A Reason to fight, A Reason to be.. completely full of shit?
fuck
Posts: 4,069
I'm going to post a link to something extremely disturbing and without apologies. If you click on it, consider yourself forewarned. The article is horrific, brutal, and contains the killing of a human by a christian in the name of God, supposedly for homosexuality. I consider stories like this to be truths we must be aware of and must hold in check with pleas of infinite tolerance. There are things which deserve no tolerance and which have no excuse. We live in a day and age where it is no longer as easy to stick our heads in the sand and pretend we simply didn't know. We also live in a world where the people casting such stones are also claiming to be the victims and that they deserve special treatments and protections. It's time we call a spade a spade.
One final warning... This link contains the stoning of a person and a murder by a christian in the name of his god.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/1 ... =fb&src=sp
I am not trying to hatemonger or anything of the sort. But tolerance, multiculturalism and other seemingly good things must have limitations and we must not once more turn a blind eye to atrocity as it spreads tentacles as it once did in places like nazi Germany. We must be vigilant and understand that there IS a spreading influence of Christianity and pushes for barbaric laws across the world. Barbarism is not limited to Christianity, and I make no such claim. But nonetheless, the claim that Christianity is purely a religion of peace while people carry out the murder of others under the decree of religious rulers is just absurd. There is something we must be aware of going on and something we must be willing to fight before it wins by default as we sleep. We should have a firm understanding of what we would consider an enemy to be, regardless of the religion, skin color, uniform or whatever guise it may take. And when we see it, we have to be willing to stand firm and fight against it in one way or another. After I read an article like this, I cannot help but pretend that I do not see an enemy which must be confronted and not appeased, welcomed or allowed to flourish. Again, this is not me saying all christians are bad, but I'm going to refuse to allow the truth that not all christians are bad to equate to a tolerance of this insanity. This is not the act of one madman on a rampage. This is organized and must be stopped.
My final solution: Let's invade the Vatican.
One final warning... This link contains the stoning of a person and a murder by a christian in the name of his god.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/1 ... =fb&src=sp
I am not trying to hatemonger or anything of the sort. But tolerance, multiculturalism and other seemingly good things must have limitations and we must not once more turn a blind eye to atrocity as it spreads tentacles as it once did in places like nazi Germany. We must be vigilant and understand that there IS a spreading influence of Christianity and pushes for barbaric laws across the world. Barbarism is not limited to Christianity, and I make no such claim. But nonetheless, the claim that Christianity is purely a religion of peace while people carry out the murder of others under the decree of religious rulers is just absurd. There is something we must be aware of going on and something we must be willing to fight before it wins by default as we sleep. We should have a firm understanding of what we would consider an enemy to be, regardless of the religion, skin color, uniform or whatever guise it may take. And when we see it, we have to be willing to stand firm and fight against it in one way or another. After I read an article like this, I cannot help but pretend that I do not see an enemy which must be confronted and not appeased, welcomed or allowed to flourish. Again, this is not me saying all christians are bad, but I'm going to refuse to allow the truth that not all christians are bad to equate to a tolerance of this insanity. This is not the act of one madman on a rampage. This is organized and must be stopped.
My final solution: Let's invade the Vatican.
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Sounded like it to me.
I see what you did there
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Please explain.
Dammit i never win, and i put real effort into being ignorant.
You win the "most ignorant poster of all time" award.
so is this man a defender of the faith or a cold blooded murderer?
and will his actions get him into heaven?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
it's not worth the stand
i've thought about it
i don't really beleive in it
i was just following
status quo
**Note, I don't actually think they should, just as I don't expect every Muslim leader to condemn every attack, nor every black leader to condemn every time someone from their community does something wrong.
Psalms 11:5 The soul of the Lord hates...those who love violence
Psalms 34:14 Turn from evil; do good; seek peace and pursue it
Psalms 44:6 My sword does not bring me victory...
Matthew 5:43 Love your enemies; pray for persecutors (words of Christ)
Matthew 26:52 All who take the sword will perish by the sword (words of Christ)
John 16:2 Anyone who kills you thinks he is offering service to God ...because they have not known the Father (words of Christ)
Did you have a specific example you were thinking of?
Would you make the same generalization of Islam as intolerant?
this thread is in response to a similar thread that someone else posted with regards to muslims ... tongue in cheek ...
I get it, but please understand I asked this question objectively.
