Reasonable Doubt?

CH156378CH156378 Posts: 1,539
edited July 2011 in A Moving Train
if a jurror has doubts but they are reasonable, can they still vote guilty? so it boils down to reasonable and unreasonable doubt?
i have doubts about someones guilt but they are not unreasonable doubts. how must i vote?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Jokertt14Jokertt14 Posts: 2,566
    evidence ... if the prosecution brings none . then there is none .

    Same thing with Reasonable Doubt you have to have EVIDENCE to back up what your saying .



    You cant just go into a court room and say your guilty i know it . i cant prove it but i know it . go to jail for life . Just don't work that way . :mrgreen:
  • beyond a reasonable doubt = no question/no doubt about it

    It's the highest burden of proof that has to be met.

    Prosecution had no chance from the beginning, and the defense knew it.
    No need to be void,... or save up on life...
    You got to spend it all.....

    PJ
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    EV
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  • Jokertt14Jokertt14 Posts: 2,566
    beyond a reasonable doubt = no question/no doubt about it

    It's the highest burden of proof that has to be met.

    Prosecution had no chance from the beginning, and the defense knew it.

    thank you just didn't know how to say it .

    everyone thinks they did some magic act . its just flat out how a court room works .
  • jdpancoastjdpancoast Posts: 34
    I had been arguing about this case all weekend with family. I think we all could say the mom didn't look the greatest in the trial. But when the prosecution can't determine a method of death, or provide a weapon/object used, how would it be possible to vote guilty?
    If I knew where it was, I would take you there. There's not much more than this (Live at Garden)
  • ParachuteParachute Posts: 409
    The prosecution proved only 3 things:
    1. Casey likes to party
    2. She is probably, in fact, very likely mentally ill.
    3. This was one screwed up family.

    But that is all.
    They presented no concrete evidence that tied her to killing Caylee.

    No justice for that little girl.... it's really sad.
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Parachute wrote:
    The prosecution proved only 3 things:
    1. Casey likes to party
    2. She is probably, in fact, very likely mentally ill.
    3. This was one screwed up family.

    But that is all.
    They presented no concrete evidence that tied her to killing Caylee.

    No justice for that little girl.... it's really sad.

    I thought the only thing prosecution proved was that Casey is a slut and the family's disfunctional. And the last few weeks with the family involved resembled more of a civil case than a criminal case.

    The more I hear how shocked people are with the verdict makes me think that too many didn't really follow the court case, and only what they want to believe should happen, as well as the media hype. It was obvious days ago with the lack of evidence how it was going to turn out! She should have gotten a negligence charge though.
  • supersonicyearssupersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Parachute wrote:
    The prosecution proved only 3 things:
    1. Casey likes to party
    2. She is probably, in fact, very likely mentally ill.
    3. This was one screwed up family.

    But that is all.
    They presented no concrete evidence that tied her to killing Caylee.

    No justice for that little girl.... it's really sad.

    I thought the only thing prosecution proved was that Casey is a slut and the family's disfunctional. And the last few weeks with the family involved resembled more of a civil case than a criminal case.

    The more I hear how shocked people are with the verdict makes me think that too many didn't really follow the court case, and only what they want to believe should happen, as well as the media hype. It was obvious days ago with the lack of evidence how it was going to turn out! She should have gotten a negligence charge though.
    She searched the internet for chloroform, the trunk of her car smelled like a dead body had been in there according to several people that can recognize that smell. She partied while her child was missing. The only reason a search was started for her daughter was the fact that Casey's Mother went and found Casey and started questioning her about where Caylee was. They found chloroform on the body. There was duct tape on the nose and mouth. I think that shows the cause of death. Casey gets a tattoo that says "Beautiful Life" in Italian while her daughter is missing. Casey was the last real, not imaginary person to see her daughter alive.
    Did you follow the case?
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Parachute wrote:
    The prosecution proved only 3 things:
    1. Casey likes to party
    2. She is probably, in fact, very likely mentally ill.
    3. This was one screwed up family.

    But that is all.
    They presented no concrete evidence that tied her to killing Caylee.

    No justice for that little girl.... it's really sad.

