Subban does that at more than three times the rate of Weber.
A similar story applies to loose puck recoveries, where Subban is the envy of the league for winning puck battles in the defensive zone and Weber ranks 202nd, between Braydon Coburn and Jack Johnson.
Even in something as simple as completed passes, Subban’s numbers blow Weber’s out of the water, and this is without even getting into each player’s impact on shot attempt differentials, where Subban is perhaps the best possession defenceman in the NHL the past four years — easily in the top five — and Weber is a consistent negative, despite playing with Josi.
Now Weber will move from playing with Josi to the 38-year-old Andrei Markov who, while supremely talented, is certainly not fleet of foot. Neither of these two defenders move particularly well, making this look like a recipe for disaster.
This trade is so lopsided that it’s hard to believe it happened at all. The Canadiens have saved all of $1.14 million in cap space, but committed to an older player for four extra years. They’re on the hook for Weber’s July 1 signing bonus of $8 million and will pay him a total of $54 million until he’s 41 years old. Subban is owed just $58 million until age 33.
Subban established the biggest charitable donation in North American sports history to directly help sick children and their parents in Montreal. He won a Norris Trophy and was nominated for another. He signed his bridge contract despite having every reason not to. He was the Canadiens’ best skater for the past five years straight. He was the their most valuable player last season while most others were faltering, he bought into poor coaching instruction despite the fact it hurt his game — and he still elevated. He was beloved by Elise Beliveau, and captured the heart of a city.
So what did he do wrong?
Nashville took a bigger gamble that weber won't retire before his term ends ... then their on the hook for cap recapture money ... so gamble both ways, and maybe win win in the end. Only time will tell.
SHEA WEBER #6
https://www.capfriendly.com/players/shea-weber
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I am quite surprised, I figured Toronto had him once he came in for a visit ... guess he didn't like what he heard, of all the teams I heard mentioned ... Tampa is closest to the a cup championship, it also doesn't hurt that Florida is a income tax free state.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
The contract was front loaded. More was paid out early... but cash isnt an issue with Montreal.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
All that I once held as true
I stand alone without beliefs
The only truth I know is you.
Having said all of that as a Nashville season ticket holder I'm super excited to think about having Josi and Subban on the same team. Poile said yesterday they would be on the same pair but I think I would split them and have Subban/Ekholm and Josi/Ellis. I like the thought of having Josi or Subban out there for 48 minutes a night or so.
Bring on the next lockout.
All that I once held as true
I stand alone without beliefs
The only truth I know is you.
Unfortunately not as good as Chicago.
Worst time of the year for hockey fans.