I believe that religious fundamentalism (of the type that looks toward ancient texts as divine authority) and societies which base their laws and cultures heavily around these texts instead of around rationality, humanity, the scientific process, evidence, civility and the like are threats to existence in a day and age where weapons continue to progress. It is my belief that we are increasingly heading toward conflict based on religious ideologies and that if we do not investigate religions, reasons for religion, rationality of religions, etc... that we're on a very dangerous path. Far too often in our society discussion of religion is taboo. Investigation or outing of severe problems are also taboo. If we continue with these taboos, and we continue to let the seeds of fundamentalism spread throughout various religions, I feel we are in for a pretty dire future. I've found it just not worth the effort to try and have a civil focused discussion on religion on ths particular message board so I'm going to leave it at that. I'll be doing what I can in my own community to try and combat what I believe are the numerous problems of various religions and religiosity in general. I believe that religion was once a useful tool for explaining things, but we've since learned so much and we need to be basing our societies and structures on things other than religion. If you disagree, you're free to do so. I'd have loved to have had discussions on the matter, but I just didn't find people mature enough to avoid personal insults and the like here for me to continue the effort.
You're right, it's so hateful to say that we ought to take a stand and combat barbarism no matter who the victims are. I am also a racist and bigot for speaking up to try and defend people who are being stoned to death, tortured, or otherwise persecuted by religious fanatics. Perhaps you failed to read that in my original post I was quite adamant in making a case for the rights of women (especially muslim women), muslims being persecuted based on sharia laws, christians being burned to death for their faith, etc, etc, etc. Yep, we ought to be silent when faced with such barbarism and if we dare speak out against it and believe we should vehemently take a stand to confront barbarism, we are indeed labeled as hatemongers. It is hatemongering to hold the view that we ought not be idle while people actively seek to spread religious zealotry and force others to captitulate to their zealotry. It must also be hatemongering to think that journalists, cartoonists, authors and others ought to not have to fear for their lives for daring to use their freedom of speech and expression. Do you honestly see all the evidence which was posted in the original thread which you seek to mock and somehow find that I am the one who is hatemongering? You're quite certain that it's not the organized efforts of people seeking to spread their religion through racism, jihad, stonings, burning opposing religious people, flying airplanes into skyscrapers... the people seeking the most lethal methods of killing civilians that they can get their hands on. You honestly think that I'm the hatemonger for saying, "Hey, let's not let this spread and let's not let them abuse multiculturalism and our own civility to their gain. Let's take an active stand and combat this provable barbarism." You really want me to capitulate and wash it all away by saying something as silly as, "But hey, at least it's not all muslims or all religious people." We all know that it isn't all of them. I painfully pointed out that I made no such claim as all muslims are bad people. What I did do is point out, with factual evidence, that there are organized efforts across many nations and involving many muslim groups to spread dangerous religious fundamentalism based on ancient texts which if followed to their natural conclusion, lead to horrific outcomes and atrocities. The atrocities have been proven. Why does taking a stand against them and their root causes, and the fact that people are organizing efforts to expand their abhorrent views make one a hatemonger in your eyes?
But again, I see that your end of the argument relies upon namecalling (I'm a hatemonger, racist, bigot, and more according to what people have said here) and you erect pathetic straw man arguments, like the one you started this thread with to tackle something completely other than what was being addressed with evidence and research throughout multiple pages of a different thread. Anyway, you and Byrnzie can ignore the issues presented if you want. I'll just remind you that the original thread was not about Christianity nor Americans but sought to address Islam, fundamentalism and sharia. You've done a magnificent job of sidestepping all of that and the evidence presented in your rush to toss some mud at me personally. I would also ask you how one like myself, who is seeking to investigate and critique religious fundamentalism and the inevitable conflicts it will produce, becomes the hatemonger compared to the religious people who profess things like infidels should be stoned, other religions' followers are akin to monkeys, homosexuals should be killed, etc., etc., etc. You really think I'm the hatemongerer and those people are not? Do you think it is really only ten people out there who hold fundamentalist beliefs of various religions or something? You don't think fundamentalist beliefs produce horrific outcomes and make them quite excusable in the context of their faith? You can't see the hatred people can conjure based upon religious fundamentalism and you think I am wrong to take offense to it or to speak out against it? I am not speaking out against an enemy or viewpoint which I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt exists and is actively seeking to spread. But again, your cheap shots and evasion of actual discussion show me that you're not actually interested in discussion or heaven forbid, possibly even learning something.
So I guess I'll go on with my "hatemongering" and intolerance of intolerable actions like stonings, beheadings, burning people alive, and other persecutions and you can live happily in your world where you must either pretend these things don't exist or you simply don't care that they do. You have your path, I have mine.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
look at what non-muslims did to joan of arc
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
That's a pretty weak example. Joan of Arc's execution was politically motivated as she helped The Dauphin rise to power. The religious aspect and crime of heresy was simply a facade.
