I think my Presidential aspirations would vaporize...

Shawshank

...about the time Rick Perry grabbed my wrist and pointed his finger at me...I cannot stand that man, I cannot stand him. I'd be in jail after this. There is literally no one I'd rather see become President less than this asshole...

Ron Paul Debate: Rick Perry Physically Grabs Him, Points at His Face
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles/20110908/210639_ron-paul-debate-rick-perry-gop-debate-september-7.htm

VINNY GOOMBA

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Paul probably won't make a big deal out of it once it's all over the news later today... But he could. I've seen his campaign play more "politics" in the last 48 hours than in the 4 years that I have been following him.

Godfather.

judging by the look on Paul's face I would have to say I would have bitch slapped Perry...well it would have been my first thought anyway but as a politician I guess I would have let the media eat him up.


Godfather.

gimmesometruth27

i don't think the media will do much with this.

let's think about this for a minute.

if the media supposedly has a liberal bias, why would they want to report on a spat between the front runner and middle of the pack runner from the other side? that would only give them both more press, which if i am a boss at msnbc i am not going to give any more airtime to perry than i have to.

fox is going to have to choose how they want to cover it. paul could maybe get some sympathy from undecided voters, or perry can be written off as a hothead unworthy of the office, just like sonny corleone.

either way, to me it is a good thing that perry is showing who he really is, while paul seems to be taking the high road...

blueandwhite

Shawshank wrote:

...about the time Rick Perry grabbed my wrist and pointed his finger at me...I cannot stand that man, I cannot stand him. I'd be in jail after this. There is literally no one I'd rather see become President less than this asshole...

This would fire me up, but not to the point that I'd take a swing at him. If somebody can't take me in reasoned discourse, I'm not going to walk away with my tail between my legs. Perry is only exposing himself as a childish, arrogant fool who can't stand it when things don't go his way. If he can't even stand the pressure of a candidate's debate, how does he think he's going to manage in the oval office. I'd literally laugh at the situation.

Paul's biggest failing IMO is that he's too nice. Perry is a clown, but nobody is taking the steps needed to bury him. I sit way further left than either of these men, but I respect that Ron Paul is an intelligent man who is doing what he believes is right. As for Perry; nominating him would virtually guarantee Obama a second term.

catefrances

when they say paul wants to get rid of minimum wage does that mean hes okay with people working for LESS than what is deemed now as minimum wage?

VINNY GOOMBA

catefrances wrote:

when they say paul wants to get rid of minimum wage does that mean hes okay with people working for LESS than what is deemed now as minimum wage?

It's not that he's OK or in favor of it, but it should be permissible. It's the same thing with the whole "he would legalize heroin or prostitution" debate. It's not that he's in favor of people doing heroin or selling themselves for sex, but it's their body, their choice, and as long as they're not hurting anyone else, it should be permissible. It's all about voluntary exchanges between consenting adults. If someone wants to work for less than the current minimum wage, it is up to them. In some ways, having a minimum wage just sets the lowest bar higher, while the rest of the economy raises its prices to adjusts to that rate. What's the difference between the minimum wage being $5 and a sandwich costing $5, and the minimum wage being raised to $8 with the sandwich price then being $8? Sure, having a minimum seems like a good idea in theory, but does it really provide an overall benefit?

gimmesometruth27

i don't like the idea of lowering the minimum wage at all. these are the working poor that we hear so much about. like a single mother of 3 trying to make a living by working at taco bell.

i like the idea of having a minimum wage. but the whole idea of "i WOULD pay you less but legally i CAN'T!" seems wrong to me.

i fail to see how dr paul lowering the minimum wage actually helps the working poor.

unsung

What Perry did was assault. I guess he really can't handle the truth when it pertains to his past.

gimmesometruth27

unsung wrote:

What Perry did was assault. I guess he really can't handle the truth when it pertains to his past.

i agree with you. but if you want to get technical, it was actually battery :ugeek:

unsung

Ok, but no need to laugh at me.


