Education Probs in US
mikepegg44
Posts: 3,353
I have thought about this a lot these past few months as I contemplate my Daughter's future, I think we are all agreed that Education at all levels could be better and more affordable, but what is the real problem? Is it the system itself or the participants in it?
Personally I feel that whatever you put into your education you will get out of it...if you slack off eventually you will burn out of school somewhere along the line, if you work hard at it you will continually be rewarded...
hopefully we can get some educators to chime in with their feelings.
This isn't a partisan issue so let's not make it one today!!!
Personally I feel that whatever you put into your education you will get out of it...if you slack off eventually you will burn out of school somewhere along the line, if you work hard at it you will continually be rewarded...
hopefully we can get some educators to chime in with their feelings.
This isn't a partisan issue so let's not make it one today!!!
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
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I think that's a big part of it. My kids aren't school-age yet, so I'm only speaking about this from my own (long ago) experience.
I slacked off a lot in school... I was smart enough to get by with minimal effort, and have always had the ability to quickly learn how to do well in a class and to figure out how the teacher asked questions on tests. So, I took shortcuts wherever I could.
But it seems like many years later, the teachers I still remember positively, are ones who pushed me the hardest.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
how can parents be lazy and work 5 jobs?
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I just really think the whole education system needs to be changed to do away with the whole k-12 chronology. Kids aren't really all that well prepared to enter the world when they are finished with High school, and I think our system needs to address that. 50 years ago, a diploma got you a great job and thus the state provided it for you, now we make kids pay for a two year degree to be an electrician, why on earth can a kid not come out of high school with the knowledge of a trade if they choose that way of life. Things need to change ...too many resources are wasted because of the mentality that everyone needs to learn the same and be treated the same way.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Very well said and I couldn't agree more
Ya, that sounded stupid. What I meant was, it seems that parents are too lazy at being parents. Ultimately when you have parents that don't care, you have kids that don't care.
i second this.
as for the parental aspect my wife and i have made a conscious decision to have her at home with our kids and the benefits have been tremendous. not to say our kids don't mess up, but i think they've had a real advantage by having mom at home when they're home to help with school, friends, life in general.
i'm not knocking two-income homes or single parents, i realize that some don't have a choice and we are blessed. but at the same time we have chosen to do without many things in order to give our kids this advantage. we don't have a newer home, and we don't drive nice cars, we're not wearing designer clothes, and life has been paycheck to paycheck, but it's a trade we're willing to make in order to do the best we can for our kids.
on the other side i think there is serious room for reform when it comes to our educational system.
1)Students not trying hard enough/putting effort into their education
2)Lack of a supportive school environment for those students who do try and want to succeed (careless/ underqualified teachers, lack of discipline/control within the classroom, student culture such as making fun of or bullying those that want to excel, among others)
3)Parents too busy/not putting an effort into watching their kids and their progress, not following up with teachers through conferences, etc...
4)Decline in the quality of the education you get (easier exams, lowering the bar on the curriculum)
5)An overall lack of enthusiasm for education and learning
I worked in the education field for a few years and it was a very challenging job. Those kids that wanted to learn were not given the attention, push or being challenged enough. There were too many disruptions within the classroom which led to wasted time that could have been spent explaining subject matter. I saw some parents got involved and attended conferences, took care to try to ensure their children did their homework. Others were unable to help with basic things on their homework because they themselves didn't know how to do them (various social factors).
So, overall, I think we have a multi-faceted problem that really needs attention. We need to motivate children and push them to learn and seek education. It's bad enough we read reports about our country really falling behind in the number of students who are competent in the sciences and math. There must be some change to turn that trend around and I believe it begins with the parents and educators collaborating together to ensure students learn something!
