Senator Rand Paul proposes $500B in cuts

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Comments

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    He wants to get rid of the Federal Department of Education. True. The States have their own, and another level of it is not necessary. I agree with this move.

    Libertarianism is rooted in classical Liberalism, which sounds exactly like what you are talking about-- that their IS a responsibility to your fellow man in your dealings. Everyone has a role, and is free to choose that role, but bears the responsibility of doing that role honestly and without harm to anyone else, and assumes no right to anyone else's life or property. In this way, libertarians are just like socialists.

    However, we do not believe the state serves any real efficiency in making sure that society plays like a team outside of providing common defense, enforcing contracts between consenting parties by acting as a just third party, and protecting life, liberty, and property.

    Same goal, different implementation if you ask me.

    yeah ... i know the individual rights of the states are important to you guys however, i believe education should be mandated and regulated at the national level ... that is should be free or at least heavily subsidized ...

    as for the philosophies ... i think what it boils down to is what would work best in society ... knowing full well what most people would do without regulations, mainly corporations, i have no faith that this society would do what's best for all as opposed to just looking out for themselves ...
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    i think he wants to make cuts to education as well ...

    i think what people need to realize is that governing is more than 3 or 4 points or issues ... elected representatives make decisions on a plethora of issues and points ...

    conservatives and those on the right are great at focusing on the issues key to their voters which ultimately are taxes and "freedom" ... but they also vote on things like prop 8 in california and other issues ... that's when their ideologue plays a factor ...

    as a socialist - i believe in many aspects of the libetarian system however, there are many things that i don't believe in ...

    like i've been saying - life is a team sport ... the societies that will work best will always be ones that put team goals ahead of personal goals ... it's not that socialism wants to limite freedoms - just simply, that ones desires for personal desires should never outweigh those of the people ...
    Thats all well and good, but when are you going to realize human dynamics??? Socialism acts as if greed does not exist. Humans are individuals first and foremost, you need to recognize that, we are not slaves.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats all well and good, but when are you going to realize human dynamics??? Socialism acts as if greed does not exist. Humans are individuals first and foremost, you need to recognize that, we are not slaves.

    if anything socialism recognizes human dynamics ... hence the need for government and regulations ... i'm not sure where i've said greed does not exist and that socialism equates to slavery ...
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats all well and good, but when are you going to realize human dynamics??? Socialism acts as if greed does not exist. Humans are individuals first and foremost, you need to recognize that, we are not slaves.

    if anything socialism recognizes human dynamics ... hence the need for government and regulations ... i'm not sure where i've said greed does not exist and that socialism equates to slavery ...
    No you, Socialism simply does not recognize greed.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    HeidiJam wrote:
    No you, Socialism simply does not recognize greed.

    uhhhh ... a large reason for socialism is in fact greed ... i'm not sure what your ideas of socialism are and from where you got it but i am pretty sure socialism acknowledges the existence of greed ...
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    No you, Socialism simply does not recognize greed.

    uhhhh ... a large reason for socialism is in fact greed ... i'm not sure what your ideas of socialism are and from where you got it but i am pretty sure socialism acknowledges the existence of greed ...
    Please expalin how...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    No you, Socialism simply does not recognize greed.

    uhhhh ... a large reason for socialism is in fact greed ... i'm not sure what your ideas of socialism are and from where you got it but i am pretty sure socialism acknowledges the existence of greed ...
    Is socialism just theory? What countries / governments can be referenced as success stories for socialism?
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Please expalin how...

    socialists place greater value on the wants and needs of the masses vs. the individual ... modern day socialism recognizes that given free reign and without restrictions - people would act strictly on their own self interests and that although the majority of people are not selfish or greedy ... the few that are would wreak a significant impact to those who are not ...

    socialists believe in government and the need to regulate things like health care and education and the environment ... given free reign - socialists do not believe that corporations will act in the best interests of society but for themselves ... so, if that means dumping toxic waste into a watershed - that is what a corporation will do ...

