GOP hurting economic recovery....
Smellyman
Asia Posts: 4,524
On purpose? I think so too. It is amazing how every step of the way Obama has been blocked by the GOP. They don't give a shit. They are just trying to get Bachmann/Perry (shudder) in office. Screw the people.
"And worse than doing nothing, the actions of lawmakers are helping create the kind of uncertainty abhorred by business leaders, experts say. Two prime examples: The battle over funding federal agencies that brought the government to the brink of a shutdown. And the congressionally-created debt ceiling crisis. What they have done is legislate uncertainty -- and who needs this? They should just go home and sleep," said Michael Cheah, a bond fund manager and adjunct professor at New York University. "This is not lawmaking. I don't even know what to call it."
http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/08/news/economy/congress_gridlock_tax/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=hp_bn2
"And worse than doing nothing, the actions of lawmakers are helping create the kind of uncertainty abhorred by business leaders, experts say. Two prime examples: The battle over funding federal agencies that brought the government to the brink of a shutdown. And the congressionally-created debt ceiling crisis. What they have done is legislate uncertainty -- and who needs this? They should just go home and sleep," said Michael Cheah, a bond fund manager and adjunct professor at New York University. "This is not lawmaking. I don't even know what to call it."
http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/08/news/economy/congress_gridlock_tax/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=hp_bn2
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take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Please, folks, think about these terms that get tossed around by even some of the most well intention:
"Recovery", "Spur the economy", "Economic stimulus".
Those terms are far more popular today than concepts like: "renewable resources", "conservation" and "sustainability" which have been softened or given a bad rap. But which of these sets of terms are really, in the long run, in our best interest?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I am always perplexed how and why we need a coninuously growing economy. It is not good for the earth.
You see the numbers and stats all of the time, about how people are saving more, spending less, etc... This is a good thing! I guess it's better for the economy when people spend well beyond their means and buy everything on credit.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
It does seem that way! The thing I find odd is that it seems that in general there is more attention paid to what is "good for the economy" than what is good for people and the planet as a whole. What I want to know is- what is good about a "good economy" on a planet that at the rate we are chewing it up will become inhospitable to our species, not to mention any other large animals? If a "good economy" is one in which more goods are produced and consumed utilizing more and more finite resources with the intent to keep up the gross national product (or some other similar unsustainable concept) isn't that kind of economy one which is self-destructive? Of course there is a line of thinking that says that the sooner we screw up the environment the sooner the human species will become extinct the sooner the planet can go back to establishing a natural driven ecological balance. Personally, I like the idea of a planet with people on it.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Your conclusion ignores the fact that everything Obama has done has hurt the economy since he took office. (yay! 9.1% unemployment - but 15% poverty - bravismo! I know before it was Bush's fault, and now it's the new majority's fault. 2 years of total political dominance is no opportunity to get anything done around these parts). So, stopping him at every turn is exactly what the country needed. Now, I'm not saying we need these other clowns, either.
My hope would be cooler heads will prevail and we'll end up with a more moderate President, which is what has proven successful in the past. Not a glorified community organizer. Not a bible thumping madperson. A moderate.
Extremes will always hurt the country.
Just my two cents: I just spent the past two weekends--including PJ20--with two high school friends who work in the financial industry: one as a commodities trader and one, an ivy-leaguer (oohhh, evil..) who just semi-retired form the largest trading company in the nation at 31 and started his own company. The bottom line: both are millionaires in their early 30s and both are geniuses when it comes to finance, economics, the banking industry, and the markets.
They share a consensus:
1. the bull shit of Obama is anti-business and hurting the economy is downright idiotic.
2. The highest level of Wall St, Banking, etc, execs, care nothing about the American public, and only care about ways that they can make $0 million a year instead of $30 million a year
3. trickle-down economics is the most laughable idea
4. low taxes on "job creators" is just as laughable as trickle-down. Where are the jobs now that taxes (esp. capital gains) have been at the lowest level in decades?
5. the Tea Party are nothing but corporate (Koch) funded, zombified, brainless hicks/fools who are rallying and voting against their best interests.
6. raise taxes on traders and those in the industry who contribute nothing to society
7. The Right should be praised for their amazing ability at spreading propaganda to the uneducated, ignorant masses
You can doubt me all you want, but I would say it is not a smart thing to doubt those who are millionaires in their early 30s and those who have actual experience and knowledge--two things which are obviously not as important as the opinions of fools who know nothing.
I never said it was the Truth. I was simply relaying the thoughts of two well-educated, experienced, highly successful individuals who have 100x the knowledge of economics, the markets, and the financial and banking industries that most others have.
its sad that the republicans have moved so far to the right that obama is seen a lefty, when in the rest of the world he is viewed as a centerist at least and to most he is pretty much a center right politiician
Hahaha, ok tough guy, time to calm down. They are all opinions.
I think a lot of their opinions make sense and some of it is their own bs that they bought into. Man, it's friday, have a beer, relax.
I am not saying I don't believe you, but could you elaborate about the points they made in bold. I am interested in a discussion, not trying to antagonize.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
The point of this post?
I am quite relaxed. After being told that I do not need to go down to my father's house to help some more with the flooding damage, and since I took today off to do just that, I have already smoked a bowl, and I plan on going to lunch where I will surely knock back a few Dogfish. Way ahead of ya....
If I jumped the gun, then so be it. I won't apologize for being stressed out and angry about the state of American society: See brianlux's post on why he's leaving AMT. I am taking it a step further and heading to Europe in less than a year. I can't wait.
Also, your mocking, smug reply was unnecessary.
Because everyone always thinks the couple of people they talk to have all the answers. And I thought it was funny the way you added your "2 cents" but then called people that don't agree with each of those points idiots and fools that know nothing.
Look, I'm sure your friends are terrific at what they do. That hardly makes them experts in all areas. And your post went far away from focusing on fiscal policy and just started to be a bash the tea party and republicans and the people that vote for them post that I've seen a million times. I doubt your millionaire friends are experts on any of that.
Have fun in Europe. I would like to travel back there again soon. Some beautiful places there. And great choice in beer by the way. Sorry to hear about your families flooding damage as well. Have a great weekend.
By the way, I will apologize as I should have added more text with my opinions of your points rather than just the single statement. So, for that I'm sorry, you are correct, you didn't deserve the mocking.
not that it's an excuse, but I love the feeling of Fridays!
I will try my best. They are the ones with the deep financial, economic knowledge; I am just a lowly English teacher.
1. They cite the fact that CEO pay is up (in a recession) and the fact that the market was experiencing a turnaround in April of this year--it peaked at roughly 12,800. They acknowledge that the rich and the corporate will begin to do better coming out of a recession more quickly than the middle class or Main Street, but they unfortunately see this trend not happening in the current situation. Many companies are turning record profits, but are also laying off workers. They also see that Obama has conceded the fact that he needs to work with (pander in their words) to the corporate elite to have any type of economic improvement begin in this country. They feel that he has done that. This is a consumer driven system and people simply do not have money. it is in the hands of the few. IN one of my friend's words, and in response to those who say that the rich pay the bulk in taxes: "they should! they have all the money"
3. Well, they simply do not see any trickle down when the number of millionaires is increasing and the number of those living in poverty is increasing as well, along with a declining middle-class that has seen wage stagnation for decades. people work longer hours for lower pay. And, both parents are now doing the same. They see the trickle-down as maybe successful on the global scale, but not in this country. The same can be said for the job-creators. They are not creating jobs in the U.S., but instead creating jobs in (mostly) Asia and central America. They do fault NAFTA a bit.
5. There's not much more I can say about this. they don't see the point in middle and lower class, mostly blue-collar workers taking to the streets to protect the interests of the rich and the corporate, the same people who are selling out he U.S. to line their pockets an send jobs overseas. They see it as a giant contradiction. Why are those who will not be affected by tax increases, rallying against them? Why are those who would benefit form infrastructure projects, medicare, and SS, taking to the streets in opposition?
6. One friend says this (and I paraphrase because he has said this often): "I make over 100K a month sitting in front of a computer screen and I play a game. Nurses, teachers, fireman, soldiers, etc. don't see that in a year. Something is seriously wrong. I contribute absolutely nothing to society, so I have no problem paying a higher tax rate to fund education, infrastructure, medicare, SS, etc."
Another friend, at PJ20, said this 9again, I paraphrase): "I'm a smart guy. I graduated #3 in our class, went to UPenn, and then went to work for the largest trading company in the country, as a trader, then as a manager. I could have gone into the sciences, I could have been an engineer; I could have done something better to help people and to make a difference. But instead, I chose this because I love the markets and I love finance. I should give back; and I should give back to those who contribute to society, which is something I don't feel that I do"
Hope this helps.
Sorry for the caps, just a way to differentiate.
I never said that they have all the answers. I was just offering the opinions of those with knowledge and experience. This is a good thing. And, never did I say that their word was the Truth. I also never called out specific people. We all know people who talk when they shouldn't; we all know that the discourse of this country is grounded in (at times uneducated) opinion, when facts and the words of people with knowledge are too easily dismissed. I don't believe I bashed anyone; I don't have the go to do that. I was simply using the words of individuals who are quite angry and fed up by a movement that they see as invalid. And I will admit, I should have focused on econ/finance/the markets.
Stupid comments on my part. I apologize to all, especially "cincy." I think we are all a little stressed out these days, some more than others.
But, the smoke did help me chill a bit, as it always does! And the Dogfish will taste so good.
That dogfish will taste awesome!!!
Anyhow, your friends opinions on the financial areas (specifically about their own job's value) were very interesting. So thanks for that part.
Really, I think the ones hurting the economy are all of the politicians, not just the GOP. Although, it would be nice to see the current GOP leadership work with the president on this jobs bill. I'm not opposed to some tax increases, but I think they should be targeted more specifically, and I certainly don't think a family with a combined income of $250,000 = "millionaires and billionaires" as Obama does. You tax those people and they still feel it.... and they scale back their buying... and you hurt the economy. Just my 2 cents.
Yes. All Pols deserve some blame. And yes, we can raise it to 500K or maybe more
And if we run into each other at a show, the Dogfish is one me. I will recognize you by your Boomer Esiason jersey
That did, thanks. A little back up info is always nice.
