Is it wrong of me to recommend firing this girl?
pjfan31
Posts: 7,331
I am studying to be a teacher, love working with kids, and I run a before and after school care centre for you guessed it... school aged kids. A month and a half ago we hired someone as my 2.I.C on a 3 month trial. Now the people who I answer to are a committee with numerous stakeholders in it who all along have said to me 'if you don't like her, don't get on with her.... blah blah we won't renew her' So basically they are working around what I want which is good to have, but puts me in an awkward position...
So this girl is 18 going on 65 (know it all).... but then has completely normal 18 year old behaviour (which we all know what that is like :roll: ). She is incredibly hard to talk to. I will always say 'hows your weekend, day', blah blah, and she will always answer, but never ask me, so conversation is extremely difficult.
She is due for more surgery soon that occurred from a car accident. So if she has significant time off, I don't have the staff to replace her. Can I use this as a negative in my reasoning? I don't want to use her physical ability against her, but it prevents her from doing parts of her job. The injury was was not sustained at work, and it may mean she has to have a lengthy period of time off.
She acts like she has been out of school for ever (only last year), had several jobs (starting to see why)The list can go on and on.... She is a good/ok worker, but that is it. She does not differentiate herself ahead of others, and she gets paid more, gets holiday benefits (12 wks a year) and an in-charge rate if I am not there.
Another reason is I genuinely love my work... The kids, the community, the holidays... but I want the best for it, and I don't think she can be the best for this place. I have been there 5 years and I just want the place to continue to flourish....
I have asked staff who work there to raise any issues with me. I would never bitch infront of staff(thats why Im doing it here
) just asking how she works when I am not there and they have expressed concerns...
and one last thing that pissed me off... She put like 2L of milk in the bin today... when I went to empty it, it had leaked all through the bag, the bin, went all over the floor and my shoe... I was PISSED off...
So basically it all comes down to my recommendation. Surely I can't fire her on whether Iike her or not..... or can I.... I am in a serious pickle, this decision won't be made lightly. The head of the committee and I have a review meeting tomorrow...
Cheers,
So this girl is 18 going on 65 (know it all).... but then has completely normal 18 year old behaviour (which we all know what that is like :roll: ). She is incredibly hard to talk to. I will always say 'hows your weekend, day', blah blah, and she will always answer, but never ask me, so conversation is extremely difficult.
She is due for more surgery soon that occurred from a car accident. So if she has significant time off, I don't have the staff to replace her. Can I use this as a negative in my reasoning? I don't want to use her physical ability against her, but it prevents her from doing parts of her job. The injury was was not sustained at work, and it may mean she has to have a lengthy period of time off.
She acts like she has been out of school for ever (only last year), had several jobs (starting to see why)The list can go on and on.... She is a good/ok worker, but that is it. She does not differentiate herself ahead of others, and she gets paid more, gets holiday benefits (12 wks a year) and an in-charge rate if I am not there.
Another reason is I genuinely love my work... The kids, the community, the holidays... but I want the best for it, and I don't think she can be the best for this place. I have been there 5 years and I just want the place to continue to flourish....
I have asked staff who work there to raise any issues with me. I would never bitch infront of staff(thats why Im doing it here
) just asking how she works when I am not there and they have expressed concerns...and one last thing that pissed me off... She put like 2L of milk in the bin today... when I went to empty it, it had leaked all through the bag, the bin, went all over the floor and my shoe... I was PISSED off...
So basically it all comes down to my recommendation. Surely I can't fire her on whether Iike her or not..... or can I.... I am in a serious pickle, this decision won't be made lightly. The head of the committee and I have a review meeting tomorrow...
Cheers,
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No I don't think you will be able to use her surgery against her either and shouldn't even be mentioned again.
It sounds to me like your reasons are mostly personality differences to me.
I wouldn't recommend she be fired.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The reason I pointed out about her injury are the following: when she was hired, her injury was known to us, but it was to get better. She said it would not affect her work after the first couple of weeks. Which it has. Now she mentions she is going in for more surgery. If she has time off, I have no one to replace her with for weeks/month... Her injury was not sustained as a result of a workplace incident. If it was, that would be whole new ball game. And I recently had a staff member take indefinite time off as she is not well. So one more staff down.