    care to explain why you think socialists do not acknowledge greed?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    Is socialism just theory? What countries / governments can be referenced as success stories for socialism?

    haven't we been thru this? ... it's no more a theory than capitalism is ... every theory has to be tweaked but there needs to be a foundation ...

    if you look at any index or study of the best countries in the world to live ... they all employ a socialist foundation to governance and society ...

    http://www.newsweek.com/feature/2010/th ... tries.html
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Please expalin how...

    socialists place greater value on the wants and needs of the masses vs. the individual ... modern day socialism recognizes that given free reign and without restrictions - people would act strictly on their own self interests and that although the majority of people are not selfish or greedy ... the few that are would wreak a significant impact to those who are not ...

    socialists believe in government and the need to regulate things like health care and education and the environment ... given free reign - socialists do not believe that corporations will act in the best interests of society but for themselves ... so, if that means dumping toxic waste into a watershed - that is what a corporation will do ...

    care to explain why you think socialists do not acknowledge greed?
    Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own collective good... That doctrine right there does not acknowledge greed, it acts as if a whole society can act together for the greater good, but thats not how the realy world works, and can't pretend that greed does not exist.
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    polaris_x wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    He wants to get rid of the Federal Department of Education. True. The States have their own, and another level of it is not necessary. I agree with this move.

    Libertarianism is rooted in classical Liberalism, which sounds exactly like what you are talking about-- that their IS a responsibility to your fellow man in your dealings. Everyone has a role, and is free to choose that role, but bears the responsibility of doing that role honestly and without harm to anyone else, and assumes no right to anyone else's life or property. In this way, libertarians are just like socialists.

    However, we do not believe the state serves any real efficiency in making sure that society plays like a team outside of providing common defense, enforcing contracts between consenting parties by acting as a just third party, and protecting life, liberty, and property.

    Same goal, different implementation if you ask me.

    yeah ... i know the individual rights of the states are important to you guys however, i believe education should be mandated and regulated at the national level ... that is should be free or at least heavily subsidized ...

    as for the philosophies ... i think what it boils down to is what would work best in society ... knowing full well what most people would do without regulations, mainly corporations, i have no faith that this society would do what's best for all as opposed to just looking out for themselves ...


    i know the individual rights of the states are important to you guys however,

    This is the biggest piece for me. The beauty of the united states is that if you don't like where you live you should be able to make changes...either pick up and move to a state that more suits your lifestyle, or to try to make changes in the actual state with which you live. If Minnesota wanted to move to a socialist model we should be able to, but that doesn't mean that the people who live here have to stay here. If the state suddenly wanted to take 35% income tax from all its citizens and start paying for their healthcare, or food, or housing or whatever else, they should be able to do that as long as the rights guaranteed to every citizen weren't violated. I wish there really was more choice between states to be honest...personally I wouldn't choose to live somewhere socialism was in full effect, but I think there are plenty of people that would choose to live in a state that has those ideals. I wish we lived in a nation that allowed people to choose more. States have the rights of "police powers." I think a lot would be solved if people began to think this way instead of trying to get 300 million to agree. I don't know, hope that makes sense
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    HeidiJam wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Please expalin how...

    socialists place greater value on the wants and needs of the masses vs. the individual ... modern day socialism recognizes that given free reign and without restrictions - people would act strictly on their own self interests and that although the majority of people are not selfish or greedy ... the few that are would wreak a significant impact to those who are not ...

    socialists believe in government and the need to regulate things like health care and education and the environment ... given free reign - socialists do not believe that corporations will act in the best interests of society but for themselves ... so, if that means dumping toxic waste into a watershed - that is what a corporation will do ...

    care to explain why you think socialists do not acknowledge greed?
    Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own collective good... That doctrine right there does not acknowledge greed, it acts as if a whole society can act together for the greater good, but thats not how the realy world works, and can't pretend that greed does not exist.


