Charity vs. Gov't welfare

butterjambutterjam Posts: 215
edited August 2011 in A Moving Train
A question to all of those who favor more government welfare(Medicare, Social Security, etc.):

Do you donate to charities that provide welfare services(American Red Cross, non-profit hospitals, food banks, etc.)?

If yes, why do you donate to these charities instead of writing a check to the IRS, HHS, etc?

Who does a better job at delivering welfare services, gov't or private charities?
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    I favor government funded social services though will admit to a certain a mount of frustration over the ineffiencies of some of those systems. I believe the government is there to help us (that's their job) and if we elected people who viewed their job as such, these systems would be more useful.

    I donate to environmental organizations and social organizations that support peace, justice, health and human and animal rights. This is my way of tithing.

    I don't need to write another check to the IRS. Because my wife and I are small business owners we pay a higher percentage of taxes than others in our income bracket (lower middle income). That's the way the system is set up. I supose this could be viewed as a good reason for me to rant against my government as much a Tea Party members and right-wingers but I'd rather spend that energy supporting candidates who I believe will do the job of helping the people and by contacting my representatives to let them know what I think, both of which I do quite often.

    Right now I'd say privately funded organizations are doing a better job of delivering services but the potential for government to do more that way is greater. If we support candidates who see their job as helping people and we believe our government should be by the people, for the people, we can make this happen. Use your energy to this end rather than waste time ranting.

    And please do support private organizations that help people. I always look into an organization before I donate to make sure I am sending my money to those I believe will do the most good.

    You can do that right here on the PJ forum by going to:

    viewtopic.php?f=4&t=156048
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  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    311jj wrote:
    A question to all of those who favor more government welfare(Medicare, Social Security, etc.):

    Do you donate to charities that provide welfare services(American Red Cross, non-profit hospitals, food banks, etc.)?

    If yes, why do you donate to these charities instead of writing a check to the IRS, HHS, etc?

    Who does a better job at delivering welfare services, gov't or private charities?

    yes i do donate to NGO but i believe that government funding is needed. in my line of work when ever we try to set up a new project, we must make sure that we can be able to sustain that project and many times we can so great ideas fall by the wasteside. by governments assisting in core funding this helps us in creating programs for people.

    Also, the hard part is that people usually donate to issues in which they have a connection with. I work with homeless people living with HIV, they have substance use issues and many are gay men and new comers. many have major mental health issues and it is very hard to get people to donate to us cause of stigma. with our core funding from the government we are able to provide services to the many people.
  • CH156378CH156378 Posts: 1,539
    this thread reminds me of a question i have been meaning to ask the pro-life crowd.
    does being pro-life mean you have adopted children? if you're pro life can you be against gay couples adopting children?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    CH156378 wrote:
    this thread reminds me of a question i have been meaning to ask the pro-life crowd.
    does being pro-life mean you have adopted children? if you're pro life can you be against gay couples adopting children?

    If I'm hearing this right, these questions indicate some concern about:
    a) over-population issues and
    b) gay's right to adopt.

    a) If you think about it, being pro-life would include being aware of population issues and adopting after the first, or at the very most your second scratch baby (you know, a baby made from scratch-- not adopted). It would also mean taking resposibility to creat a more sustainable lifestyle, a less polluted world and a world of greater diversity of flora and fauna. Over-population and environmental degradation are both ultimately pro-death.

    b) IMO gay's absolutely should have the right to adopt. Some of the best parenting I've seen has been done by gay couples and the kids are wonderful.

    But I'm curious to see some more answers to 311jj's questions...
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    brianlux wrote:
    CH156378 wrote:
    this thread reminds me of a question i have been meaning to ask the pro-life crowd.
    does being pro-life mean you have adopted children? if you're pro life can you be against gay couples adopting children?

    If I'm hearing this right, these questions indicate some concern about:
    a) over-population issues and
    b) gay's right to adopt.

    a) If you think about it, being pro-life would include being aware of population issues and adopting after the first, or at the very most your second scratch baby (you know, a baby made from scratch-- not adopted). It would also mean taking resposibility to creat a more sustainable lifestyle, a less polluted world and a world of greater diversity of flora and fauna. Over-population and environmental degradation are both ultimately pro-death.

    b) IMO gay's absolutely should have the right to adopt. Some of the best parenting I've seen has been done by gay couples and the kids are wonderful.