    I thought the only thing prosecution proved was that Casey is a slut and the family's disfunctional. And the last few weeks with the family involved resembled more of a civil case than a criminal case.

    The more I hear how shocked people are with the verdict makes me think that too many didn't really follow the court case, and only what they want to believe should happen, as well as the media hype. It was obvious days ago with the lack of evidence how it was going to turn out! She should have gotten a negligence charge though.
    She searched the internet for chloroform, the trunk of her car smelled like a dead body had been in there according to several people that can recognize that smell. She partied while her child was missing. The only reason a search was started for her daughter was the fact that Casey's Mother went and found Casey and started questioning her about where Caylee was. They found chloroform on the body. There was duct tape on the nose and mouth. I think that shows the cause of death. Casey gets a tattoo that says "Beautiful Life" in Italian while her daughter is missing. Casey was the last real, not imaginary person to see her daughter alive.
    Did you follow the case?

    I did follow it, and there was no hard evidence, nor proof telling of how the child died. That's the way the courts work. Unfortunately everything you mentioned does not add up to hard proof. The chloroform was not enough to prove that the child actually died as a cause of it.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    CH156378 wrote:
    if a jurror has doubts but they are reasonable, can they still vote guilty? so it boils down to reasonable and unreasonable doubt?
    i have doubts about someones guilt but they are not unreasonable doubts. how must i vote?

    You must vote not guilty. You have a reasonable doubt about the person's guilt and a guilty verdict requires that you find the person guilty BEYOND a reasonable doubt. So you can only vote guilty if your doubt is totally unreasonable.

    For instance, let's say you have a person locked alone in a room with a piece of cake and someone eats the cake. Would you find that person guilty? You could doubt his guilt. He could say, for instance, that aliens came and ate the cake and disappeared again without leaving any evidence. But that would be unreasonable. So you would vote that he is guilty of eating the cake.

    Now let's say there's a big, fat dude who you don't trust in the room with a sweet, little old lady who you do trust & someone eats the cake and there's no evidence pointing to one or the other. You might believe the dude ate it, because he seems slovenly and dishonest, especially compared to the little old lady. But could the lady have eaten it? Would that be reasonably possible, if unlikely? Yes, it's possible. So then you have a reasonable doubt of the dude's guilt and would have to vote not guilty.
  • supersonicyearssupersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    _ wrote:
    CH156378 wrote:
    if a jurror has doubts but they are reasonable, can they still vote guilty? so it boils down to reasonable and unreasonable doubt?
    i have doubts about someones guilt but they are not unreasonable doubts. how must i vote?

    You must vote not guilty. You have a reasonable doubt about the person's guilt and a guilty verdict requires that you find the person guilty BEYOND a reasonable doubt. So you can only vote guilty if your doubt is totally unreasonable.

    For instance, let's say you have a person locked alone in a room with a piece of cake and someone eats the cake. Would you find that person guilty? You could doubt his guilt. He could say, for instance, that aliens came and ate the cake and disappeared again without leaving any evidence. But that would be unreasonable. So you would vote that he is guilty of eating the cake.

    Now let's say there's a big, fat dude who you don't trust in the room with a sweet, little old lady who you do trust & someone eats the cake and there's no evidence pointing to one or the other. You might believe the dude ate it, because he seems slovenly and dishonest, especially compared to the little old lady. But could the lady have eaten it? Would that be reasonably possible, if unlikely? Yes, it's possible. So then you have a reasonable doubt of the dude's guilt and would have to vote not guilty.
    Who else was with Caylee besides Casey before she disappeared? Psst, we can't include the imaginary people.
    It was Casey.
    Why did she create the nanny and a boss and job that didn't exist. Because she needed to hide the truth.
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    CH156378 wrote:
    if a jurror has doubts but they are reasonable, can they still vote guilty? so it boils down to reasonable and unreasonable doubt?
    i have doubts about someones guilt but they are not unreasonable doubts. how must i vote?


    according to the evidense presented yer honor.

    Godfather.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    _ wrote:
    CH156378 wrote:
    if a jurror has doubts but they are reasonable, can they still vote guilty? so it boils down to reasonable and unreasonable doubt?
    i have doubts about someones guilt but they are not unreasonable doubts. how must i vote?