Lina
I wanna race..with the sundown..I want a last breath..I don't let out...
i think its a bit naive to say that the reason parents work so much is because they want to have a big house.
many work that much just to survive
it's like this ... the problem is that america (the corporate system) requires a significant uneducated population ... it's the only way you can send kids to illegal wars overseas and continue to do the things they do without domestica reprisal ... secondly, america favours the rich ... sure, there are welfare programs and food stamps and what not but at the end of the day ... the mantra that if you work hard enough - you can accomplish anything in the states is a myth ...
the reality is that certain groups have advantages and although there are race implications here, it is predominantly dictated by class ... in the case of education ... a public school education varies from place to place ... if budgets for education are based largely on property taxes then - is it any wonder that schools in rich neighbourhoods get more money while schools in poor neighbourhoods get less? ... well, that's your disparity there ... not all kids have access to free quality education and that's why if you grow up poor - you have to work extra hard ... dropout rates for kids in poor income families is like 10 times higher than those of high income families ...
the country governs for those who have and the gap is only getting bigger ...
Of course, I also think a big part of the problem are parents.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think your response was well thought out but it indicates part of the underlying issue for me
first this
the mantra that if you work hard enough - you can accomplish anything in the states is a myth ...
and then the rest of it adds to this.
It isn't a myth. It just isn't the same amount of effort for everyone. But once someone in your family chooses to make that effort, it becomes easier for generations after them. It is really easy to stay where you are, it is really hard to move up, which do you think most people do? Ultimately everyone wants everything, but so many do not want to put forth the effort to get it. I know in minneapolis that property taxes and other things pay the schools budgets, and they are separated amongst the public schools. There is also open enrollment throughout the entire metro area meaning that I could go to any school I choose from any of the surrounding cities and counties. Kind of eliminates what you talk about doesn't it? yet minnesota schools are getting worse, not because the teachers are dumber(maybe they are I guess)...Conflict theorists constantly look at bi-products and find a reason...whether there is causation or not...they look through the way they see the world and fit what they see into it.
Remember, education levels at ALL public schools are dropping, not just the poor ones...it is a collective problem that all classes are facing
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
it is a myth ... even without getting into the semantics of it all ... the system now favours heavily those who have vs. those who have not ... it is why so many people seek the shortcut to fame either through reality tv shows or sports ... i have good friends who live in the states and the quality of public education sucks for the most part but when you get to a poor neighbourhood - it's tragically sad ... i believe this is purposeful ... education much like health care is a socialist principle and americans for the most part aren't socialists ...
I think it's definitely good to have the choice, but I don't think we should let it go private.
Privatizing education would be going backwards... Like always, you have to take into account those who are unable to afford education. A child's opportunity to learn should never be a factor of their parent's income (that's what university is for :geek: )
Clinton is a great example of what happens when you take your ability and use it.
http://www.notablebiographies.com/Ch-Co ... -Bill.html
seriously, I realize that not everyone will have a chance to grow up to be a millionaire, but that doesn't mean you cannot or that it is a myth...the word doesn't even apply here.
Being that you have a pretty good handle on what it is to be an American, why do you think it is a myth. And to say that the American school system is poor BY DESIGN is ridiculous, again, conflict theorists simply taking the end result and applying what they think is happening. Are schools in the inner city great, no, are they great anywhere seemingly not and that is the question that is being asked...my question was more about what is the bigger issue, the actual quality of the education or the participants in it?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I think my dad would argue with you on this. He made it through high school, and entered the Army. He served a few years, and after he got out he was destitute. He drank, smoked, and pissed what little money he had until he was flat broke. When I say broke, I mean, living under a bridge broke....literally. I remember as a kid whenever we were down in the Houston area, he would always drive by the bridge he lived under and we'd stop there. I didn't really appreciate it much at the time, but I sure as hell do now.