    But I'm curious to see some more answers to 311jj's questions...

    if being prolife means being aware of overpopulation issues then why make babies from scratch in the first place? is it an ego thing... a need to propagate your genes for that little taste of immortality? or do we still truly believe that blood is best when it comes to identifying our family line?
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    brianlux wrote:
    CH156378 wrote:
    this thread reminds me of a question i have been meaning to ask the pro-life crowd.
    does being pro-life mean you have adopted children? if you're pro life can you be against gay couples adopting children?

    If I'm hearing this right, these questions indicate some concern about:
    a) over-population issues and
    b) gay's right to adopt.

    a) If you think about it, being pro-life would include being aware of population issues and adopting after the first, or at the very most your second scratch baby (you know, a baby made from scratch-- not adopted). It would also mean taking resposibility to creat a more sustainable lifestyle, a less polluted world and a world of greater diversity of flora and fauna. Over-population and environmental degradation are both ultimately pro-death.

    b) IMO gay's absolutely should have the right to adopt. Some of the best parenting I've seen has been done by gay couples and the kids are wonderful.

    But I'm curious to see some more answers to 311jj's questions...

    if being prolife means being aware of overpopulation issues then why make babies from scratch in the first place? is it an ego thing... a need to propagate your genes for that little taste of immortality? or do we still truly believe that blood is best when it comes to identifying our family line?

    Well, personally I agree which is why I do not have any scratch babies. I really do believe if you've gotta have one, have one and then adopt if you want more. In today's world, it just makes sense.

    I enjoyed getting to spend a lot of time with my five nephews and helping to raise a couple of them for a few years. I have three (now adult) godchildren and have always been ready to step in when needed. I have one step-grandchild and another on the way. I've watched my friends kids grow up. I really don't feel like I've missed out on anything and I have zero guilt about overpopulation. I don't mean to sound smug or condescending, I just wish more people would think about it long and hard before have more kids.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    brianlux wrote:
    brianlux wrote:

    If I'm hearing this right, these questions indicate some concern about:
    a) over-population issues and
    b) gay's right to adopt.

    a) If you think about it, being pro-life would include being aware of population issues and adopting after the first, or at the very most your second scratch baby (you know, a baby made from scratch-- not adopted). It would also mean taking resposibility to creat a more sustainable lifestyle, a less polluted world and a world of greater diversity of flora and fauna. Over-population and environmental degradation are both ultimately pro-death.

    b) IMO gay's absolutely should have the right to adopt. Some of the best parenting I've seen has been done by gay couples and the kids are wonderful.

    But I'm curious to see some more answers to 311jj's questions...

    if being prolife means being aware of overpopulation issues then why make babies from scratch in the first place? is it an ego thing... a need to propagate your genes for that little taste of immortality? or do we still truly believe that blood is best when it comes to identifying our family line?

    Well, personally I agree which is why I do not have any scratch babies. I really do believe if you've gotta have one, have one and then adopt if you want more. In today's world, it just makes sense.

    I enjoyed getting to spend a lot of time with my five nephews and helping to raise a couple of them for a few years. I have three (now adult) godchildren and have always been ready to step in when needed. I have one step-grandchild and another on the way. I've watched my friends kids grow up. I really don't feel like I've missed out on anything and I have zero guilt about overpopulation. I don't mean to sound smug or condescending, I just wish more people would think about it long and hard before have more kids.

    i had 4 scratch babies... and am now watching my scratchgrandchild grow up. in my country i am not qualified to adopt.... though that is not why i made my own.
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  • usamamasan1usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    I am for charitbale contributions and low taxes.
    woot
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,435
    i had 4 scratch babies... and am now watching my scratchgrandchild grow up. in my country i am not qualified to adopt.... though that is not why i made my own.

    You seem like a very likable person and I'd be willing to bet your kids are as well. I would never tell anyone what you can or can't do as far as having kids go no matter how many you have or have not. If I could encourage you to do one thing, I'd encourage you to teach you grandchildren about overpopulation so they would think hard about how many they want to have. Of course that's none of my business, it's just a thought.
    "Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!"
    -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"

    "Try to not spook the horse."
    -Neil Young













  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    brianlux wrote:
    i had 4 scratch babies... and am now watching my scratchgrandchild grow up. in my country i am not qualified to adopt.... though that is not why i made my own.