    You must vote not guilty. You have a reasonable doubt about the person's guilt and a guilty verdict requires that you find the person guilty BEYOND a reasonable doubt. So you can only vote guilty if your doubt is totally unreasonable.

    For instance, let's say you have a person locked alone in a room with a piece of cake and someone eats the cake. Would you find that person guilty? You could doubt his guilt. He could say, for instance, that aliens came and ate the cake and disappeared again without leaving any evidence. But that would be unreasonable. So you would vote that he is guilty of eating the cake.

    Now let's say there's a big, fat dude who you don't trust in the room with a sweet, little old lady who you do trust & someone eats the cake and there's no evidence pointing to one or the other. You might believe the dude ate it, because he seems slovenly and dishonest, especially compared to the little old lady. But could the lady have eaten it? Would that be reasonably possible, if unlikely? Yes, it's possible. So then you have a reasonable doubt of the dude's guilt and would have to vote not guilty.
    Who else was with Caylee besides Casey before she disappeared? Psst, we can't include the imaginary people.
    It was Casey.
    Why did she create the nanny and a boss and job that didn't exist. Because she needed to hide the truth.
    I have no idea; I didn't follow the case. I thought this thread was about defining reasonable doubt.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    _ wrote:
    You must vote not guilty. You have a reasonable doubt about the person's guilt and a guilty verdict requires that you find the person guilty BEYOND a reasonable doubt. So you can only vote guilty if your doubt is totally unreasonable.
    I don't have any reasonable doubt. But I don't have to follow the "slippery slope" set of guidelines that the jury had to. I also get to use common sense and reasoning, which the jury was also deprived of by the courts.

    The biggest issue is that the jury is from Florida and you probably grow numb to cases like this. If this happened in the Midwest, the hangman would be prepping his gear as we speak ... or type.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    it takes much much less to find someone guilty in the court of public opinion.

    simply stated, the prosecution did not prove their case to the only 12 people that mattered, the jury.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    Jason P wrote:
    _ wrote:
    You must vote not guilty. You have a reasonable doubt about the person's guilt and a guilty verdict requires that you find the person guilty BEYOND a reasonable doubt. So you can only vote guilty if your doubt is totally unreasonable.
    I don't have any reasonable doubt. But I don't have to follow the "slippery slope" set of guidelines that the jury had to. I also get to use common sense and reasoning, which the jury was also deprived of by the courts.

    So this jury was held to a different set of guidelines than the rest of the juries in the country? :?
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    _ wrote:

    So this jury was held to a different set of guidelines than the rest of the juries in the country? :?
    Don't know. I've always been smart enough to avoid jury selection. 8-)

    But in regards to common sense and reasoning versus the "slippery slope", this quote from one of the jurors best sums it up:

    Casey Anthony juror Jennifer Ford said today that she and the other jurors cried and were "sick to our stomachs" after voting to acquit Casey Anthony of charges that she killed her 2-year-old daughter Caylee.

    "I did not say she was innocent," said Ford, who had previously only been identified as juror number 3. "I just said there was not enough evidence. If you cannot prove what the crime was, you cannot determine what the punishment should be."


    http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-juror-sick-stomach-guilty-verdict/story?id=14005609
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • cajunkiwicajunkiwi Posts: 984
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Parachute wrote:
    The prosecution proved only 3 things:
    1. Casey likes to party
    2. She is probably, in fact, very likely mentally ill.
    3. This was one screwed up family.

    But that is all.
    They presented no concrete evidence that tied her to killing Caylee.

    No justice for that little girl.... it's really sad.

    I thought the only thing prosecution proved was that Casey is a slut and the family's disfunctional. And the last few weeks with the family involved resembled more of a civil case than a criminal case.