Anyway, he lived like this for about a year. He told me at that time in his life he had no friends, he had broken away from his family, he had no money and no hope. He would walk over to the gas station across the street and use the bathroom to wash himself. One day he just looked in the mirror, and it just struck him at how bad he looked. He decided then and there he wasn't going to live like that any more. He washed himself, panhandled a little money, bought a razor and a pair of scissors to try and clean himself up. He walked to the other side of the street to try and get a job at a fried chicken place. They knew his situation there, but they gave him a job cutting up chicken in the back of the restaurant. Over the following year he busted his ass working various jobs, including rough necking on an oil derrick. After 6 months he was able to move out from under the bridge and actually get a small efficiency in the back of a hardware store. This is where he met my mom, because my grandmother owned the hardware store. He pushed himself and he went back to school, just taking basic college courses. Then he decided he wanted to become a doctor, so he adjusted his schooling to fall in line with that career path. In his 3rd year he was involved in a horrible car crash that left him partially paralyzed, unable to walk, and unable to speak. Doctors told my mom he wouldn't be able to finish school, and he'd be lucky to walk again. Well, 5 years later, he proved them wrong when he walked across the stage to get his diploma. From there he spent the next 25 years as a fairly prominent physician in our area.
I guess the point is, when my dad was living under a bridge there weren't people telling him you might as well not even waste your time. He realized that if things were going to change, and if his life was going to go anywhere at all, it was up to him to make that happen. I have told him a million times he needs to write a book about this, because it has been a huge inspiration to me, and I think it could be an inspiration to others as well.
1) as someone pointed out in the previous page we are so intent on having everyone learn at the same pace but life doesn't work that way. and not everyone should be or can be in college-prep. there should be more technical training for those not ready to follow down that path. or some new and different form of teaching. clearly the open a book and read a chapter method is not as relevant today as it was in the 60s, 70s and 80s. we need to incorporate more of today's technologies in educating. there are too many kids who aren't reached in today's model of education. i barely liked the book policy when i was in school, today's kids with less attention span because of the technoligies sure as heck aren't going to respond to that.
2) segregation - not in the racial sense but students with an aptitude and a willingness should be separate from those without. one of the main problems in the inner city schools is the unruly ones often dictate the pace of the curriculum. those unruly students either need to be separated or sent to a different school. here in the philly suburbs there is a court-adjucated school where kids in trouble with the law at an early age are sent for schooling. it is almost military style but the school has remarkable success with these students. we need a system of these types of schools to segregate the unruly criminal elements from our schools to allow for those who want to learn the ability to learn in a safe environment. one of the biggest probems today is you are not allowed to throw kids out of public schools so even if a kid commits a crime at school most often he is sent right back to the same environment which hinders the possibility of true discipline. until a kid is 18 they can't be thrown out of a public school because the law says we have to educate everyone. i believe separating those willing to learn from those unwilling would have long-range cultural effects as well.
3) teachers must be given the ability to discipline students, teach in their way but also cannot be free to hold a job forever once they achieve tenure. too often bad teachers are protected by the system created by the teachers union.
4) school choice - the current model of local schools doesn't work in certain neighborhoods. like my segration points above school choice should be given so parents willing and able can send their children not to the neighborhood school if it is not good enough but to a school that can more cater to their needs. unfortunately the wealthy class would probably not approve of this but if certain goals are not met then those students should not be allowed to go out of their area. in essence if you are a higher level student in a bad school you should have an opportunity to go somewhere else to learn. we need to give those who want the opportunties the ability to get them whenever possible. in essense a system of private-like schools.
5) grade schools - personally i never understood the one teacher or two teacher per grade at the elementary school level. maybe the time has come to alter the formula and have even elementary school teachers be proficient in one subject, and have the children go to do different teachers. i know the argument at the younger ages is that this may hinder growth. not sure what age this would work for but i think it is an idea that could be useful.
in closing i'd pretty much say the system we have now, like many in the USA, is outdated and needs a major overhaul. unfortunately in our litigious society and in a society where any perceived slight of anyone is made into a major offense the chances of major overhaul are slim and none. until as a people we want to stop blaming overs and look at each of the root causes of the problems and come up with new radical solutions it will most likely only decay further. unfortunately today we spend way too much time and money in education on too many things unrelated to actually educating children.
shawshank - that's a great story ... i wish there were more ...
and yes - i do believe education levels are purposefully set ... just look at where the US ranks in education vs. the rest of the world ... being the sole superpower and richest country - there is no excuse for the US not to lead the world in education and yet they are so far behind ... also, if you account for the education gap - it's even worse ...