    I think you may be mistaken on what socialism is and isn't. It isn't about devaluing the individual as much as you make it seem. I think the greed aspect is that people are naturally greedy as individuals and that the greed needs to be redirected to greed as a group...at least that is how I take it
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I think you may be mistaken on what socialism is and isn't. It isn't about devaluing the individual as much as you make it seem. I think the greed aspect is that people are naturally greedy as individuals and that the greed needs to be redirected to greed as a group...at least that is how I take it

    she copy and pasted from a quote from ayn rand who basically was against any collective ideology ... it's not really what socialism is ...
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I think you may be mistaken on what socialism is and isn't. It isn't about devaluing the individual as much as you make it seem. I think the greed aspect is that people are naturally greedy as individuals and that the greed needs to be redirected to greed as a group...at least that is how I take it

    she copy and pasted from a quote from ayn rand who basically was against any collective ideology ... it's not really what socialism is ...
    What is it then???
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    mikepegg44 wrote:


    I think you may be mistaken on what socialism is and isn't. It isn't about devaluing the individual as much as you make it seem. I think the greed aspect is that people are naturally greedy as individuals and that the greed needs to be redirected to greed as a group...at least that is how I take it
    Who determines who's greed is redirected?
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    HeidiJam wrote:
    mikepegg44 wrote:


    I think you may be mistaken on what socialism is and isn't. It isn't about devaluing the individual as much as you make it seem. I think the greed aspect is that people are naturally greedy as individuals and that the greed needs to be redirected to greed as a group...at least that is how I take it
    Who determines who's greed is redirected?


    in my understanding it would be very similar to how it is done in a democracy. People would elect government officials to make those decisions. It doesn't have to be authoritarian.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    HeidiJam wrote:
    What is it then???

    it is what you see in countries like norway and sweden ... people are free to exercise their individual choices so long as there is no detrement to society ... and that certain aspects of society such as health care, education and the environment are mandated and regulated by the government ... there is no slavery - this is not communism ... it is simply a philosophy that society would work much better working collectively rather than as individuals ...

    we over me
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    What is it then???

    it is what you see in countries like norway and sweden ... people are free to exercise their individual choices so long as there is no detrement to society ... and that certain aspects of society such as health care, education and the environment are mandated and regulated by the government ... there is no slavery - this is not communism ... it is simply a philosophy that society would work much better working collectively rather than as individuals ...

    we over me
    Norway population - 4,827,038
    Sweden Population - 9,302,123
    USA population - 307,006,550...
    Who deems whats detremental to society? You can't make everything equal/fair at the expense of other people, life does not work like that. Philosophy does not equal reality, ideally that would be a great society, but thats not real life.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Norway population - 4,827,038
    Sweden Population - 9,302,123
    USA population - 307,006,550...
    Who deems whats detremental to society? You can't make everything equal/fair at the expense of other people, life does not work like that. Philosophy does not equal reality, ideally that would be a great society, but thats not real life.

    i don't see how population has anything to do with it ... japan is over 125 million and they have a socialist background ...

    i think you are placing way too much emphasis on perceived restrictions of socialism rather than actuality ... if you look at the list of the top countries - what is it about those countries in terms of expense to other people do you find problematic?
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Norway population - 4,827,038
    Sweden Population - 9,302,123
    USA population - 307,006,550...
    Who deems whats detremental to society? You can't make everything equal/fair at the expense of other people, life does not work like that. Philosophy does not equal reality, ideally that would be a great society, but thats not real life.

    i don't see how population has anything to do with it ... japan is over 125 million and they have a socialist background ...

    i think you are placing way too much emphasis on perceived restrictions of socialism rather than actuality ... if you look at the list of the top countries - what is it about those countries in terms of expense to other people do you find problematic?
    I don't know enough about those countries to comment.

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