Thankyou for your input... This is extremely hard
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if she is ok worker (what kind of concerns do other people have?) but just doesnt feel the need/pleasure of getting into "how was your weekend?" conversations, doesnt mean you cant talk to her about anything else. maybe she is focused on work which would be positive, or your topics are too random for her to even bother.
on the other hand, if you feel she'd be rotten apple in your basket, you should part your ways.
you need to ask yourself a lot of questions first.
and also: do kids like her?
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there no way to work with injury, find things she do til it fully heals
I can't work tuesday mornings, and for the 2nd tuesday in a row a kid has played up. Last week he headbutted a kid and this week he got in a fight. This is a huge factor for me, as soon I will be having more time off as I have to do practical placements for my teaching degree. This was the whole purpose of hiring her. There have been instances where children have been playing unsupervised (which I spoke to her about).
Alright, surgery is out, I will not mention it, but it is still a concern... because we will be under-staffed which is illegal when working with children.
and no way do I like her
I also want to re-iterate. This is not just a job for me... I put hours in on the side there, volunteer my time to raise money for it do other things on the side because it is the kind of job that looks after its workers. Like they fully support my education and me needing time off for practical placements, they give me 12 weeks paid holidays a year, I get a healthy christmas bonus... so I want the best for this place...
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If you did all of these things and she is still a problem then you should be in the clear to fire her. You need only to make your case to the steering committee/board and present your documentation. If you have not properly documented these things then typically you have little-to-no merit to plead your case with.
Make a point to document things. At the end of each day take a look at each day's occurrences. Ask yourself "Was this thing really that bad? Is it only bothering me, or others too (this includes staff and children)? Is it affecting the bottom line?" If you find that the list is populated with personality-based things you disagree with that's one thing. If you are finding actual infractions then that's another.
Here's the thing though... If her behavior/attitude/performance is affecting the overall work environment to such a degree that operational goals run the risk of not being met, then recommend to the steering committee/board that she be fired. There's nothing wrong with saying someone's personality doesn't fit and they need to go. Jim Collins makes that point rather convincingly in his book Good To Great. From the sound of things they will support your decision. Building an organization with the right people is essential to it's success.
The point about her needing to take medical leave is a delicate topic. I tend to agree with what people have said above - That it is primarily wrong (and most likely illegal) to fire someone because you are aware of them needing to take time off for medical purposes. In that respect it should be left alone. However if what you said about staffing numbers and legal compliance is true, that definitely needs to be addressed. You should tell the board that at some point in the future in order to maintain compliance they will have to authorize the temporary hiring of an employee to cover for someone going on medical leave.
If they do authorize the hiring of a temp, use that time as a dry run to see if they are a better fit. If they are, and are interested in the job permanently, fire the original worker after she gets back from med leave. It's a completely legitimate argument to say that the organization runs better with someone else and she's no longer needed.
I've seen a few situations like yours up close over the past few years. If the proper justification is there, rip the band-aid off and fire her sooner rather than later. You'll be thankful you did.
You need to sit down and review everything, her performance, her attendance, her interaction with the kids and co-workers, then make your decision. Don’t bring your personal feelings into it, they don’t matter.
the human brain is not fully developed until 25!
My daughter had a serious forklift accident not unlike car accident injuries.
That has very much humbled her and helped her to feel the pain of others,
two mature qualities for her young years.
Firing someone is very hard to do if you are a caring person,
it actually can make you physically ill.
I don't envy your position...
above all else it is what is good for your kids and you know this. If she is or has the potential to be good for the kids, take the time to help this young girl be all she can... if not let her find a job that will.
Don't fire her b/c you dislike her, but don't keep her b/c you think your disliking her is clouding your judgment.
As a PIC don't you want to work with people that are as committed as you.
We had a meeting with her and the president of the committee today.
First up she was asked how she is going where she then proceeded to point things out that was 'wrong' with our centre. She raised about 4 or 5 points, of which maybe one was valid. She bought up points about other staff which were not necessary and to be frank annoyed me. As I noted, if she has concerns to raise them with me, rather than wait to do so in a forum such as this. In my opinion, she was trying to get one over me.
I am satisfied that her injury will play no part in the decision as the actual surgery will not affect the running of the centre. My biggest concern was that we have 1 staff member to 15 kids. We don't have a lot of staff on the books and it makes it difficult to cater for periods of absence.
She seems to be full of little excuses as to why she doesn't do something. It is quite frustrating that she will attribute it to something else. This is a problem.
This morning she and the children were talking about a place called the blue mountains. She proceeded to say 'it is beautiful, but I guarantee you, nearly everytime you go there, there will be police and ambulances there' She was about to launch in to how it is a place for people to suicide until I said 'no, don't go there' so she heard me (she was in closer proximity to me than the children)... the kids were like 'why? why? why?' so I had to come up with something. The last thing we need is young children infatuated with suicide/scared of death.
Again I was told by the president if there is a personal conflict we don't have to renew her contract. I guess they see me as Kobe Bryant and they're happy to build a team around me. I find it hard to justify not hiring her on the merits of whether I like her or not, but it does make my time at a place I love harder.
After the meeting, I spoke with the president, and she was of the same opinion as me. If she doesn't improve in the next month, we will most likely offer her a position as a casual worker.
This is hard, and something I haven't dealt with before... So I thank you for your discussion
(a serious discussion on AET without being derailed... who would have thought aye?)
P.s, she hasn't even heard of pearl Jam... I was ready to get rid of her on the spot....
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my kids are absolutely nothing like they were when they were 18,
entirely different people now in their mid twenties...
night and day difference.
In her defense, the way you describe her she seems to be a girl of 18.
I would think to work with the kids you'd want someone with some continuing education
or a few years of job experience.
It takes a more mature personality ... one with patience and hindsight,
who is devoted and unselfish to be a good role model for children.
These traits some very young people have but may not be the general rule
without more life experience and growth. Many are still kids themselves.
Makes me wonder why she would have been considered in the first place. :?
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This should have been the very 1st question.
If yes, will she sleep with you to keep her jorb??
pandora, A few of us sat in on the interview. WE voted 2-1 to give her a 3 month trial. The two of us (me being one of them) and the other being the principal of the school who is fantastic. She is great and I would love to one day model my teaching/interactions with the kids on her. The two of us thought that she could grow into the role. Yes 3 months is not long, but sufficient enough to say it isn't working.
Last night, she came up to me in front of one of the parents of a child saying something we were doing wrong(minor, just redtape stuff). In front of the parent.... You would I've worked in customer service for a long time, and you would never say anything negative about workplace infront of a customer.
Ii said 'next time you have something to say like that, please, do not say it in front of a parent as it is extremely unproffessional' Another cross next to her name...
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EV Sydney 13/02/2014
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yes I thought it was not your sole decision to hire but I still wonder
about taking a young person straight out of high school to fill a position of such responsibility.
Perhaps wage is a consideration... the need to keep it low/ perhaps minimum wage
and those with experience or continuing education may require a better salary.
Also I thought to work with kids there needs to be a license involved.
This license requiring a certain amount of hours in early childhood education.
My other question was did she work with kids before?
Perhaps she is experienced this being why she was chosen.
maybe a mothers helper.
So young, most of the kids I know worked part time,
fast food type summer jobs when they were in high school, often switching jobs.
If it was purely an opportunity given for someone so young I hope she can rise above this failure and not take it to heart because it appears she is probably out of there.
I hope she finds something more suited and her surgeries go well.
I admire her strength and this but one character builder on her path in life.
I'd like to see how she's doing in 10 years... I hope she rocks it!
What you need to ensure is that proper training/counseling/support, etc. is given to enable her to improve.
maybe her age is relevant... maybe its not... maybe shes just not suited to the role she was hired for.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
She has worked at a centre before, and also has some qualifications and is continuing to go to TAFE (which is like a college for not so smart people
As for workers, they can't have a criminal record/ crime against children (obviously). Also, we also try to do training days and stuff. You can get qualified through TAFE, which I have never done. But as I am doing a teaching degree, it surpasses that.
I don't think she knows yet, I think she is starting to put an effort in. I also question how the other staff interact with someone who is younger than them (not by much mind you, I am the oldest staff member there at 25) and who is in more power (even though she fails to show).
I too hope for the best for her. I do not dislike her, despite what has been written, but it is just hard...
Sydney 14/02/2003
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EV Sydney 13/02/2014
TAFE is like a college for not so smart people? If you were kidding about this...... har de har har.
If you weren't, then um, shame on you. I returned to study at TAFE after a long break raising four kids. I completed a Cert IV in Science first, to re-quaint myself with study and prepare for the concepts I'd be covering in my degree. I then went on to Uni and completed my degree and am now working in my chosen feild. TAFE isn't exactly a college for not so smart people, it's simply an alternative pathway for career goals. None of the people studying in my class were dumbarses, quite the opposite in fact. Most were mature age students who were returning to study to either enhance their current occupation, or to move in a completely different direction from their current one.
Aside from that...... in order for any organization to run smoothly, especially where children are concerned, you need the right people. If this girl isn't up to the standard expected, then gently let her go. I do question the sensibility of employing someone so young for a job (2 IC) with such responsibility though. Even if she looked great on paper, personally I would have started her in a less demanding role and allowed her to work her way up to that responsibility.
Again, if you were kidding on the TAFE comment, har de har har!
If she only has a short term contract, you could just let it finish and send her on her way, no explaination needed.
I agree with the other guys, attitude and respect to colleagues and customers is just as much of a job requirement as doing the other day to day tasks. If she can't /won't behave in a professional manner and you keep notes of instances when she acts or speaks out of turn, you have every right to let her go.
I have been in similar situations and dealt with it by having regular weekly one to one discussions with the person about what they think is acceptable and I fed back when I or other team members thought they had contradicted themselves. It might be uncomfortable for you but its part of being in charge of others and trust me, it's worth it and it works.
I'm assuming she wants this job. Not that she wants A job but that she actually wants the job she is doing. If she's going through the motions that might be why she doesnt take it seriously and a chat should bring this to light. You might be doing her a favour to send her off to persue her real interests.
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You must let her go.
You are displaying all of the traits of someone who has all the answers, but won't pull the trigger.
Here is how I handle all employees who are in their trial run. If I was starting my own company, would I hire this person.
'Yes' - she stays
'No' - she goes
Personality is one of the biggest factors for a close working relationship. If she doesn't fit in with you, and especially the expectations of the other board members, THEN STOP TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES TO KEEP HER.
(In fact what you are doing is making excuses to fire her, which is worse)
Your term has absolutely nothing to do with her injury, you just want to add on as much crap so you don't feel bad.
Guess what, firing people sucks. It feels bad. But sometimes it is the right thing to do for yourself and the organization.
The uppers have made it clear how they feel. You have made it clear how you feel. She is only there on a trial.
She did not pass the trial period.
I would move to immediate separation.
AS for TAFE, I spent two years at TAFE. IMO, it was no where near the standard of uni. Students, teachers, courses, attitudes everything. I went to TAFE before uni, and I went into uni completely lost and under-prepared. We were told several times 'basically, if you turn up you will pass.'
Teachers would often cancel their classes at no notice. SO after traveling two hours there just to return home was a joke. Teachers often left mid-term leaving the course incomplete and students twiddling their thumbs. Classes were changed last minute. And the curriculum was no good.
I do recognise that everyones TAFE experience is not like mine. But how we construct our view on the world is through personal experience. And, what I said above is my experience. TAFE is an institution that needs a lot of work. It does not compare to uni at all.
However, I do recognise its importance in furthering someones education. And of course, it is the place to go if you want a trade... So, I was only slightly knocking it...
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tafe was the drunkest 3 months of my life.
haha same here, two years in TAFE, so many idiots there so that they didn't have to work and collect youth allowance from Centerlink.
It was funny seeing them drop like flies, by the end there were a small group of us left.
Then I failed 3/4 of my subjects in my first semester in uni, it was so different to uni and a shock to me.
I didn't treat it seriously enough and was not prepared. I then pulled my socks up and aced it
Fair dinkum, this is almost identical to me. However, I passed my subjects. Only just... Nowadays its better.
Getting marks on a wide spectrum, Passes, credits, distinctions, got my 2nd HD in 3 and a half years of uni this week
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And it had absolutely nothing to do with her work performance.
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