I gained more respect for RP, I'm glad he called out the phony for what he is.

gimmesometruth27

unsung wrote:

Ok, but no need to laugh at me.


I gained more respect for RP, I'm glad he called out the phony for what he is.

i wasn't laughing at you. i was laughing because i actually knew enough about law/legal terminology to get to use the ubergeek icon. i rarely get to use that one.

blueandwhite

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

unsung wrote:

What Perry did was assault. I guess he really can't handle the truth when it pertains to his past.

i agree with you. but if you want to get technical, it was actually battery :ugeek:

If you want to be really technical, it was actually assault & battery. Touching Paul's arm was battery, but the finger gesture would still be assault (the perceived threat of violence).

catefrances

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

catefrances wrote:

when they say paul wants to get rid of minimum wage does that mean hes okay with people working for LESS than what is deemed now as minimum wage?

It's not that he's OK or in favor of it, but it should be permissible. It's the same thing with the whole "he would legalize heroin or prostitution" debate. It's not that he's in favor of people doing heroin or selling themselves for sex, but it's their body, their choice, and as long as they're not hurting anyone else, it should be permissible. It's all about voluntary exchanges between consenting adults. If someone wants to work for less than the current minimum wage, it is up to them. In some ways, having a minimum wage just sets the lowest bar higher, while the rest of the economy raises its prices to adjusts to that rate. What's the difference between the minimum wage being $5 and a sandwich costing $5, and the minimum wage being raised to $8 with the sandwich price then being $8? Sure, having a minimum seems like a good idea in theory, but does it really provide an overall benefit?

minimum wage at least gives a minimum value for someones worth. it pisses me off no end that all that seems to matter is the bottom line.. fuck the worker and lets maximise profits.. i cant be down with that. its bullshit. if it wasnt for the workers, the capitalist system would crash.. so lets treat them with the respect they deserve.
i dont believe that anyone would want to work for less than minimum wage and to suggest so is offensive. to have people so desperate to work that they lower themselves to less than minimum wage is just an appalling indictment on our society.

lets me ask you vinny.. would you be prepared to work for less than minimum wage? cause i sure as hell wouldnt.

unsung

If you can agree in another form of compensation, why not?

Waiters work for less than minimum wage from their employers and there are millions of people doing that job.

catefrances

unsung wrote:

If you can agree in another form of compensation, why not?

Waiters work for less than minimum wage from their employers and there are millions of people doing that job.

but dont waiters work for less than minimum wage because theyre reliant on tips makingup the shortfall??? and consequently tips are expected. if youre okay with that then im not sure theres anything i can say. im not okay with it. tips arent an expected part of the service experience of my culture.

a few years ago i found myself in a tavern in NYC. i was with 2 americans.. anyhoo... we ate a meal in this tavern... if memory serves me, it was on the lower west side. the bill was paid and the waitress came back to our table and pointed out that a tip wasnt factored into our payment. my initial thought was wtf! the service was basic. the food was delivered to our table but the alcohol that we consumed was acquired by one of us going up to the bar and ordering it. how is that deserving of a tip? imo and experience, it isnt.. and yet it was expected. if workers were paid a decent wage then they wouldnt be reliant on tips.

VINNY GOOMBA

catefrances wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

catefrances wrote:

when they say paul wants to get rid of minimum wage does that mean hes okay with people working for LESS than what is deemed now as minimum wage?