Joan of Arc is a Catholic Saint, after all.
yes, yes, nearly 500 years after the church convicted her of being a relapsed heretc then burning her body down to ashes and dumping them they made her a saint.....how nice of them.
but yer right, it wasn't the churches fault they found her guilty, sentenced her to and burned her to death, it was all politics..... :roll:
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
It should not be offensive to stick to one topic at a time on a message board. I started a topic to discuss the islamic faith and several times invited others to start topics about whatever other faiths or concerns they might have had while asking politely that people stick to the focused topic on which I created the particular thread. That's just forum etiquette. I *tried* to keep people on the particular topic and faith being discussed in the other thread. If people jump all over the place and into ten different religions and thirty different scenarios and fifteen different groups of people, well... then there is a lack of focus and depth and nothing much fruitful will come from the discussion. As you can see from just about any thread on this message board, if people try to tackle more than one topic and can't focus on even one religion at a time, nothing fruitful or in depth ever gets discussed. Now we're on to Joan of Arc. I'm fully aware and in agreement that there are problems with other religions, including Christianty. However, how a person can take offense at me asking people to stick to the particular topic of a thread which I initiated? It is also not a defense or denial of the atrocities I proved were being carried out in the name of Islam by fundamentalists to say that atrocities also happen in other faiths. That is, by definition, beside the point being addressed. I firmly believe that if people could table our multiculturalism and political correctness manners for a moment and just look at the facts and the evidence of one particular faith to start with, that we could objectively see problems and that just about any sane person who was not influenced by the particular faith would state that they were witnessing madness and barbarity. I am fully aware that horrific acts in the name of religion have occured in multiple religions. But that isn't doing anything to address that currently in Islam, there is a movement to spread fundamentalist ideologies and barbaric atrocities are taking place and people are making organized efforts to expand these fundamentalist ideologies in ways we would prefer to not believe, but that are provable.
This particular thread started off the rails in the first place, and I am not going to fool myself that I can get it back on the right set of tracks at this point. Barbarism IStaking place in the modern world in the name of Islam and there ARE organized efforts by fundamentalists and governments to spread ideologies which most sane people would reject easily. We cannot allow the fact that other religions have committed atrocities to paralyze us into inaction or to turning a blind eye. And we cannot allow multicultural idealism to also paralyze us into nonsensical inaction or labeling people who speak out against barbarism as hatemongerers.
The bolded part is the biggest part I have a problem with. I'm confident you've never even read the Qur'an. Not once is stoning mentioned in the Qur'an. There are many efforts within the Muslim community being made to counter things that are seen by many as un-Islamic, such as female circumcision and stoning, and instead seen as actions/rulings imported from cultural, or even other religious norms, into Islamic rulings. What you have done here however is dismiss the ongoing discussion within the Muslim community, and decided to involve yourself in this discussion, without first committing yourself to studying the religion in any way whatsoever. I mean, the shit you write is proof that you know very little about the religion. I don't need to sit here and justify my point. The 'good Muslims' in your eyes are the ones who 'don't follow the Qur'an literally' am i right? You probably think the Qur'an is another version of the Old Testament, where Muslims can just disregard many things written in the Qur'an since it's an "ancient text" not suitable to our times. Well, you're wrong. Nothing can be disregarded in the Qur'an, and every Muslim agrees with that, because nothing in the Qur'an is as you say it is.
You also lack any knowledge regarding what the Shari`ah is in general, and that's also evident by the way you speak of it. Every utterance of 'religious law' is impossible for you without adding the word 'barbaric' with it. And what even qualifies as barbaric? Is stoning barbaric because it hasn't caught up to the latest technology of lethal injection? I guess using a typewriter is barbaric then, since we have all these sweet computers and iPads out now.
But seriously, is dropping bombs and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians not barbaric? Since you lack any knowledge on Islam other than the random videos you watch of stonings, why don't you shut the fuck up and protest something you can actually actively participate in, like the actions your Western government have been taking in killing Arabs, occupying their countries, destroying the chances of democracy and fueling Islamic fundamentalism by their imperialist policies, instead of you just undermining the Islamic reformist movement by talking your nonsense that only makes people think that Americans/Westerns have declared war on Islam? You may not be attacking all, or even most Muslims. But you are attacking the religion and its sacred book, and by the looks of it you are doing it ignorantly. I don't like to participate in religious discussions with someone who lacks the fundamental knowledge of the religion and its history and law, etc. It is much more sophisticated than you make it out to be. You're also basing the entire Shari`ah based on very few rulings made by certain schools, and imposed by certain governments following certain schools. But as to Shari`ah itself, there is no discussion to have with you on it because you are not capable of one. You want to frame the discussion around what you wanna talk about: stoning, sexism, etc. But you cannot start a conversation on Islam or Shari`ah around these hot topics of yours before understanding everything surrounding it. You have much reading/research to do before you can reach a level to talk about that, and I'm not even trying to be demeaning, this is just fact. You can't talk about fucking multivariable regression in Econometrics and how to apply it to questions on Economics before understanding fundamentals of Economics. Any subject is like that.
What I write probably will not change your mind on anything, and that's probably because you're too committed to combatting religion as you so claim it, but atleast take one thing away from this: study it before you dismiss it entirely. Your war against religion is unjustified and based on very recent stereotypes in the last hundred years or so. you claim that you don't want religion involved in government or society, but that you want one based on 'Rationality', 'Science', etc. Religion does not conflict with any of those ideals, and this is just further proof of your lack of legitimate research regarding Islam, because had you done any you'd be bound to come across many, many books about Islam's rationality, or its relationship with science, etc etc etc. All your criticisms of Islam sound like you're just copying the same criticisms people use against Christianity verbatim, with the addition of looking up videos of stonings. They're not the same religion whatsoever and in many fundamental principles they diverge. Quit playing this game, it's not cute and no one is smiling except you. Go protest against the barbaric policies of your government, quit trying to talk about another religion of which you have no knowledge on and quit undermining the actual movements going on within it with your nonsense.
To correct you with fact, I have done quite a bit of reading and studying of the Quran at this point. In fact, much more than should be expected of somebody who finds its basic premise laughable. That’s not to say that there isn’t some wisdom in it. There’s plenty of wisdom in other works of fiction too. There’s important lessons to be learned and there’s some actual history in it which can be cross-referenced with other sources. However, there is also comical content in it if one reads it with modern information and understandings of science. It is ripe with text that can be cherry-picked for essentially any purpose, just as horoscope can be cherry-picked for seemingly mystical truths. To say that I don’t believe that Muhammad is the prophet and that the Quran is really what we need to build legal systems, societal structures, etc… well, that would be an understatement. So far, nobody has been able to prove that it is despite all the burnings, stonings, rhetoric, religious states, enlightened teachings, academia, research, etc. Believers have faith, but not proof. If I’m wrong, I invite Allah to appear to me tonight and change my mind personally. Don’t even remotely take that as an invitation for some jihadi zealot to show up to my house with a knife to “convince” me or some other such nonsense. But I’m quite certain I’ll wake in the morning and happily report that once again, another night has passed and Allah has not convinced me of his existence. The words of the Quran have not inspired me to convert. But let me guess, it’s because I have not learned Arabic to read it in and feel its power or something, right? Ok, so I think even you will yield to the point that people may have faith that this book is sacred and such, but they do not have proof for those who are not indoctrinated.
On the opposite side, I can and have been providing proof of people who individually and also in organized masses have used Islamic faith to commit atrocities. What am I calling barbaric? Things like stonings for adultery, stripes (such a polite word for the violence actually inflicted), beheadings, language directly lifted from the Quran which almost any person not indoctrinated into the faith would easily identify as dangerous, scary and threatening to understood norms of modern civility. It’s there, it exists, it can be factually proven. You can’t deny the stoning, the beheadings, the potentially dangerous language contained in the Quran and other things which take place in the name of the Islamic faith which I can factually prove are real. Relying on the Quran as the truth, the framework, etc. is a great way to develop systemic problems in a society and culture. We are seeing that currently. We see it in other religious fundamentalism too which has nothing to do with Islam, but rather showcases the problem in general of taking an ancient text (fact… it’s old… 600s, please meet the 2000s) so literally on subjects which clearly cannot be factually and scientifically proven.
I’ve spent a fair chunk of time learning about the life and times of the supposed prophet (and I’m quite sure it tears at you to see me write about him as such) and I did this of my own volition. My impression is that you sort of have the expectation that a person must become a muslim or do the equivalent of spend a childhood growing up in the indoctrination before one can speak about problems of the Islamic faith. I’ve watched lectures (something like 14 hours worth in one series I watched), read directly from the Quran, looked for problems, looked for awe-inspiring wisdom, looked for how it was compiled, studied into the life and times of Muhummad and more. If that’s not enough to form an opinion or to see problems, I’m not sure what more can be expected. Am I the resident expert? Nope, not in the least. I’m curious to learn more, but am pretty certain I’m not going to have an epiphany any time soon that makes me a convert. This probably makes me lost, kafir, and worse in your eyes and that in itself is scary. Look at how you’re treating me in your words and contempt, yet I’m to be inspired by the holy book you seem to cling to that has supposedly offered enlightenment to so many such as yourself? You appear to me to be pretty rude, aggressive and mocking.
I’m glad there are muslims working to counter much of the zealotry, but it still will not address the basic problem of believing an old book is the word of a god (sorry, THE god according to its adherents) which you cannot prove, yet expect others to submit to. If I grant to you that the Quran is to always be taken literally, then you are exactly proving my point that there is an imminent danger and lack of rationality and skeptical inquiry even possible. If you base legal systems on a holy text which is believed to be literal revelations and such from a prophet, well, they aren’t really subject to challenge or evolution to changing times and situations and populations. In other words, you have a stagnating situation which people can choose selective passages from (as they factually do) to support abhorrent actions and abuses. I argue that fundamentalism (of any religion) which sees ancient books or any book for that matter as unquestionable truth and revelations from divinity to be dangerous and ripe for abuse. If any group latched onto any book with such fervor and spun off things like legal systems and much more from it, most sane people can easily see the abundant problems to this. It can’t realistically be challenged, authority figures easily develop to exploit, etc, etc, etc. The defense is always the same, “but no really… THIS book is the one and is the truth, I promise!” Religious fundamentalism just doesn’t stay compatible with rational thought and inquiry and obviously isn’t very good at adaptation. Stoning may not be in the Quran, but lashings certainly are. Most people think lashings in this day and age are barbaric for punishment, but people who start from within the indoctrination of the faith find it much easier to excuse and accept lashings as punishment than those who are not similarly indoctrinated. I’m quite convinced that if there were a section on stoning in the Quran, you would find it pretty easy to justify stoning because you start with the assumption that whatever is in the Quran is right, instead of using your own rationality and experiences first. Think about that for awhile with an open mind and some self reflection. Stonings are mentioned as punishments in the Bible. Wouldn’t you find it barbaric if Christians were running around advocating stonings for various things because their holy book was being taken literally? I think you would easily do so. There are equally silly, threatening, outdated and absurd things in the Bible and the Quran to a reader not indoctrinated into either faith reading them objectively. Granting your premise that no muslim can disregard any part of the Quran, it is very reasonable to look for problems that arise from this. And I can assure you, limited study reveals they are abundant. Actions and atrocities taking place in the modern world by people chanting the name of Allah are further evidence of potential horrendous consequences of such literalism and faith in a supposed prophet and a supposedly holy book.
Again, it is easy to jump to other atrocities in the world such as civilians being killed by bombings. It is horrific, barbaric, whatever else you may want to call it. But nonetheless it IS beside the point of whether or not fundamentalist belief in the Quran poses significant threats to civilization, society, western ideals of liberty, freedom of religion, and maintaining standards which have long done away with things like lashings. I’ve proven with evidence that groups are working hard to export sharia laws, fundamentalist ideologies and militant Islam throughout the world. I have proven that there are horrific crimes being perpetrated with disturbing frequency under the banner of Islam. I can prove that authors and cartoonists are being attacked, threatened and killed by people based on belief in an ancient text. These things are provable. The benevolence, truth, validity, perfection and such of Allah are not. At least not while we’re alive and I’m quite happy to take my chances on the afterlife being free of Allah’s wrath just as I’m sure you’re quite content to believe Zeus will not be waiting to kick your ass after your death. I’m not afraid of your Allah in the exact same way you’re not afraid of Zeus. I am afraid of many of the zealots who would be happy to threaten me or attack me for daring to make such a statement in any mass of them. You cannot deny that there are quite a few places I would have to fear for my life to make such a statement and I will fight with my dying breath to protect my right to hold and express such opinions. Again, remind me who the hatemongers really are. Oh, it’s me, right? Not the people so obsessed with the Quran and their beliefs that they believe I should be attacked, threatened or killed for daring to speak against their beloved god? I’m the one talking nonsense, instead of the zealots who would kill me for speaking against their holy book, right? I’m the one who is filled with hate, and not them, right? I’m the one who is woefully uneducated, and not them, right?
I can assure you that my critique goes far beyond having a problem with the latest incarnation of Islam or its current “image problem.” The basic idea of a book from the 600s being so revered that people spend their entire lives dedicated to it, that so much blood is spilled for it, that so many people want to force belief in it upon others, and that so much of a schism between human beings is caused because of it (and other holy books)… well, it’s all a damn shame and something I try to do my small part to combat.
Anyway, I’m off to bed and like I mentioned earlier, I’m quite certain your precious Allah will not visit me tonight and enlighten me to the contrary of my current opinion of “him.”