    You seem like a very likable person and I'd be willing to bet your kids are as well. I would never tell anyone what you can or can't do as far as having kids go no matter how many you have or have not. If I could encourage you to do one thing, I'd encourage you to teach you grandchildren about overpopulation so they would think hard about how many they want to have. Of course that's none of my business, it's just a thought.

    grandCHILD. theres only one of her and her mother assures me there will only ever be one. :lol:
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • CH156378CH156378 Posts: 1,539
    is this the death panel they were talking about?
    because if it is, i support it.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43972446/ns ... alth_care/
  • Oh good.

    I haven't had a passive-aggressive and very poor attempt at a "Gotchya" question from a conservative in a couple days.

    I am in full support of universal health care. Because in the end it will save us all money.

    I'm also in full support of social security and medicare.

    Yes, I give to charities and in fact I donate a good deal of my time to raising money. I often support a gay homeless youth shelter in Los Angeles. I've thrown fund raisers for them, I've helped with many more fund raisers and I donated my car to them a couple years ago. I also bought them a huge collection of books aimed at gay teenagers and helped kick start a library for them at the shelter.

    But just because I choose to help out where I see a need doesn't mean that I don't think the people should help each other out. And the government IS the people.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Couldn't have said it better than brianlux.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    There is no question in my mind that private (or non-government) charities do a much better job of managing their resources and have lower waste. There are exceptions, of course, but I'm talking in general.

    I would MUCH rather know that my money and time got to the people who actually needed it and not to line the pockets of government bureaucracy. I do not see how anyone could disagree with that.

    I don't like to talk about it, but I do give a significant amount of my money to charity and would be able to give significantly more if I wasn't supporting government waste and corruption by being forced to give a large portion of my income in taxes.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    I prefer private charity over government welfare. I like having a choice in where my money goes and that it is being spent on its intended purpose, and I would like to think that everyone else does too. My largest and best donation goes to my church-run food pantry, both time and money. 400 local families get fed pretty well every weekend, as well as free clothing, toiletries, toys throughout the year, and even moreso at Christmas and Thanksgiving.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,196
    know1 wrote:
    There is no question in my mind that private (or non-government) charities do a much better job of managing their resources and have lower waste. There are exceptions, of course, but I'm talking in general.

    I would MUCH rather know that my money and time got to the people who actually needed it and not to line the pockets of government bureaucracy. I do not see how anyone could disagree with that.

    I don't like to talk about it, but I do give a significant amount of my money to charity and would be able to give significantly more if I wasn't supporting government waste and corruption by being forced to give a large portion of my income in taxes.

    I'm not always so sure that private charities do a better job, or at least I like to question the assumption, because it seems to be based on anecdotal evidence. I was kicking the idea of food banks vs. food stamps. Food stamps spends about 15% in administrative costs. Food banks seems to be in the 5-10% range. I would attribute the lower expenditures are a result of a lot of volunteer hours. Someone could propose that food stamps be eliminated and let the food banks take over (similar things have been presented here). If that happened, your food bank would have say and extra 10,000 clients (or whatever, depending on your area's population). I don't think you would see an equal relationship in the increase in volunteer hours, therefore, the food bank would have to hire more staff, which would then increase administrative costs.

    My own personal experience is that I've worked in non-profits and government agencies, and both have a level of inefficiency, but I can't say one is always better than the other. A lot of times, it also depends on the services being provided.
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    i don't have a dime to give to anyone. at the moment three different hospitals and three different specialized clinics in said hospitals are on my ass for thousands and thousands of dollars. who the hell do i give money too? i don't have any to give and my credit is shot.

    thank you, chadwick. you're a sick dick.
    sincerely,
    dr. kiss my fanny
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  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,196
    chadwick wrote:
    i don't have a dime to give to anyone. at the moment three different hospitals and three different specialized clinics in said hospitals are on my ass for thousands and thousands of dollars. who the hell do i give money too? i don't have any to give and my credit is shot.

    thank you, chadwick. you're a sick dick.
    sincerely,
    dr. kiss my fanny

    I'll say that most of the people who are against health-care reform/single payer system wont respond to your post because they will sound like giant tools. They would sound like tools because what underlies their argument is that the sick person did something irresponsible to make themselves sick, and/or they didn't improve their skills in order to get a better job that had good health insurance.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    Didn't healthcare reform get passed a year ago? Has anyone noticed any changes?
    Be Excellent To Each Other
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  • Jason P wrote:
    Didn't healthcare reform get passed a year ago? Has anyone noticed any changes?