It's not that he's OK or in favor of it, but it should be permissible. It's the same thing with the whole "he would legalize heroin or prostitution" debate. It's not that he's in favor of people doing heroin or selling themselves for sex, but it's their body, their choice, and as long as they're not hurting anyone else, it should be permissible. It's all about voluntary exchanges between consenting adults. If someone wants to work for less than the current minimum wage, it is up to them. In some ways, having a minimum wage just sets the lowest bar higher, while the rest of the economy raises its prices to adjusts to that rate. What's the difference between the minimum wage being $5 and a sandwich costing $5, and the minimum wage being raised to $8 with the sandwich price then being $8? Sure, having a minimum seems like a good idea in theory, but does it really provide an overall benefit?

minimum wage at least gives a minimum value for someones worth. it pisses me off no end that all that seems to matter is the bottom line.. fuck the worker and lets maximise profits.. i cant be down with that. its bullshit. if it wasnt for the workers, the capitalist system would crash.. so lets treat them with the respect they deserve.
i dont believe that anyone would want to work for less than minimum wage and to suggest so is offensive. to have people so desperate to work that they lower themselves to less than minimum wage is just an appalling indictment on our society.

lets me ask you vinny.. would you be prepared to work for less than minimum wage? cause i sure as hell wouldnt.

I would not work for less than the minimum wage, no. This is a major part of my reasoning of why it should NOT be mandated-- to me, it's a fairly obvious CHOICE as it is to you. The fact is that a minimum wages SETS the bottom rung for worker's wages, and raising it only raises the floor, with the rest of the pricing structure of society following behind it. Maybe abolishing it would mean that more people would demand a decent wage by their own volition instead of relying on a fail-safe by the state? Simply put, why can't people decide for themselves what they are worth, even if it is less than the current minimum? To say that people cannot decide what they are worth for themselves borders on offensive.

polaris_x

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I would not work for less than the minimum wage, no. This is a major part of my reasoning of why it should NOT be mandated-- to me, it's a fairly obvious CHOICE as it is to you. The fact is that a minimum wages SETS the bottom rung for worker's wages, and raising it only raises the floor, with the rest of the pricing structure of society following behind it. Maybe abolishing it would mean that more people would demand a decent wage by their own volition instead of relying on a fail-safe by the state? Simply put, why can't people decide for themselves what they are worth, even if it is less than the current minimum? To say that people cannot decide what they are worth for themselves borders on offensive.

dude ... if there was no minimum wage ... the prosperity gap would be even bigger than it is now ...

VINNY GOOMBA

polaris_x wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I would not work for less than the minimum wage, no. This is a major part of my reasoning of why it should NOT be mandated-- to me, it's a fairly obvious CHOICE as it is to you. The fact is that a minimum wages SETS the bottom rung for worker's wages, and raising it only raises the floor, with the rest of the pricing structure of society following behind it. Maybe abolishing it would mean that more people would demand a decent wage by their own volition instead of relying on a fail-safe by the state? Simply put, why can't people decide for themselves what they are worth, even if it is less than the current minimum? To say that people cannot decide what they are worth for themselves borders on offensive.

dude ... if there was no minimum wage ... the prosperity gap would be even bigger than it is now ...

I don't see it that way. No minimum wage would yield higher employment. More employment also means more chance for advancement in employment, which would translate to higher wages for workers that do a good job. More employment also means less welfare and unemployment payments which do place a burden on people already in the workforce. People currently working at the mandated minimum become more prosperous if others are willing to work for less than them. If the problem is that society is not valuing labor, putting a mandatory low value on labor is NOT the solution.

Would raising the minimum wage $10 / hour solve anything? For a short time, workers currently making the minimum would be able to acquire more than previously, until their employers and the market decides to charge more for to cover the rising costs. At that point, 18.50 is no better than the current 8.50 (or whatever it is).

I just don't understand, for all that is permissible in America, such as free speech, why do we not allow people to determine for themselves what their labor is worth?

Shawshank

The unfortunate reality is, that as minimum wage increases, so do the costs of production, and so does the cost to the consumer. It's like a treadmill...you may be running faster but you're getting no where.

VINNY GOOMBA

Shawshank wrote:

The unfortunate reality is, that as minimum wage increases, so do the costs of production, and so does the cost to the consumer. It's like a treadmill...you may be running faster but you're getting no where.

Exactly.