Why would the GOP weaken the EPA?

brianlux

Will somebody please explain to me why the GOP wants to weaken the EPA? Yeah, ok, it may not be a perfect branch of our not-perfect government, but the EPA is one way to keep the gross polluters at least somewhat at bay and right now this ailing planet can use all the help it can get. Read the troublesome news here:
:(

http://news.yahoo.com/gops-hidden-debt- ... 00435.html

Jeanwah

Because the heavy polluters are all for deregulation and who to make that happen for them but the GOP!

Not to mention all those corps and companies polluting are the ones lining the GOP's pockets come election time.... Think oil and coal companies, Clorox corp., etc. etc.

WhyGo77

It would be a grave mistake...I sincereley hope that it doesn't happen, but this is the U.S. Government and it seems like anything is possible these days.

After spending 11 years in DC and working alongside almost 20 government agencies (including the EPA) I can name several other agencies that should get the heave-ho before the EPA.

JOEJOEJOE

brianlux wrote:

Will somebody please explain to me why the GOP wants to gut the EPA? Yeah, ok, it may not be a perfect branch of our not-perfect government, but the EPA is one way to keep the gross polluters at least somewhat at bay and right now this ailing planet can use all the help it can get. Read the troublesome news here:
:(

http://news.yahoo.com/gops-hidden-debt- ... 00435.html

because they are republicans!

gimmesometruth27

because they have lost their minds and lost touch with reality.

see how they would feel if their kids experienced health issues from the lead smelter in their neighborhood...

oh wait, my bad...republican congress people make enough money that they can afford to live away from the lead smelter, so it is not their problem. it is the problem of the middle and lower classes who can only afford to live near the smelter.

this is actually happening in missouri. the city of herculaneum has a lead smelter, the doe run smelter, and many many people in herky are very sick. the cancer rate is disproportionate to that of the rest of the state and the rest of the country. it would be worse if the epa had not stepped in to close the smelter.

let's be serious for a minute.

i think gutting the epa would be a grave mistake.

do you republicans on here really believe that gutting the epa is a good thing for this country? if so, why? or is it just another government agency that is getting in the way of business to you?

chadwick

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

because they have lost their minds and lost touch with reality.

see how they would feel if their kids experienced health issues from the lead smelter in their neighborhood...

oh wait, my bad...republican congress people make enough money that they can afford to live away from the lead smelter, so it is not their problem. it is the problem of the middle and lower classes who can only afford to live near the smelter.

this is actually happening in missouri. the city of herculaneum has a lead smelter, the doe run smelter, and many many people in herky are very sick. the cancer rate is disproportionate to that of the rest of the state and the rest of the country. it would be worse if the epa had not stepped in to close the smelter.

let's be serious for a minute.

i think gutting the epa would be a grave mistake.

do you republicans on here really believe that gutting the epa is a good thing for this country? if so, why? or is it just another government agency that is getting in the way of business to you?

that is nuts. we should talk about this a bit more in depth. you can educate me some. lead smelters?
i'll researh that right now. missouri maps are nice. you should post some of this information here.

iowa is fucked with farming chemicals. cancer rates are insane. both my dad's parents died of colon and stomach cancers, they drank out of a well near a corn fields.

crop dusters destroyed my mom's bees back in the 70's. almost killed my brother, a cloud of crazy shit falling from above.

this government is out of order, out of control.

we will have an EPA or shit'll hit the fan im sure.

chadwick

sick that jesse ventura on these bastards. he's a god damn sexual tyrannosaurus for christ sakes.

gimmesometruth27

chadwick wrote:

that is nuts. we should talk about this a bit more in depth. you can educate me some. lead smelters?
i'll researh that right now. missouri maps are nice. you should post some of this information here.

iowa is fucked with farming chemicals. cancer rates are insane. both my dad's parents died of colon and stomach cancers, they drank out of a well near a corn fields.

