Palestinian Statehood

Idris

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Idris wrote:

Political pit bull Baird bares teeth in offering Canada's defence of Israel at UN

http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/polit ... lang=en-ca

OTTAWA - Canada used its United Nations speaking slot Monday to lambaste opponents of Israel as no better than the appeasers who allowed fascism and communism to flourish before the Second World War.

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird delivered Canada's views to the General Assembly in a speech that put meat on the bones of the Harper government's unflinching support of Israel."Just as fascism and communism were the great struggles of previous generations, terrorism is the great struggle of ours. And far too often, the Jewish state is on the front line of our struggle and its people the victims of terror," says a prepared text of Baird's remarks.

"Canada will not accept or stay silent while the Jewish state is attacked for defending its territory and its citizens.
The Second World War taught us all the tragic price of 'going along' just to 'get along.'"Baird made no direct mention of the Holocaust in which six million Jews died at the hands of Nazi Germany. But he evoked the era when he quoted Winston Churchill as saying "an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."

is this dumbass really an elected official? so it is not just the us where people in government are delusional?


well the cat is out of the bag now. the us and canada blindly support the occupation, the blockade, and the israeli government. there is no secret about it...

Mr gimme! You know, America does not own the rights to stupid politicians

Bizarro world!

usamamasan1

1,100 new homes on their land. About time they start building again.

gimmesometruth27

usamamasan1 wrote:

1,100 new homes on their land. About time they start building again.

:roll:

gimmesometruth27

settlement expansion NOW??? at this moment when the palestinians have just gone to the un requesting recognition?? this is a slap in the face to the palestinians and the international community. it is stuff like this that is turning the world against the israeli government, and their policies. then netanyahu is going to claim the role of victim if something were to happen now as a result of this latest insult...

Chip McFlennigan

The grand politicians that you all love to vote for have far too much to lose should there ever be peaceful resolution in the Gaza region.

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

1,100 new homes on their land. About time they start building again.

I asked you a question in the other thread which you ignored, and now I'll ask it again: If you had been alive in the 1930's-1940's would you have supported the Nazis conquering of much of Europe and it's ethnic cleansing of 'undesirables'? And if not, why not?

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

1,100 new homes on their land. About time they start building again.

By the way, It's not their land. The settlements are illegal under international law.

What part of that don't you understand?


U.N Resolution 242 refers to the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war'.


http://www.btselem.org/settlements/international_law
'The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.

The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.

The establishment of settlements results in the violation of the rights of Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe the right to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.

The illegality of the settlements under international humanitarian law does not affect the status of the settlers. The settlers constitute a civilian population by any standard, and include children, who are entitled to special protection. Although some of the settlers are part of the security forces, this fact has absolutely no bearing on the status of the other residents of the settlements.'



Though I do realize that you actually have zero interest in this issue and merely post here to bait and antagonize people.

Commy

israeli's are so scared of another holocaust they are willing to put it on someone else.


there is no question israel is violent. there is no question israel is brutal. th3ere is no question isreal's are ruthless. yeah its been bad, but what's the timeline here? how long is it gonna take the jews to get over the holocaust?

Byrnzie

Commy wrote:

israeli's are so scared of another holocaust they are willing to put it on someone else.


there is no question israel is violent. there is no question israel is brutal. th3ere is no question isreal's are ruthless. yeah its been bad, but what's the timeline here? how long is it gonna take the jews to get over the holocaust?

The holocaust is just an excuse. The Zionists began laying claims on Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, long before the holocaust.


Michael Neumann:
'Zionism was from the start an ill-considered and menacing experiment in ethnic nationalism. Neither history nor religion could justify it. The Jews had no claim to Palestine and no right to build a state there. Their growing need for refuge may have provided some limited, inadequate, short-term moral sustenance for the Zionist project, but it could not render that project legitimate. The mere fact of later suffering cannot retroactively convert a wrong into a right: my attempt to usurp your land does not become legitimate simply because I am wrongly beaten by someone else, far away, when my project is near completion. Nor did the well founded desperation of the Jews during the Nazi era provide any justification for Zionism; at most it provided an excuse. If someone is murdering my family in Germany, that does not entitle me to your house in Boston, or my "people" to your country. All Jews fleeing Hitler were indeed entitled to some refuge. One might even suppose that it was the obligation of the whole world, including the Palestinians, to do what they could to provide such refuge. But this is not the whole story.
For one thing, those with ample means to provide refuge, and those who are responsible for the need, have by far the greater share of responsibility. The Palestinians fell into neither category. Even more important, there is an enormous difference between providing refuge and providing a sovereign state. No amount of danger or suffering requires this, and indeed it may conflict with the demand for refuge. Simply to control one's own affairs isn't always the safest alternative. Arguably, for instance, the Jews were safer in the United States, where they are not sovereign, than they ever were in Israel. This is not only a fact but was always a reasonable expectation, so the need for refuge is also no basis for Zionism...

If there are any great lessons to be learned from the Nazi era , they are to watch out for fascism, racism, and ethnic nationalism. Supporting Israel hardly embodies these lessons.'

Commy

Byrnzie wrote:

Commy wrote:

israeli's are so scared of another holocaust they are willing to put it on someone else.


there is no question israel is violent. there is no question israel is brutal. th3ere is no question isreal's are ruthless. yeah its been bad, but what's the timeline here? how long is it gonna take the jews to get over the holocaust?

The holocaust is just an excuse. The Zionists began laying claims on Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, long before the holocaust.


Michael Neumann:
'Zionism was from the start an ill-considered and menacing experiment in ethnic nationalism. Neither history nor religion could justify it. The Jews had no claim to Palestine and no right to build a state there. Their growing need for refuge may have provided some limited, inadequate, short-term moral sustenance for the Zionist project, but it could not render that project legitimate. The mere fact of later suffering cannot retroactively convert a wrong into a right: my attempt to usurp your land does not become legitimate simply because I am wrongly beaten by someone else, far away, when my project is near completion. Nor did the well founded desperation of the Jews during the Nazi era provide any justification for Zionism; at most it provided an excuse. If someone is murdering my family in Germany, that does not entitle me to your house in Boston, or my "people" to your country. All Jews fleeing Hitler were indeed entitled to some refuge. One might even suppose that it was the obligation of the whole world, including the Palestinians, to do what they could to provide such refuge. But this is not the whole story.
For one thing, those with ample means to provide refuge, and those who are responsible for the need, have by far the greater share of responsibility. The Palestinians fell into neither category. Even more important, there is an enormous difference between providing refuge and providing a sovereign state. No amount of danger or suffering requires this, and indeed it may conflict with the demand for refuge. Simply to control one's own affairs isn't always the safest alternative. Arguably, for instance, the Jews were safer in the United States, where they are not sovereign, than they ever were in Israel. This is not only a fact but was always a reasonable expectation, so the need for refuge is also no basis for Zionism...

If there are any great lessons to be learned from the Nazi era , they are to watch out for fascism, racism, and ethnic nationalism. Supporting Israel hardly embodies these lessons.'

so jews are ruthless by nature? i don't buy it. they have been dealt a shitty hand and are using that hand to do unto others, so to speak. there's a reason for everything.

Byrnzie

Commy wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Commy wrote:

israeli's are so scared of another holocaust they are willing to put it on someone else.


there is no question israel is violent. there is no question israel is brutal. th3ere is no question isreal's are ruthless. yeah its been bad, but what's the timeline here? how long is it gonna take the jews to get over the holocaust?

The holocaust is just an excuse. The Zionists began laying claims on Palestine at the end of the 19th Century, long before the holocaust.


Michael Neumann:
'Zionism was from the start an ill-considered and menacing experiment in ethnic nationalism. Neither history nor religion could justify it. The Jews had no claim to Palestine and no right to build a state there. Their growing need for refuge may have provided some limited, inadequate, short-term moral sustenance for the Zionist project, but it could not render that project legitimate. The mere fact of later suffering cannot retroactively convert a wrong into a right: my attempt to usurp your land does not become legitimate simply because I am wrongly beaten by someone else, far away, when my project is near completion. Nor did the well founded desperation of the Jews during the Nazi era provide any justification for Zionism; at most it provided an excuse. If someone is murdering my family in Germany, that does not entitle me to your house in Boston, or my "people" to your country. All Jews fleeing Hitler were indeed entitled to some refuge. One might even suppose that it was the obligation of the whole world, including the Palestinians, to do what they could to provide such refuge. But this is not the whole story.
For one thing, those with ample means to provide refuge, and those who are responsible for the need, have by far the greater share of responsibility. The Palestinians fell into neither category. Even more important, there is an enormous difference between providing refuge and providing a sovereign state. No amount of danger or suffering requires this, and indeed it may conflict with the demand for refuge. Simply to control one's own affairs isn't always the safest alternative. Arguably, for instance, the Jews were safer in the United States, where they are not sovereign, than they ever were in Israel. This is not only a fact but was always a reasonable expectation, so the need for refuge is also no basis for Zionism...

If there are any great lessons to be learned from the Nazi era , they are to watch out for fascism, racism, and ethnic nationalism. Supporting Israel hardly embodies these lessons.'

so jews are ruthless by nature? i don't buy it. they have been dealt a shitty hand and are using that hand to do unto others, so to speak. there's a reason for everything.

Where in that piece does he say that Jews are ruthless by nature? He doesn't. Those are your words.

Commy

so what's the reason? i offered a solution as to why jews are so terrible to their neighbors, i thought you had another reason.

Byrnzie

Commy wrote:

so what's the reason? i offered a solution as to why jews are so terrible to their neighbors, i thought you had another reason.

The reason is Zionism, which promotes ethnic nationalism.

Not all Jews support Zionism. In fact many Jews are outright opposed to it, such as Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, and these guys: http://www.jatonyc.org/

Jews Against the Occupation

Our Mission

Jews Against the Occupation is an organization of progressive, secular and religious Jews of all ages throughout the New York City area advocating peace through justice for Palestine and Israel. Our points of unity are as follows:



NO OCCUPATION IN OUR NAME


We as American Jews reject the Israeli government assertion that it is "necessary" to subjugate Palestinians for the sake of keeping Jews safe. We assert that security can only come from mutual respect, and that the occupation of Palestine is only worsening the position of Jews in the Middle East and around the world.


RESTORE HUMAN & CIVIL RIGHTS


The Israeli military fires bone-crushing rubber bullets and live ammunition at unarmed Palestinian civilians engaged in peaceful protest, failing to distinguish between peaceful and violent resistance. The Israeli government has been demolishing Palestinian houses and crops in the Occupied Territories, while allowing Jewish settlers -- many of them American -- to illegally occupy the same land.


END U.S. AID TO ISRAEL


The U.S. government provides more aid to Israel than to any other country—the vast majority of this is for military purposes. Billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars have propped up the occupation and fueled the Israeli government’s war machine (as well as disguising the occupation’s true cost). This aid must end.



STOP ECONOMIC ATTACKS ON PALESTINE


The Israeli government has attacked the Palestinian economy by: closing Palestinian banks; imposing extreme taxes on business; withdrawing operating licenses; destroying industrial equipment; bulldozing farmland and banning fishing; restricting workers' movement; controlling the export of Palestinian goods; closing the borders of the Occupied Territories; and refusing to fund infrastructure like water and electricity -- even in Arab villages within Israel.



LET PALESTINIANS RETURN HOME


Thousands of Palestinians were driven out of their houses and off of their farms during and after the creation of Israel. They must be allowed to return to their homeland.


ANTI-SEMITISM VS. CRITIQUES OF ISRAEL


Jews Against the Occupation stands firmly against anti-Semitism and racism in all its forms. We see our historical struggle against anti- Semitism--a cornerstone of European white supremacist ideology--as inherently linked to all struggles against oppression. We therefore stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people in their struggle for freedom.


Judaism is a cultural and religious identity, which must not be equated with Zionism, a political movement. Criticism of the state of Israel, its policies, or the idea of a Jewish state does not by itself constitute anti-Semitism. Dismissing critics of Israel or of Zionism as "anti-Semitic" is a means of stifling debate and masking the impact of the occupation.

Commy

Byrnzie wrote:

Commy wrote:

so what's the reason? i offered a solution as to why jews are so terrible to their neighbors, i thought you had another reason.

The reason is Zionism, which promotes ethnic nationalism.

Not all Jews support Zionism. In fact many Jews are outright opposed to it.

i realize that.



zionism has roots in tragedy. that's my point.

Byrnzie

Commy wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Commy wrote:

so what's the reason? i offered a solution as to why jews are so terrible to their neighbors, i thought you had another reason.

The reason is Zionism, which promotes ethnic nationalism.

Not all Jews support Zionism. In fact many Jews are outright opposed to it.

i realize that.



zionism has roots in tragedy. that's my point.

Ilan Pappe - The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine:
'...the more critical view today sees the Zionist drive to settle in Palestine, instead of other possible locations, as closely interwoven with nineteenth-century Christian millenarianism and European colonialism. The various Protestant missionary societies and their governments in the European Concert competed among themselves over the future of a 'Christian' Palestine that they wanted to pry away from the Ottoman Empire. The more religious among the aspirants in the West regarded the return of Jews to Palestine as a chapter in the divine scheme, precipitating the second coming of Christ and the creation of a pietist state there. This religious zeal inspired pious politicians, such as Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister during the first World War, to act with even greater commitment for the success of the Zionist project. This did not prevent him from supplying his government at the same time with a host of 'strategic', rather than messianic, considerations for why Palestine should be colonised by the Zionist movement, which were mostly infused by his own overriding distrust of, and and disdain for, 'Arabs' and 'Mohammedans', as he called the Palestinians.'


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bro ... 75395.html
'No person fearful of being a victim can be rewarded with special rights or special powers. If we -- Americans, Israelis, everyone -- want to deserve our freedom, we must agree to live in a moral world where people are responsible for themselves. And just as we cannot be punished for the things that our parents did, so the crimes we commit can never be justified by the things our parents suffered.'

Commy

Ilan Pappe said it wow/. well i'm not convinced. and huffington post, nice. but to think tha'ts gonna change my mind you must be out your mind, as maynard puts it. byrnzie i agree with everything you post, fyi. why you're pushing me on this i have no idea.

Byrnzie

Once again it's made perfectly clear by the Israeli's that they have zero interest in a peaceful settlement and are only interested in building more illegal, racist 'facts on the ground'. The Israeli leadership clearly holds the Americans in utter contempt. The U.S is Israel's lap-dog.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15085308
Western powers angered as Israel agrees settler homes
27 September 2011

'...The chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the decision represented a rejection of a proposal by the Quartet of Mid East negotiators - the US, the EU, Russia and the UN - for new talks between the Palestinians and Israelis, expected to be made officially on Friday.

"With this, Israel is responding to the Quartet's statement with 1,100 'NOs'," he said.'

Byrnzie

Commy wrote:

Ilan Pappe said it wow/. well i'm not convinced. and huffington post, nice. but to think tha'ts gonna change my mind you must be out your mind, as maynard puts it. byrnzie i agree with everything you post, fyi. why you're pushing me on this i have no idea.

Not pushing, just clarifying.

Commy

Byrnzie wrote:

Commy wrote:

Ilan Pappe said it wow/. well i'm not convinced. and huffington post, nice. but to think tha'ts gonna change my mind you must be out your mind, as maynard puts it. byrnzie i agree with everything you post, fyi. why you're pushing me on this i have no idea.

Not pushing, just clarifying.

fair enough.

catefrances

usamamasan1 wrote:

1,100 new homes on their land. About time they start building again.

their land??? how do you figure that?