    Yeah, when I got out of that time machine from 3 years in the future when it actually comes into effect, it was great.

    Seriously... do you even TRY to pay attention? :roll:
  • By the way...

    No. Private Charities do not, in fact, do a better job.

    The Red Cross is always in some scandal about over-paid CEOs and mismanaged funds. The Salvation Army has been wrapped up in so many prejudice lawsuits and nobody's really sure where that money goes, either.

    And let's not forget all the "charities" that just take money, pay their employees a lot, donate more to politicians and try to help out a few people in their spare time.

    If Medicare or Unemployment were run by private charities, we'd all be dead by now.

    True social programs (there's a difference between "socialism" and "social programs" and I wish some people would learn what those are) can't be done by private organizations that don't answer to the people. And if everyone msut benefit (ie universal health care) then we're all going to have to put our tax money into it (can you imagine going to the hospital and having to prove that you made a donation to the Red Cross this year before being treated?).
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    Jason P wrote:
    Didn't healthcare reform get passed a year ago? Has anyone noticed any changes?

    Yeah, when I got out of that time machine from 3 years in the future when it actually comes into effect, it was great.

    Seriously... do you even TRY to pay attention? :roll:
    I try, but who do I trust to get an honest assessment of the reform?

    Perhaps you could break it down for me as it appears you have been paying attention.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    By the way...

    No. Private Charities do not, in fact, do a better job.

    The Red Cross is always in some scandal about over-paid CEOs and mismanaged funds. The Salvation Army has been wrapped up in so many prejudice lawsuits and nobody's really sure where that money goes, either.

    And let's not forget all the "charities" that just take money, pay their employees a lot, donate more to politicians and try to help out a few people in their spare time.

    If Medicare or Unemployment were run by private charities, we'd all be dead by now.

    True social programs (there's a difference between "socialism" and "social programs" and I wish some people would learn what those are) can't be done by private organizations that don't answer to the people. And if everyone msut benefit (ie universal health care) then we're all going to have to put our tax money into it (can you imagine going to the hospital and having to prove that you made a donation to the Red Cross this year before being treated?).

    Maybe the moral of the story with the Red Cross is the same as it is with government, big business, or even huge structured religious institutions like the Catholic Church -- maybe all of these reach a size where they are no longer efficient, and are powerful enough to attract corrupt forces to take them over?

    Because you certainly can't argue that money given to the government goes where you think it does any more than these other machines. It has been proven time and time again that the federal government is, in fact, the absolute WORST at managing money. So, why advocate a system that forcefully takes money and gives it to a giant beast that's going to mis-spend it anyway? Why not allow for more choice? Why do people always think that given the opportunity, people would not voluntarily give money to help others and that it must be forced? Even if that was true, is the solution to force people into giving up their money to someone or something that is likely to spend it wrecklessly any more moral, efficient, or correct solution?

    I have to admit that I haven't heard of corruption within the Red Cross as you mention it, but I'm glad you did. A quick Google search yielded this:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/allen10202005.html

    It's a blog, I don't know how true it is, but I skimmed it quickly, and among the stuff mentioned in there despite mismanagement of funds being a major issue, is that The Red Cross is also Quasi-Government at this point. That's news to me. But if it's true, and the Red Cross is NOT doing the job it's supposed to do, it's probably because IT IS QUASI GOVERNMENT. When you merge the regulators with those who are to be regulated, it's always a clusterfuck. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: To blame government soley is not the way to view a problem, nor is it a better solution to solely blame the private entity. But put those together and you always attract people hungry for power and money with the best means of collecting on those things. I tend to emphasize the blame on government more, because without them, private enterprise truly has no power to force anything on the rest of us. Sure they can convince people to bring money their way for their product / charity / whatever else, but they cannot force us to accept what they offer without government. Government has the monopoly use of force in society, and I think we can all think of instances where that monopoly is totally misused for wrong, even if the intentions seem good.
  • Jason P wrote:
    I try, but who do I trust to get an honest assessment of the reform?