    The more I hear how shocked people are with the verdict makes me think that too many didn't really follow the court case, and only what they want to believe should happen, as well as the media hype. It was obvious days ago with the lack of evidence how it was going to turn out! She should have gotten a negligence charge though.
    She searched the internet for chloroform, the trunk of her car smelled like a dead body had been in there according to several people that can recognize that smell. She partied while her child was missing. The only reason a search was started for her daughter was the fact that Casey's Mother went and found Casey and started questioning her about where Caylee was. They found chloroform on the body. There was duct tape on the nose and mouth. I think that shows the cause of death. Casey gets a tattoo that says "Beautiful Life" in Italian while her daughter is missing. Casey was the last real, not imaginary person to see her daughter alive.
    Did you follow the case?

    I think legally, all you did was prove the following:
    1. Someone conducted an internet search for a chemical that can be used as a sedative or a solvent.
    2. The trunk of a car registered to Casey Anthony smelled bad, as if something dead had been in there.
    3. Casey Anthony is an irresponsible parent.
    4. See No. 3.
    5. The item searched for in the internet search was found on the victim's body.
    6. The victim's nose and mouth were duct-taped.
    7. See No. 3.
    8. The witnesses called by the prosecution aren't aware of anyone seeing the victim after the mother saw her.

    To return a guilty verdict from the jury though, the prosecution had to prove that Casey Anthony killed Caylee Anthony deliberately. While the circumstantial evidence was fairly overwhelming, they failed to do that one key thing.

    Those same eight points again:

    1. Someone conducted an internet search for a chemical that can be used as a sedative or a solvent. An internet search does not prove the person conducting the search committed murder. It proves they used the internet.
    2. The trunk of a car registered to Casey Anthony smelled bad, as if something dead had been in there. Did the prosecution find Caylee's DNA in the trunk of the car, and did they prove Casey was the only person who ever drove the car?
    3. Casey Anthony is an irresponsible parent. However, being a shitty mother does not automatically make you a murderer. It just makes you a shitty mother.
    4. See No. 3.
    5. The item searched for in the internet search was found on the victim's body. This makes point No. 1 much more incriminating, but there was no evidence presented to show who administered the chloroform to the child.
    6. The victim's nose and mouth were duct-taped. Again, it was never proven who applied the duct-tape.
    7. See No. 3.
    8. The witnesses called by the prosecution aren't aware of anyone seeing the victim after they were aware of the mother seeing her. The door is still open though for someone else they were unaware of seeing (and subsequently killing) Caylee.

    Personally I think Casey probably killed Caylee (though I admit I hardly watched any of the trial - I was back home in New Zealand where it didn't make the news at all). From what I know about the trial though, it appears as if the prosecution failed to produce enough concrete (not circumstantial) evidence to erase all reasonable doubt.
    And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
  • supersonicyearssupersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    Jeanwah wrote:
    quote="Jeanwah"quote="Parachute"The prosecution proved only 3 things:
    1. Casey likes to party
    2. She is probably, in fact, very likely mentally ill.
    3. This was one screwed up family.

    But that is all.
    They presented no concrete evidence that tied her to killing Caylee.

    No justice for that little girl.... it's really sad.

    I thought the only thing prosecution proved was that Casey is a slut and the family's disfunctional. And the last few weeks with the family involved resembled more of a civil case than a criminal case.

    The more I hear how shocked people are with the verdict makes me think that too many didn't really follow the court case, and only what they want to believe should happen, as well as the media hype. It was obvious days ago with the lack of evidence how it was going to turn out! She should have gotten a negligence charge though.
    She searched the internet for chloroform, the trunk of her car smelled like a dead body had been in there according to several people that can recognize that smell. She partied while her child was missing. The only reason a search was started for her daughter was the fact that Casey's Mother went and found Casey and started questioning her about where Caylee was. They found chloroform on the body. There was duct tape on the nose and mouth. I think that shows the cause of death. Casey gets a tattoo that says "Beautiful Life" in Italian while her daughter is missing. Casey was the last real, not imaginary person to see her daughter alive.
    Did you follow the case?[/quote]

    I did follow it, and there was no hard evidence, nor proof telling of how the child died. That's the way the courts work. Unfortunately everything you mentioned does not add up to hard proof. The chloroform was not enough to prove that the child actually died as a cause of it.[/quote]
    What about the duct tape? Casey was the last person seen with Caylee. She made up stories and people to cover up where she was. That doesn't seem like hard proof??
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
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