crop dusters destroyed my mom's bees back in the 70's. almost killed my brother, a cloud of crazy shit falling from above.

this government is out of order, out of control.

we will have an EPA or shit'll hit the fan im sure.

yeah that lead smelter issue has been going on for as long as i can remember. missouri has a lot of lead, and through a process called strip mining to get to the buried lead, it has ruined a lot of land here and made it uninhabitable due to the resulting lead poisoning. people can't live there, and it is toxic to eat the animals that live in those areas. it is quite sad actually. the epa has gotten involved and has been working to penalize the owners of the smelter. a brief history can be found here:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 96cac.html

and a few days ago there was a massive judgement againt the smelter. look at the figures awarded in this case, thanks in large part to the epa...

$320 million verdict in lead smelter case sends clear message

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 55cfa.html
Posted: Saturday, July 30, 2011



ST. LOUIS • The mystery Friday afternoon was not whether the jury would punish the Herculaneum lead smelter's former owners for negligently exposing 16 children to harmful lead pollution.

The jury had already said it planned to award punitive damages, on top of a $38.5 million verdict as compensation for health problems and lost lifetime earnings.

The only question still lingering in the St. Louis Circuit courtroom at the end of a three-month trial was the size of that award.

The answer: $320 million.

The amount surprised even the plaintiffs' attorneys. They had suggested to the jury a punitive award that was one-third lower.

"I'm stunned," said Gerson Smoger, a Dallas attorney who worked on the case with St. Louis attorney Mark Bronson.

"They obviously wanted to send a message: Don't choose profits over people," Bronson said. "That's what this case is about."

Aside from the expected appeals and post-trial motions, this was the last phase in a lengthy and complex case, and it carried with it one last surprise with the staggering verdict.

Attorneys for the defendants departed the courtroom without commenting, their papers and files wheeled out in boxes as soon as court adjourned. The plaintiffs and their families, who cried and hugged after hearing the verdict, declined to comment. So did jurors leaving the courthouse.

This case was just one of many targeting the massive lead smelter in Herculaneum, about 30 miles south of St. Louis. The lawsuits claim former and current owners knowingly exposed residents to lead pollution, a neurotoxin that is especially harmful to children. Plaintiffs' attorneys said their clients, children growing up near the smelter, suffered lost IQ points and other health effects from lead poisoning that the company knew existed and only reluctantly revealed.

This case is the first to reach trial. Current owners of the smelter, Doe Run Resources Corp., settled claims with the plaintiffs earlier this year, according to court records. The court case then centered on the plant's operation from 1986 to 1994 under former owners Texas-based Fluor Corp., Virginia-based A.T. Massey Coal and Missouri-based Doe Run Investment Holdings Co.

On Thursday, the jury returned verdicts awarding compensatory and punitive damages. The compensatory amount was announced immediately, with the plaintiffs receiving awards of $1.25 million to more than $3 million each.

A separate hearing was held Friday to put a number on the punitive award, which in Missouri is allowed to be used to punish wrongdoing and deter future acts.

What happened during the hearing helps illuminate how the jury made its $320 million decision.

The day started with a forensic economist's describing just how big and profitable a company such as Fluor is. Robert W. Johnson, hired by the plaintiffs, noted that Fluor posted $20.8 billion in revenue last year. The company also spent $265.2 million on stock repurchases and dividends. Johnson called it "free cash."

Bronson asked him to explain the term.

"Free to leave the company as designated by the company and it will do no harm," he replied.

Johnson also noted the financial status of A.T. Massey, which reported $3 billion in revenue last year and which was bought during the trial for $8.5 billion, and the Doe Run holding company, which had no financial data.

Jack Quinn, the defendants' attorney, took a different tack with Johnson. Quinn reminded him that these companies were publicly traded and so were owned by pension funds and individual investors. But Johnson demurred, saying institutional investors accounted for almost all of the outstanding stock.

The two sides then made their final pleas to the jury to see things their way, to potentially raise or lower the amount of punitive damages.