    Perhaps you could break it down for me as it appears you have been paying attention.


    OK, I'll break it down for you honestly...

    The health care law comes into effect in 2014. That's why nobody has really seen the effect yet.

    There are a very small number of things that have come into effect. Now parents can still include their adult children on their policies to the age of 26. That means that millions more people are covered. Insurance companies are also not allowed to take your money while you're well and then suddenly find a "pre-existing condition" as an excuse to cut you off when you suddenly need care.

    That's about all.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    chadwick wrote:
    i don't have a dime to give to anyone. at the moment three different hospitals and three different specialized clinics in said hospitals are on my ass for thousands and thousands of dollars. who the hell do i give money too? i don't have any to give and my credit is shot.

    thank you, chadwick. you're a sick dick.
    sincerely,
    dr. kiss my fanny

    Too bad you're still forced to give via taxes.

    If we could cut these government programs and rely on private charity, then it would be your CHOICE to contribute and if you found yourself unable, you wouldn't be FORCED to like you are now.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,196
    know1 wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    i don't have a dime to give to anyone. at the moment three different hospitals and three different specialized clinics in said hospitals are on my ass for thousands and thousands of dollars. who the hell do i give money too? i don't have any to give and my credit is shot.

    thank you, chadwick. you're a sick dick.
    sincerely,
    dr. kiss my fanny

    Too bad you're still forced to give via taxes.

    If we could cut these government programs and rely on private charity, then it would be your CHOICE to contribute and if you found yourself unable, you wouldn't be FORCED to like you are now.

    By "these" government programs, do you mean Medicaid? Private charities wouldn't be able to handle the load if Medicaid was ended.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    know1 wrote:
    There is no question in my mind that private (or non-government) charities do a much better job of managing their resources and have lower waste. There are exceptions, of course, but I'm talking in general.

    I would MUCH rather know that my money and time got to the people who actually needed it and not to line the pockets of government bureaucracy. I do not see how anyone could disagree with that.

    I don't like to talk about it, but I do give a significant amount of my money to charity and would be able to give significantly more if I wasn't supporting government waste and corruption by being forced to give a large portion of my income in taxes.
    mod_smilie_1.gif
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Go Beavers wrote:
    know1 wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    i don't have a dime to give to anyone. at the moment three different hospitals and three different specialized clinics in said hospitals are on my ass for thousands and thousands of dollars. who the hell do i give money too? i don't have any to give and my credit is shot.

    thank you, chadwick. you're a sick dick.
    sincerely,
    dr. kiss my fanny

    Too bad you're still forced to give via taxes.

    If we could cut these government programs and rely on private charity, then it would be your CHOICE to contribute and if you found yourself unable, you wouldn't be FORCED to like you are now.

    By "these" government programs, do you mean Medicaid? Private charities wouldn't be able to handle the load if Medicaid was ended.

    I mean significantly cutting back on spending for programs in general so people have more disposable income to help other people.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,196
    know1 wrote:
    Go Beavers wrote:
    know1 wrote:

    Too bad you're still forced to give via taxes.

    If we could cut these government programs and rely on private charity, then it would be your CHOICE to contribute and if you found yourself unable, you wouldn't be FORCED to like you are now.

    By "these" government programs, do you mean Medicaid? Private charities wouldn't be able to handle the load if Medicaid was ended.

    I mean significantly cutting back on spending for programs in general so people have more disposable income to help other people.

    So you're saying there's a correlation between tax cuts and donations to charities? If so, what is the correlation?
  • know1 wrote:
    I mean significantly cutting back on spending for programs in general so people have more disposable income to help other people.

    And in which Utopian society do YOU live? Cuz I'd love to live in a world where people didn't just take every penny they have plus the $30,000 in credit card debt they managed to get and spend in on Hummers, Big Screen TVs, vacations to Disney Land, water beds, hot tubs, BluRay players, gaming systems, computers, and speed boats.

    If you actually think that if we lowered everyone's taxes to zero and gave them all a million bucks that they'd donate it all to charity... you're wrong. And clearly not living in the real world.
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