1,3. CEO pay is up, companies are doing better, but why does anyone think that adding taxes is going to change the practices of MNC's? they are called that for a reason. The employees shouldn't be required to give more simply because they are successful. In fact, I would take it further and say I bet income tax revenue would increase if we took away tax loopholes and deductions and gave it a flat rate for everyone. But that doesn't seem to interest anyone.
5. Some people, believe it or not, do not want the government taking care of them. They feel that is in their best interest to be self sufficient and to never have to rely on the government for their every day needs. I am sure some are confused, and not sure why they support those types of policies, but I can tell you, I would rather live in a world of self sufficient people than live in a world where we all rely on a government program to survive. I am one of those people. I also think it is rather disingenious to call people who support that line of thinking as zombified, brainless hicks/fools who are rallying and voting against their best interests. Not one of those things applies to me. I truly believe the best thing someone can do for someone else is to teach them how to do things on your their own.
6. why do they need the government to take their money and give it to people? can they not figure out how to do that on their own?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
1, 3. Closing loopholes is synonymous with increasing tax revenues in our conversations. I should have clarified that. I, and they, do not feel a flat rate is a good option. it effects the poor much more than it does the rich. There is an imbalance there. It isn't always the individuals fault that what they chose to do in life does not pay well. Also, in this society, those who are paid the best, aren't the ones who provide importance services to society.
5. I don't think they see it as people simply not wanting gov't to take care of them. And, I agree, I too would rather live in a nation of self-sufficient people, but this society unfortunately is not structured that way. Gov't programs help many people in this country--the large majority I would say. I don't feel that SS, medicare, etc are any indication of the threat of falling into an Orwellian nightmare. I, and they, feel that this isn't a threat at all. And, I have no problem with people not having health insurance or opting out of SS. I don't think it is the best plan, but if someone wants to, then so be it.
And yes, calling these people names is uncalled for. They both simply seem to dislike the platform of the Tea Party and they simply feel that they do not have their own best interests in mind. I am doing some volunteer work--flood cleanup--where I live this weekend, but I still might go to a Tea Party rally tomorrow. i want some firsthand experience. I hope I have time.
6.They donate to charities. I know both also gave $$ to Haiti and Japan. They give money to homeless shelters and the ASPCA and Humane society. As far as infrastructure projects and Medicare, this money is funneled through the gov't. They can't do this on their own. I would love to see an Infrastructure Bank where private and public donations are possible.
Time for lunch!! Finally!
1.3 I think a flat tax is the fairest of all methods other than a simple VAT. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. The rich still pay more. Simply closing loopholes won't necessarily increase revenue. Confiscating half of everyone's wealth would increase revenues, doesn't mean it would be a reliable sustainable practice. And you are right, it isn't always someone's fault that what they do in life may not pay the most. But without a doubt if someone chooses to do something, it is their fault they don't make a lot of money. It was their choice, who would be at fault in that situation? If someone chooses to be a teacher and they are shocked by how much they make, they are either too stupid to teach my child, or were to clueless to pick a career that made more money if that was what was important to them. The state of MN pays about half its budget to education, yet we fall yearly in terms of effectiveness.
The idea that the government simply doesn't have enough to spend is strange to me. The idea that the government needs more revenue is strange. They (feds) get nearly 850 billion in income taxes a year, and 2 times that much in other revenue. Trillions of dollars. There is plenty to take care of everyone in that amount; they don't need more. That is enough to literally give everyone ~6000 dollars. Are you telling me there isn't enough as it is now to sustain the country? Of course it is. But going into debt, devaluing our currency, incomplete programs based purely on politics, these things hurt more than they help. So we are left with a jaded population full of class warfare from all directions, and a government that nearly shut down because they could not function with the idea they couldn't borrow anymore. what happens when they really cannot borrow anymore?
it isn't really about an Orwellian threat. It is about people choosing their future. The program of social security falls apart if you let people opt out. The disabled should be protected by something else, and there should be an opt in, not opt out, program if you so choose for social security.
This idea that no one will be taken care of because these programs don't exist is short-sided and really does underestimate the American people. Many feel it is our obligation to take care of each other(including Ron Paul), human to human, but it isn't the governments job to decide, or to take from someone else to make those things happen. Keep in mind we have had social safety net programs for a very long time, with the great society programs adding to it, and what do we have today, more and more people who cannot take care of themselves on their own. Some want to blame this on the rich trying to get richer, some want to blame it on the people themselves for being in that situation, the real answer lies somewhere in between. So if we cannot nail down the cause, how can we spend in a way that is best for everyone?
I think ultimately many conservatives and many liberals want the same ends, just will never agree on the means...sad really.
kind of rambled there, trying to do this and work at the same time. hope it made sense
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
It does make sense. I would indicate where I agree and disagree, but I would rather leave it as it is, since this is my last post for a while (again). And I know that this is not a good way to go out (the anti-Costanza exit), but it is what it is. I only came on here to grab a picture from the Friday of PJ20 weekend to send to a friend.
....and to all, a good night