Quinn, having already lost on the decision to award damages, tried to limit the amount.

"You have made your decision. I respect what you've done. Fluor respects what you've done," he told the jury.

He reminded the jury's six men and six women that they already had awarded a $38.5 million verdict. Quinn called it "a significant amount of money" and "a clear message."

"Do you think management doesn't hear it? They heard your message," he said. "I believe your message has been sent and it's been sent pretty clearly."

As he neared the end of his argument, Quinn pointed out that the verdict form allows for an amount of zero.

"I'm not telling you to write 'none,'" he said. "But what the instructions recognize is, if you think that the message already has been sent."

Smoger, pleading once more for the plaintiffs, ended the hearing.

He attacked the Fluor leadership that, he said, allowed the lead poisonings to happen and never bothered to even show up in court.

"You've been here for months and you've never heard that they've done anything wrong. You've never heard, 'I'm sorry,'" Smoger said.

—"'We don't care. We're not sorry.' That's the message that you're hearing," he added.

The jury then went out to make its decision. The plaintiffs had asked for $208 million. The jury returned two hours later.

The verdicts for each of the 16 plaintiffs were identical: 11 of 12 jurors had agreed, $15 million in punitive damages from Fluor, $3 million from A.T. Massey and $2 million from the Doe Run holding company.

That added up to $320 million.

The last thing that Smoger had told the jurors before they made their decision seemed to have resonated, carried with them from the courtroom and into their deliberations.

"They hurt these children and did it for money. In our system, we can only punish them with what is most valuable to them," he said, adding, "We punish them with money."

---

Lead smelter verdict

• $320 million in punitive damages

(Split equally among 16 plaintiffs, $20 million each.)

• $38.5 million compensatory damages

(Awards of $1.5 million to $3 million for each plaintiff.)

• Total damages awarded: $358.5 million

chadwick

dunno what we need lead for?
why would anyone wanna work in such a place?
im confused :?

brianlux

Good input everyone!

Lead poisoning is said to have played a role in the downfall of the Roman Empire. And looking at the info provided by gimmesometruth27, it's plain to see we haven't come very far. The very notion of gutting the EPA is further proof we're in deap shit. USA- (and pretty much everybody else), it's time to get our heads out of our asses.

chadwick

brianlux wrote:

Good input everyone!

Lead poisoning is said to have played a role in the downfall of the Roman Empire. And looking at the info provided by gimmesometruth27, it's plain to see we haven't come very far. The very notion of gutting the EPA is further proof we're in deap shit. USA- (and pretty much everybody else), it's time to get our heads out of our asses.

what can we do?
im good at some things
not so good at other things.

i am not a politically correct guy.
i love environmental science and root for earth first everytime
i wanna do something about fighting pollution and the like.
i wish we could physically fight people that hold these kinds of positions.

brianlux

chadwick wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Good input everyone!

Lead poisoning is said to have played a role in the downfall of the Roman Empire. And looking at the info provided by gimmesometruth27, it's plain to see we haven't come very far. The very notion of gutting the EPA is further proof we're in deap shit. USA- (and pretty much everybody else), it's time to get our heads out of our asses.

what can we do?
im good at some things
not so good at other things.

i am not a politically correct guy.
i love environmental science and root for earth first everytime
i wanna do something about fighting pollution and the like.
i wish we could physically fight people that hold these kinds of positions.

Write or call your representative (senator, mayor, etc.) I've heard that one hand written letter or call speaks for 100 people (please, somebody, correct me on that if I'm mistaken), and is much more effective than one-click advocating on your computer (although that is better than nothing).

chadwick

yes you are right on the written letter bit.

polaris_x

they would want to kill it because they are looking for huge cost savings ... before they would just appoint industry folks to lead the EPA so they wouldn't really be a bother but now that reality has set in ... they are looking for huge departments they can sack altogether ... and although conservatives of old fought for the environment ... modern day conservatives now don't care and see environmental laws as a hindrance to "progress" or ultimately profitability ...

Parachute

So that I can buy whichever light bulb I want to.

brianlux

Parachute wrote:

So that I can buy whichever light bulb I want to.

So we should let our freedom to choose light bulbs trump our kids and grandkids freedom to live in a clean, safe, flourishing world? :?

cincybearcat

brianlux wrote:

Parachute wrote:

So that I can buy whichever light bulb I want to.

So we should let our freedom to choose light bulbs trump our kids and grandkids freedom to live in a clean, safe, flourishing world? :?

The EPA has power over the world?

MotoDC

What role did the EPA play in the verdict against the MO lead smelter? In the articles posted so far, all I see is this:

STL Today wrote:

In early 2007, the EPA found high concentrations of lead in dust collected on roads near Doe Run's Herculaneum smelter; trucks leaving mines in Reynolds, Iron and Dent counties have at times been coated with lead. Spills of lead ore and concentrate also have occurred in the mining district and have not always been cleaned to acceptable levels, the EPA said.

Tests conducted last year of 372 properties within a mile of the Herculaneum lead smelter found 129 properties contained lead at levels beyond the EPA's allowable limit of 400 parts per million. Of those, 104 properties had already undergone EPA-ordered soil remediation in the last nine years.

Jack and Leslie Warden lived about three blocks from the Herculaneum smelter for 16 years but moved to Festus after accepting a buyout from Doe Run six years ago. They filed a successful lawsuit with Logan Smith's group that prompted the EPA to adopt tougher air quality standards for lead in 2008.

The real kick-in-the-pants for the smelter was the lawsuit.

At the end of the day, however, the EPA is a drop in the bucket of Federal waste ( http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/environmental.pdf ). I'm sure it could use an overhaul, but as WhyGo said, there are plenty of other agencies to rip up as well.

gimmesometruth27

not to derail the thread, but to add to it. they are wanting to gut the epa and now they want to gut the faa too. they just went on a month long recess without resolving that issue, and now we are going to miss out on $1 billion in airline taxes and they are passing those costs on to the customers...

our government and elected officials are fucking morons.

FAA shutdown to continue as Congress leaves

http://news.yahoo.com/faa-shutdown-cont ... 09095.html

gimmesometruth27

MotoDC wrote:

What role did the EPA play in the verdict against the MO lead smelter? In the articles posted so far, all I see is this:

STL Today wrote:

In early 2007, the EPA found high concentrations of lead in dust collected on roads near Doe Run's Herculaneum smelter; trucks leaving mines in Reynolds, Iron and Dent counties have at times been coated with lead. Spills of lead ore and concentrate also have occurred in the mining district and have not always been cleaned to acceptable levels, the EPA said.

Tests conducted last year of 372 properties within a mile of the Herculaneum lead smelter found 129 properties contained lead at levels beyond the EPA's allowable limit of 400 parts per million. Of those, 104 properties had already undergone EPA-ordered soil remediation in the last nine years.

Jack and Leslie Warden lived about three blocks from the Herculaneum smelter for 16 years but moved to Festus after accepting a buyout from Doe Run six years ago. They filed a successful lawsuit with Logan Smith's group that prompted the EPA to adopt tougher air quality standards for lead in 2008.

The real kick-in-the-pants for the smelter was the lawsuit.

At the end of the day, however, the EPA is a drop in the bucket of Federal waste ( http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/environmental.pdf ). I'm sure it could use an overhaul, but as WhyGo said, there are plenty of other agencies to rip up as well.

this has been going on since at least 1996 and there were hundreds of articles on this. they have been fined by the epa on numerous occasions. i really don't feel like going through all of it, that is why i said to google "doe run smelter" or "herculaneum lead smelter". there is more info about epa involvement than you would ever want to know.

Go Beavers

Parachute wrote:

So that I can buy whichever light bulb I want to.

You don't get enough light from burning your old car tires?