Sean Penn American Hero

Monster Rain

I can't take Sean Penn seriously when he goes on CNN and says things like, "There are members of the Tea Party that want to lynch Obama," and their platform is essentially, "get the N-word out of the White House." Gee, Sean, go over the top much? I can't believe he forgot to mention their plan to inject babies with AIDS and make it mandatory that all schools serve kitten meat for lunch every day. Everyone knows those are the 3rd and 4th bullet points on their agenda.

arq

Byrnzie wrote:

bennett13 wrote:

Fair and open elections, huh? Kinda like Saddam Hussein kept getting re-elected...running unopposed...with 100% of the vote....and 100% voter turnout!

Nah, not really kinda like Saddam Hussein at all:

http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/latin ... ising/1743

Venezuela: Democracy or Dictatorship?

by Michael Fox
posted May 11, 2007


U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice recently said, “I believe there is an assault on democracy in Venezuela and I believe that there are significant human rights issues.” She did not, however, say what she meant by “democracy.” We've selected essential characteristics of democracy and supplied key facts about them from the Chávez era. Is Secretary Rice correct? You be the judge.

Participation
75% of registered voters participated in the December 2006 election. More than 15,000 Communal Councils formed in 2006 that give neighborhoods power to make local decisions. Massive community participation in government social missions.

Free and Fair Elections
Eleven internationally observed national elections in last eight years. Government promotes voter registration. Independent National Electoral Council oversees elections. Standardized voting machines nationwide produce paper trail. Opposition claims of fraud exhaustively investigated. Constitution provides for recall of any elected official.

Freedom of Press
Hundreds of new independent community media outlets. 2005 reform increased state control of airwaves. Media highly polarized. Private media strongly critical of Chávez, supported coup in 2002 and oil lockout in 2002-2003. Public media strongly supportive. Non-renewal of RCTV license widely criticized; decision is constitutional.

Varied Political Parties
77 parties participated in December 2006 election. Chávez wants to consolidate support in one “United Socialist Party,” says parties that don't join “can leave.”

Freedom of Assembly, Expression, Speech
No extralegal retaliation by Chávez after 2002 coup. Political repression much decreased. Freedom to demonstrate highly respected. PROVEA, Venezuelan NGO, reports 4.5% of 1300 demonstrations in 2006 were “repressed, blocked, or obstructed,” a 70% decrease from 1997–98.

Private Property
Constitutional requirement of payment for nationalization honored. Opposition fears of unpaid expropriation not borne out. 2001 Land Law calls for unused state land and large, unproductive latifundio holdings to be redistributed to campesinos. Government promises to compensate at market rate for land.

Equality
Constitution covers gender, rights for the poor, campesinos, and indigenous, but omits race. Tremendous improvements for poor. Society still machista, individualist, and discriminatory. Treatment of non-Chávez supporters questionable: some government institutions do not employ people who supported 2004 Recall Referendum.

Checks and Balances
Five independent, autonomous branches of government. Grant of temporary “rule by decree” power criticized by opposition and U.S., but is constitutional; used by at least three other presidents. Chávez criticized for reform of Supreme Court; critics claim court stacking.

Transparency
Chávez fairly transparent, but many government officials are not. Little progress curing government and police corruption inherited from past. One of highest crime rates in the world; no improvement under Chávez. Prison conditions still abusive.

Constitution
1999 Constitution written with massive popular participation; passed with 72% support in referendum. Protects human rights and democracy; promotes social justice. Chávez has explicitly followed the Constitution. Constitutional Reform can start in National Assembly or at request of 15% of registered voters.

Economic Human Rights
Poverty and unemployment down, minimum wage and social spending up. Venezuela declared itself free of illiteracy in October 2005. Free universal education, including university. Free universal health care and drug rehabilitation. More than 180,000 cooperatives registered since 1998.

Community and Workplace Democracy
Chávez requires communities to organize to receive government aid. Co-ops, community councils, and co-managed factories promoted with state incentives. Government encourages endogenous development based on democracy and collective production.


YES! Magazine Graphic showing Venezuelan satisfaction with democracy. Source: Latinobarometro 1995-2006.

How beautiful, any gullible foreigner would be thrilled to live is such a tropical paradise!

You think you know about the bottom of the sea because you can see the beach from far away...

pjl44

arq wrote:

How beautiful, any gullible foreigner would be thrilled to live is such a tropical paradise!

You think you know about the bottom of the sea because you can see the beach from far away...

It's easier to cut-and-paste something from the internet that supports your position than to actually seek out a conversation with someone who can give you a firsthand account. I work with a couple guys who grew up in Cuba and it's fascinating to hear what daily life was like there.

arq

pjl44 wrote:

arq wrote:

...it's fascinating to hear what daily life was like there.