I agree 1,000% with this statement. There is no excuse for it. None whatsoever. I fully believe we should invest much much more in education, whether some people see doing so as the "S" word or not is really irrelevant. I believe we should make schools much more competitive, and make them strive for excellence and reward that excellence. That's one thing I love about the schools my kids go to. They are ranked extremely well in not only Texas, but on a national scale, and out of district people pay big money to have their kids go to school here.
you can do the quick version, I have a degree in sociology. I understand and have read many of the same things you do. The issue I have always had with sociology as a "science" is that the generalizations that come from studying the group rarely apply to the individual. That being said it is hard for any sociologist to accurately discuss the American dream...myth or not...anyone who works hard can achieve better things than if they were to give up, and that is just a universal rule.
I am sorry you think the US purposely makes people stupid...and there is no excuse for the US to not lead the world...but I can guarantee you we differ on why we think it trails behind. It certainly isn't funding, the countries ahead of the US have a different CULTURE when it comes to education, they value it and it shows in their work. That is why I asked the question to begin with, is it the individual participants fault or the system itself...there are definite problems but those can certainly be overcome(to a limit that is for certain) if one works hard enough at their education...
but as judge smails put it, the world needs ditch diggers too.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
haha ... i don't think there is a quick version ... but lets say race, class, gender dynamics play a role in opportunities ... is the glass ceiling a myth for women? ... i don't think so ...
no need to apologize for what my beliefs are ... it's how i see it ... you can't continue to send people overseas to ruin other countries if the populace was aware ...
but to your point ... i would put much of the blame on the system ... every child at the very least should be afforded the same base level of education that should allow them to attend post-secondary institutions ... sure, how far they get should be proportional to the work they put in ... but as you know ... that isn't the reality i am seeing ...
now, i may not live in the US ... but I do and have spent a lot of time there ... i've been to well over 40 states ... from big cities to small nowhere towns ... north, east, south, west ... all over ... and my observations have formed my beliefs ...
"With our thoughts we make the world"
exactly ...
I teach at a university, and the courses I teach are mostly made up of freshman and sophomores. Last semester, I was happy to see that out of 32 students the large majority were not going into a business-related field. Most were going into the sciences, or the medical field. I know this may change, but it was nice to see - we need more doctors, we need more scientists. We do not need more hedge fund managers; we do not need more Goldman Sachs drones. Unfortunately, I feel that a handful, or more, of these students will change their minds when they see where the $$ is. $$$ is God.
I cannot believe that I am at the point of asking students, and reminding them, to put the fucking phones away, or to not check their facebook pages every minute if they use a laptop. I see a lack of personal responsibility; I see a false attitude of entitlement; I see a lack of accountability; I see a lack of awareness; I see a lack of civic engagement. I asked my classes if anyone watched or read the State of the Union: only 4 or 5 students did. They do not have any clue as to what is going on in this country, nor does anyone else. And why should people be aware of what is going on in their own country? Why would they be when celebrities are dancing on TV? Why would they be when a handful of morons are parading around a beach town? Why would they be when there is a sale at the mall?
I know some of you might say, "well, it's not all their fault." Of course it isn't, but I wanted to inform everyone on what I see. The youth of today - mainly those in high school and college - are the result of a culture so saturated with materialism, consumerism, gluttony, selfishness, a warped sense of individualism, docile behavior, and so on.
We are all to blame. This is the culture we have created, or better yet, this is the culture we have allowed to be created for us. We blindly follow because we can accumulate all the wealth and materials that we desire and that is all that matters. We feed our insatiable appetites with material possessions without once thinking to check the tag to see that every damn thing we buy is made in China, or Thailand, or Indonesia, etc., likely in sweat shops.
The obesity rate in this country is a staggering and disgusting 32%, and this is in direct correlation to our lazy (physically and intellectually) culture. (By the way, obesity related illnesses count for roughly 200 billion health care costs wasted per year). It makes me sick.
It is OUR fault.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon