I can understand the abortion debate, but birth control?

LikeAnOcean

Are there seriously people opposed to birth control?



So.. if I masturbate, does that mean I'm going to hell? i think the normal sperm count is like 39 million per masturbation, so is that 39 million souls I just murdered because my girlfriend wasn't feeling horny tonight?


If someone were to try to argue with me about this, I could never take them serious again.

bgivens33

I am completely unqualified to answer this but I believe there are birth control pills that act after conception, not before.

Now if people are against birth control that inhibits the act of conception, then I have no idea.

LikeAnOcean

bgivens33 wrote:

I am completely unqualified to answer this but I believe there are birth control pills that act after conception, not before.

Now if people are against birth control that inhibits the act of conception, then I have no idea.

Well that makes sense. I saw someone protesting with a sign talking about pills, so I only assumed..

gimmesometruth27

in catholocism the pill is against the law of the church. so is condom use, since sex for any purpose other than procreation is against church law.

this is why it was such an earthshattering event a few months ago when the pope said he would reluctantly agree with issuing condoms in africa. not to prevent pregnancy, but only to prevent the spread of aids.

Johnny Aggro

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

in catholocism the pill is against the law of the church. so is condom use, since sex for any purpose other than procreation is against church law.

this is why it was such an earthshattering event a few months ago when the pope said he would reluctantly agree with issuing condoms in africa. not to prevent pregnancy, but only to prevent the spread of aids.

Ahh the pope and the Holy See.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Cloyne_Rpt

Read that. Its the third such report published in my country. basically the pope instructed the bishops in my country to hide and not report any child abuse allegations against the church, as late as 2008.

I will point out at this juncture i do believe in god and a lot of christian teachings, but firmly believe the RC church needs to be wound up for the sake of children.

polaris_x

Gob wrote:

If someone were to try to argue with me about this, I could never take them serious again.

hahaha

as for the topic - yet another reason why the catholic church needs to be abolished ...

Prince Of Dorkness

I think the whole point of the "sex is for making babies" argument is that in the dark ages they needed the people to make as many people as they could so they would have people to fight in wars.

Or something.

Thoughts_Arrive

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I think the whole point of the "sex is for making babies" argument is that in the dark ages they needed the people to make as many people as they could so they would have people to fight in wars.

Or something.

nah, to populate, to keep humankind going....

pandora

Life is a gift

EmBleve

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

in catholocism the pill is against the law of the church. so is condom use, since sex for any purpose other than procreation is against church law.
this is why it was such an earthshattering event a few months ago when the pope said he would reluctantly agree with issuing condoms in africa. not to prevent pregnancy, but only to prevent the spread of aids.

The part that I bolded and italicized isn't entirely true. I was raised Catholic (although I am no longer a practicing Catholic), and premarital sex is definitely frowned upon; sex within a marriage, however, is not 'against church law', and procreation not its only 'accepted' purpose. That is quite a misinformed statement.

Prince Of Dorkness

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I think the whole point of the "sex is for making babies" argument is that in the dark ages they needed the people to make as many people as they could so they would have people to fight in wars.

Or something.

nah, to populate, to keep humankind going....

Yeah, I don't think so. Population has never been a problem. But the "we want more of us than them" thing weighs into it.

shadowcast

Gob wrote:

Are there seriously people opposed to birth control?



So.. if I masturbate, does that mean I'm going to hell? i think the normal sperm count is like 39 million per masturbation, so is that 39 million souls I just murdered because my girlfriend wasn't feeling horny tonight?


If someone were to try to argue with me about this, I could never take them serious again.

39 million..Now that's a lot of Vinny's and Debbie's.

gimmesometruth27

EmBleve wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

in catholocism the pill is against the law of the church. so is condom use, since sex for any purpose other than procreation is against church law.
this is why it was such an earthshattering event a few months ago when the pope said he would reluctantly agree with issuing condoms in africa. not to prevent pregnancy, but only to prevent the spread of aids.

The part that I bolded and italicized isn't entirely true. I was raised Catholic (although I am no longer a practicing Catholic), and premarital sex is definitely frowned upon; sex within a marriage, however, is not 'against church law', and procreation not its only 'accepted' purpose. That is quite a misinformed statement.

i was also raised catholic too, and that is what i was taught in my church. maybe i am "misinformed" just a bit, but not so much according to the research i have just been doing....

here are a few snippets from catholic.com...

http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

Birth Control

In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.

so there ya go, the pill, condoms, and even the pull out and pray method are all wrong in the eyes of the church. if you can't use thos three methods, it implies that the only reason for sex is for procreation...

Nature

Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation.

so there ya go....

other interesting tidbits...
The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother. "Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

Apostolic Tradition

The biblical teaching that birth control is wrong is found even more explicitly among the Church Fathers, who recognized the biblical and natural law principles underlying the condemnation.

In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).

Augustine wrote in 419, "I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility [oral contraceptives]"

The apostolic tradition’s condemnation of contraception is so great that it was followed by Protestants until 1930 and was upheld by all key Protestant Reformers. Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

Wishful Thinking

Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly.

There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience."

this position, as well as the church's position on women's reproductive rights, and their inability to prevent, report, and punish those guilty of pedaphilia, and their unwillingness to enter the modern age on most moral and ethical issues are the main reasons i left this church at age 18. i can not think of what a sheltered existance i would be living right now if i had decided to stay a catholic... life would really be no fun for me.

Godfather.

this whole thread just made me realize how board we are and no matter the topic someone will use it to discredit God or those that believe.

Godfather.

redrock

Godfather, I think what has been mentioned is organised religion, specifically catholicism and 'church laws', rather than god. From various threads, it would seem that most make a separation of the two.

polaris_x

Godfather. wrote:

this whole thread just made me realize how board we are and no matter the topic someone will use it to discredit God or those that believe.

Godfather.

your post just showed us you aren't really reading before posting ...

listen - we know you are devout in your belief in god ... i think for the most part, we all support that ... but one of the biggest points against organized religion is the indoctrination ... coming here and making this post is kinda proving that point ...

gimmesometruth27

Godfather. wrote:

this whole thread just made me realize how board we are and no matter the topic someone will use it to discredit God or those that believe.

Godfather.

i am not discrediting god or his/her followers. i am pointing out how this catholic institution can still manipulate people with antiquated views on nature and the world, and human nature and drives. if people want to believe it, more power to them. i just think it is their issue not mine.

me, i like to get laid and use a condom because it is fun. i'm a guy in a band. that is what we do sometimes. i do not plan on making a baby every time i do it...

Drowned Out

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

me, i like to get laid because it is fun. I use a condom because i do not plan on making a baby every time i do it...i'm a guy in a band. that is what we do sometimes.

fixed that for ya
condoms are the definition of necessary evil

ShimmyMommy

bgivens33 wrote:

I am completely unqualified to answer this but I believe there are birth control pills that act after conception, not before.

Now if people are against birth control that inhibits the act of conception, then I have no idea.

this reminded of a scene in the movie Rango...

[after they've been locked up in the bank vault]
Rango: Beans! Hold on! Don't worry, I got a plan!
[he turns around knocks on the glass wall of the vault and start shouting]
Rango: Help! Open the door!
[Beans rolls her eyes up in despair; as his plan has failed Rango turns to face Beans]
Rango: Okay! Plan B!
Rango: Where I come from, we call this improvisation.
[he puts a bullet in his mouth as he unties Beans]
Beans: You came back!
[Beans kisses Rango, as they're kissing she swallows the bullet that Rango had in his mouth]
Beans: What was that?!
Rango: No need to panic. But I think you just swallowed Plan B.
Beans: What?
[Beans suddenly freezes and starts sinking into the rising water in the vault]
Rango: Okay. Panic time!

gimmesometruth27

Drowned Out wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

me, i like to get laid because it is fun. I use a condom because i do not plan on making a baby every time i do it...i'm a guy in a band. that is what we do sometimes.

fixed that for ya
condoms are the definition of necessary evil

LOL thanks....glad someone gets me around here....

Lizard

EmBleve wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

in catholocism the pill is against the law of the church. so is condom use, since sex for any purpose other than procreation is against church law.
this is why it was such an earthshattering event a few months ago when the pope said he would reluctantly agree with issuing condoms in africa. not to prevent pregnancy, but only to prevent the spread of aids.

The part that I bolded and italicized isn't entirely true. I was raised Catholic (although I am no longer a practicing Catholic), and premarital sex is definitely frowned upon; sex within a marriage, however, is not 'against church law', and procreation not its only 'accepted' purpose. That is quite a misinformed statement.

Raised catholic also. And this is why they came up with the rhythm method or as my mom called it: Vatican Roulette!!

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

this whole thread just made me realize how board we are and no matter the topic someone will use it to discredit God or those that believe.

Godfather.

i am not discrediting god or his/her followers. i am pointing out how this catholic institution can still manipulate people with antiquated views on nature and the world, and human nature and drives. if people want to believe it, more power to them. i just think it is their issue not mine.

me, i like to get laid and use a condom because it is fun. i'm a guy in a band. that is what we do sometimes. i do not plan on making a baby every time i do it...

Gimmi and Polaris fair enough.
Gimmi a young friend here at work named Zach West is going on tour soon I believe in a month or 2 starting in NY and from there I don't know but if you get a chance check him out the kid(26 yrs old) has mad tallent....and they are looking for another guitar player from out that way to replace a guy who droped out of the tour, it's worth a look if you are interested.

Godfather.

brianlux

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I think the whole point of the "sex is for making babies" argument is that in the dark ages they needed the people to make as many people as they could so they would have people to fight in wars.

Or something.

The dark ages??

Oh, you mean like from around 500 to 1000 AD.

Sometimes I wonder if we haven't entered The Dark Ages II. With the world population at 6.775 billion we still see SUV's with the little white stickers in the window representing mom, dad, kids, dog, cat etc. and I'm always astounded when I see 3, 4, 5 even 6 or more little stick figures representing kids. Kids are great but unless these people are adopting after one or two... 'nough said?

LikeAnOcean

brianlux wrote:

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I think the whole point of the "sex is for making babies" argument is that in the dark ages they needed the people to make as many people as they could so they would have people to fight in wars.

Or something.

The dark ages??

Oh, you mean like from around 500 to 1000 AD.

Sometimes I wonder if we haven't entered The Dark Ages II. With the world population at 6.775 billion we still see SUV's with the little white stickers in the window representing mom, dad, kids, dog, cat etc. and I'm always astounded when I see 3, 4, 5 even 6 or more little stick figures representing kids. Kids are great but unless these people are adopting after one or two... 'nough said?

I want kids, but I see no need to have more than two. There just is no reason in this modern era to have more than a few. If you want a big family, adopt or make more friends.

FiveB247x

I find it almost ironic that people are so tied to being against abortion or birth control because it's humans "playing god" or interjecting their morality into creating society. We have forever changed what "life" is in terms of technology, medicine and similar, but because it's beneficial we claim it to be ok, but when it is not, it's bad. Not consistent logic or rational.

catefrances

just say no kiddos.

Gary Carter

catefrances wrote:

just say no kiddos.

Johnny Aggro

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

this whole thread just made me realize how board we are and no matter the topic someone will use it to discredit God or those that believe.

Godfather.

i am not discrediting god or his/her followers. i am pointing out how this catholic institution can still manipulate people with antiquated views on nature and the world, and human nature and drives. if people want to believe it, more power to them. i just think it is their issue not mine.

me, i like to get laid and use a condom because it is fun. i'm a guy in a band. that is what we do sometimes. i do not plan on making a baby every time i do it...

I echo those sentiments. God is not on trial here, or anyones beliefs. If any institution abuse human rights, they should be held accountable. Like I said I do believe in god, and firmly believe that come the end, those who have wronged will feel his wrath. That aside the RC church is corrupt to the core, and needs to be at th very least revamped

EmBleve

Your research quotes are enlightening, but I didn't find this dated attitude to be the case in the church I grew up in, nor in my household. Like you, there are many reasons why I decided to part with catholicism (and organized religions in general), but a birth control issue per se wasn't one of them, because, again, that was never an issue that I personally felt was impacted by the catholic church (in my own life). And my dad had a strict catholic upbringing with catholic schools and the whole 9; he was never taught, nor did he come away with, the idea that the sole purpose of a sexual relationship was procreation, thankfully. I also have a very large extended family (primarily Italian, and naturally, Catholic ), and birth control was actually encouraged. I am happy for the more progressive and accepting thinkers within the religion, because they do exist.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

EmBleve wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

in catholocism the pill is against the law of the church. so is condom use, since sex for any purpose other than procreation is against church law.
this is why it was such an earthshattering event a few months ago when the pope said he would reluctantly agree with issuing condoms in africa. not to prevent pregnancy, but only to prevent the spread of aids.

The part that I bolded and italicized isn't entirely true. I was raised Catholic (although I am no longer a practicing Catholic), and premarital sex is definitely frowned upon; sex within a marriage, however, is not 'against church law', and procreation not its only 'accepted' purpose. That is quite a misinformed statement.

i was also raised catholic too, and that is what i was taught in my church. maybe i am "misinformed" just a bit, but not so much according to the research i have just been doing....

here are a few snippets from catholic.com...

http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

Birth Control

In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.

so there ya go, the pill, condoms, and even the pull out and pray method are all wrong in the eyes of the church. if you can't use thos three methods, it implies that the only reason for sex is for procreation...

Nature

Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation.

so there ya go....

other interesting tidbits...
The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother. "Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

Apostolic Tradition

The biblical teaching that birth control is wrong is found even more explicitly among the Church Fathers, who recognized the biblical and natural law principles underlying the condemnation.

In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).

Augustine wrote in 419, "I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility [oral contraceptives]"

The apostolic tradition’s condemnation of contraception is so great that it was followed by Protestants until 1930 and was upheld by all key Protestant Reformers. Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

Wishful Thinking

Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly.

There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience."

this position, as well as the church's position on women's reproductive rights, and their inability to prevent, report, and punish those guilty of pedaphilia, and their unwillingness to enter the modern age on most moral and ethical issues are the main reasons i left this church at age 18. i can not think of what a sheltered existance i would be living right now if i had decided to stay a catholic... life would really be no fun for me.