If by fascinating you meant f'ng horrible you're 100% right :thumbup:

pjl44

arq wrote:

pjl44 wrote:

...it's fascinating to hear what daily life was like there.

If by fascinating you meant f'ng horrible you're 100% right :thumbup:

No doubt. Fascinating for an outsider.

Idris

Monster Rain wrote:

I can't take Sean Penn seriously when he goes on CNN and says things like, "There are members of the Tea Party that want to lynch Obama," and their platform is essentially, "get the N-word out of the White House." Gee, Sean, go over the top much? I can't believe he forgot to mention their plan to inject babies with AIDS and make it mandatory that all schools serve kitten meat for lunch every day. Everyone knows those are the 3rd and 4th bullet points on their agenda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwVyHG9q ... ata_player

Vid clip of that part,

Byrnzie

arq wrote:

How beautiful, any gullible foreigner would be thrilled to live is such a tropical paradise!

Did you skip this part of the article?

Equality
Tremendous improvements for poor. Society still machista, individualist, and discriminatory. Treatment of non-Chávez supporters questionable: some government institutions do not employ people who supported 2004 Recall Referendum.


Transparency
Chávez fairly transparent, but many government officials are not. Little progress curing government and police corruption inherited from past. One of highest crime rates in the world; no improvement under Chávez. Prison conditions still abusive.

arq wrote:

You think you know about the bottom of the sea because you can see the beach from far away...

Do you speak for every Venezuelan? Because as far as the polls, and the voting booths are concerned, the majority of Venezuelans are perfectly happy with the Chavez government.

Jason P

It seems that opinions of Chavez either paint him as a saint or the devil. And those opinions have a direct coloration with people's opinions about the U.S.A. If someone can provide an example on these boards that contradicts my statement, I'll buy you a Coke at PJ25 in George, Washington.

I believe it is pretty clear that he is a dictator. He re-writes the rules to give himself a sole advantage. Sort of like turning the "cheats" on in a computer simulation of Sim-City. Arguing against that requires some pretty big horse-blinders.

But as for how his leadership affects the day-to-day life of Venezuelans, that would require a first-hand report from multiple people that actually live there.

pjl44

Figured I would bump this given the Wilson Ramos situation and how this has shone on a light on day-to-day life in Venezuela. Been reading lots of firsthand accounts from baseball players, scouts, and writers who have covered baseball down there. Not painting the sort of rosy picture that Chavez apologists like to. Here's a good start:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/m ... ramos.html

pjl44

And, of course, any opposition to Chavez truly flows through the democratic process and is free of intimidation..

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/12/world/ame ... index.html

Byrnzie

pjl44 wrote:

And, of course, any opposition to Chavez truly flows through the democratic process and is free of intimidation..

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/12/world/ame ... index.html

So this must clearly be the work of the Chavez government? I mean, it definitely has all the characteristics of a professional hit job, right? Two assholes on a motorbike who couldn't even get a shot on target?

And this is proof that the Chavez government is a brutal dictatorship that deserves to be overthrown?

pjl44

Byrnzie wrote:

pjl44 wrote:

And, of course, any opposition to Chavez truly flows through the democratic process and is free of intimidation..

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/12/world/ame ... index.html

So this must clearly be the work of the Chavez government? I mean, it definitely has all the characteristics of a professional hit job, right? Two assholes on a motorbike who couldn't even get a shot on target?

And this is proof that the Chavez government is a brutal dictatorship that deserves to be overthrown?

Who said anything about overthrowing? That certainly wouldn't be necessary in an open democracy. Have you read anything about the Wilson Ramos situation?

Byrnzie

pjl44 wrote:

Have you read anything about the Wilson Ramos situation?

Yes I have. Why? What does this have to do with the Chavez government?

pjl44

Byrnzie wrote:

pjl44 wrote:

Have you read anything about the Wilson Ramos situation?

Yes I have. Why? What does this have to do with the Chavez government?

What? It illuminates quite a different quality of life than what you have cut-and-pasted in this thread. MLB teams have either closed or passed on opening new academies for fear of seizure of the property by the government. Despite a beautiful landscape and abundance of fossil fuels, crime is through the roof and kidnapping is a cottage industry. The police are often involved in kidnapping plots and/or act as intermediaries for the ransom exchange. The extremely wealthy have gated off their homes and secured access to their roads while the majority of the country is relegated to dealing with the threats. With the abundance of stories and firsthand accounts, how the hell can you argue that it's not institutional?

Byrnzie

pjl44 wrote:

It illuminates quite a different quality of life than what you have cut-and-pasted in this thread.

Are you referring to this article that I posted above?

http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/latin ... ising/1743

Equality
Tremendous improvements for poor. Society still machista, individualist, and discriminatory. Treatment of non-Chávez supporters questionable: some government institutions do not employ people who supported 2004 Recall Referendum.


Transparency
Chávez fairly transparent, but many government officials are not. Little progress curing government and police corruption inherited from past. One of highest crime rates in the world; no improvement under Chávez. Prison conditions still abusive.

pjl44 wrote:

MLB teams have either closed or passed on opening new academies for fear of seizure of the property by the government.

Do you have any evidence to support this, or not?

pjl44 wrote:

Despite a beautiful landscape and abundance of fossil fuels, crime is through the roof and kidnapping is a cottage industry. The police are often involved in kidnapping plots and/or act as intermediaries for the ransom exchange. The extremely wealthy have gated off their homes and secured access to their roads while the majority of the country is relegated to dealing with the threats. With the abundance of stories and firsthand accounts, how the hell can you argue that it's not institutional?

Was the government involved in the Ramos case? Yes, or no?

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/a ... ng_ordeal/
'...Once investigators thought they had found the general area where Ramos might be, President Hugo Chavez personally authorized an aerial search mission and teams also set out on foot in the mountainous area, El Aissami said. He said the teams searched most of Friday and finally came upon the remote house where Ramos was being held. Chavez followed the operation “minute by minute,’’ the justice minister said.'

pjl44

In regards to the academies, the words came right out of the mouth of Brian Cashman, GM of the Yankees, and I heard them firsthand last night. Additionally, I've heard other executives describe how they have been extracting Venezuelan players out of the country to work them out (primarily) in the Dominican Republic. Teams that have done business there in the past are refusing to do so currently.

I never said the government had any direct involvement with the Ramos kidnapping. For the second time you seem to be projecting. They were quick to act because it became a global story. There is a pattern of kidnappings that have affected MLB players; some have made news, many others unreported. Read what happened to Henry Blanco's brother and Victor Zambrano's mother and cousin. For some reason there were no government sponsored search-and-rescue missions.

Seriously, what's your agenda? Venezuela has become one of the most dangerous countries in Latin America. I have no horse in the race and have been astonished at what I've read over the last few months.

Byrnzie

pjl44 wrote:

In regards to the academies, the words came right out of the mouth of Brian Cashman, GM of the Yankees, and I heard them firsthand last night. Additionally, I've heard other executives describe how they have been extracting Venezuelan players out of the country to work them out (primarily) in the Dominican Republic. Teams that have done business there in the past are refusing to do so currently.

I never said the government had any direct involvement with the Ramos kidnapping. For the second time you seem to be projecting. They were quick to act because it became a global story. There is a pattern of kidnappings that have affected MLB players; some have made news, many others unreported. Read what happened to Henry Blanco's brother and Victor Zambrano's mother and cousin. For some reason there were no government sponsored search-and-rescue missions.

Seriously, what's your agenda? Venezuela has become one of the most dangerous countries in Latin America. I have no horse in the race and have been astonished at what I've read over the last few months.

In other words, you have no evidence. Just hearsay and supposition. Pretty much like all I've ever gotten when I've asked people to explain their opposition to Chavez.

Venezuela isn't the only country with a high crime rate. How's the U.S doing on that score lately?

I'm not closed-minded when it comes to Venezuela. I just haven't heard anything to convince me otherwise. The country has many problems, but I see nothing to suggest it's the brutal dictatorship that many Americans like to portray it.

pjl44

Byrnzie wrote:

In other words, you have no evidence. Just hearsay and supposition. Pretty much like all I've ever gotten when I've asked people to explain their opposition to Chavez.

Venezuela isn't the only country with a high crime rate. How's the U.S doing on that score lately?

I'm not closed-minded when it comes to Venezuela. I just haven't heard anything to convince me otherwise. The country has many problems, but I see nothing to suggest it's the brutal dictatorship that many Americans like to portray it.

Firsthand accounts from people who have worked there, visited there, and lived there are the exact opposite of hearsay and supposition. Short of getting on a plane and meandering around yourself, what more are you looking for?

I had no formed opinion on the state of Venezuela six months ago. Since then I've heard an avalanche of stories from baseball executives, scouts, writers, and players, both native and non-native. These aren't love-it-or-leave-it hayseeds that have an axe to grind about his politics. They are people who have been immersed in the culture to varying degrees and for a variety of reasons. That's how I come to form an opinion. By keeping an open mind and listening. Again, I don't understand what your agenda is to just dismiss all of this evidence out of hand.

pjl44

Byrnzie wrote:

Venezuela isn't the only country with a high crime rate. How's the U.S doing on that score lately?

People don't need armed security details to travel freely around the U.S. If you're attempting a comparison, you're either using hyperbole to make a point you can't back up or truly are woefully uninformed about what's happening over there.

Byrnzie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/de ... dge-letter

Noam Chomsky pleads with Hugo Chávez to free judge in open letter

Linguistics professor appeals to Venezuelan president to 'correct injustice' over Maria Lourdes Afiuni, who is under house arrest


Virginia Lopez in Caracas and Tom Phillips
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 21 December 2011


Hugo Chávez's long-time supporter Noam Chomsky has issued a renewed appeal to the Venezuelan president to free a judge who was controversially jailed two years ago, prompting criticism from human rights activists and academics.

Maria Lourdes Afiuni, 48, has been imprisoned since December 2009 and is currently under house arrest in the capital, Caracas.

In an open letter to the Venezuelan president, Chomsky, a linguistics professor from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, urged Chávez to "correct an injustice".

"This is an appeal for the release of Judge Afiuni on humanitarian grounds after two years," Chomsky told the Guardian on Wednesday in a telephone interview. "As the letter says I hope President Chávez will release her. Presumably these are regular Christmas pardons."

Activists, including Chomsky, have made repeated calls for Afiuni's release, partly on the grounds of ill health. Afiuni is a cancer patient who underwent an abdominal hysterectomy while in jail.

But a series of high-profile interventions – including a previous Chomsky letter, published in July – have so far fallen on deaf ears. On 13 December a judge in Venezuela extended the house arrest by two years, leaving supporters and relatives despondent and prompting the latest appeal.

"President Chávez himself is in a courageous fight against cancer. For this reason, he is certainly in a position to personally understand the importance of receiving adequate treatment and marshalling your inner strength for survival," Chomsky writes in his latest letter.

"The Christmas-time pardons are an appropriate occasion for President Chávez to correct an injustice and avoid greater damage to her health by a humanitarian release," he added.

Afiuni's troubles began on 10 December 2009 when she granted bail to Eligio Cedeño, a businessman and banker with ties to the Venezuelan opposition. Cedeño had been jailed on charges that he had evaded currency controls and, on release, fled to the United States.

Afiuni's ruling triggered a furious public reaction from the president. Chávez took to the airwaves claiming the judge deserved 30 years in prison and suggesting that in another era she would have been hauled before a firing squad.

"This judge should get the maximum penalty … that judge has to pay for what she has done," he said.

Afiuni was arrested and packed off to the Los Teques female prison on the gritty outskirts of Caracas where she was reportedly met with squalid conditions and death threats from inmates she had sent to the jail.

In February this year – following a barrage of criticism from human rights groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch – Afiuni was transferred from the prison to her home, where she has remained under house arrest.

"We don't expect much because this country's justice system is biased," the judge's brother, Nelson Afiuni, said this month. "Most prosecutors and judges respond to the interests of the government, and it's clear the government wants my sister to remain isolated."

In his latest letter Chomsky highlighted the physical suffering that Afiuni, who is a single mother, is said to have undergone in jail.

While in prison Afiuni "experienced grave abuses that led to a severe deterioration of her physical and psychological condition", the American linguist wrote.

While the judge was now under house arrest, "she is prohibited from speaking to the press and from receiving solar rays".

Chomsky added: "After more than two years in custody, there are no guarantees of a fair trial. I am convinced that Judge Afiuni has suffered enough and should be released."

Chomsky's letter is part of a renewed but diplomatically worded push for Afiuni's release.

Speaking to the Guardian on Wednesday, Charlie Clements, director of Harvard's Carr Centre for Human Rights Policy, said: "We hope that given that this is the time of year that the president makes pardons, and that he himself was released under this same scheme, he decides to free her."

"I sincerely hope that the judge and her daughter don't have to suffer any longer," added Clements, who said he was speaking in a personal capacity. "For the Venezuelan judicial system this should come as an international embarrassment."

Leonardo Vivas, a fellow at the Carr centre, described the latest appeal as "a very cordial call for Afiuni to be freed on humanitarian grounds".

"We don't know what the reaction will be," he added.

Despite his appeal for Afiuni's release, Chomsky has been critical of the media's coverage of the case. On Wednesday he suggested the case had received so much media attention only "because Venezuela is an official enemy" [of the United States].

"I am involved in these appeals all the time but I get no calls unless it is an enemy of the US," Chomsky said. "This is more a comment on the media than on the case."