A Statement On Society Today

lukin2006

All someone had to do was call the police!!! Very sad!!!

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/922 ... death?bn=1

Woman’s cries ignored as she freezes to death

Curtis Rush Staff Reporter

Police are investigating how an ailing woman froze to death near her Scarborough home early Monday after police say her cries for help were ignored.

The 66-year-old woman suffered from dementia, and had little clothing to protect her on the coldest morning of the year when she wandered away from her home.

A newspaper delivery person found her lying face up near the intersection of Brimley Rd. and McNicoll Ave. in Scarborough around 5 a.m.

She had no vital signs when she was taken to hospital, where she was declared dead.

Police say there was nothing suspicious about her disappearance. However, at least two people told officers they heard a woman’s screams in the middle of the night but did not call 911.

“They didn’t call police because they said it was a dangerous area and they didn’t want to get involved,” Toronto police Sgt. David Dube told the Star.

“It’s sad because this could have been a totally different outcome,” Dube said, adding that people have an “obligation” to call police when people are in distress.

Police found dirt marks around a car door, leading them to believe the woman tried to get inside the vehicle. There were also indications she tried to open a screen door of a home.

The woman’s husband first noticed that she was not in bed at 2 a.m.

When she still had not returned to bed at 3 a.m., he began driving around the neighbourhood in search of her. When that failed, he contacted police at 4:44 a.m.

The woman was found after she had been outside for about three hours. Paramedics were unable to perform chest compressions because the body was frozen.

Her death came on Toronto’s coldest day of the year so far, with the overnight temperature plunging to -28C with the wind chill.

Police said an autopsy will be conducted, but it’s believed the cause of death is hypothermia.

Sidnum

So very sad.

And how fuckin' hard is it to call 911?! You're barely involved. Those people that heard her screaming should be held partially responsible. It's just ridiculous.

polaris_x

that's brutal ... it's that culture of silence ... :(

fife

This is very sad. I remember reading a story about 10 years ago about another homeless man in Toronto who was found dead while sleeping in a bus shelter. reports showed that the person was dead for over 2 weeks and no one person ever check on him. they said that his body was completely frozen. it was at time that the city of Toronto put more money into a program called Streets to Homes.

MotoDC

Very sad. Weird the husband waited an hour before starting to worry about where his wife with dementia might be.

lukin2006

Yeah...I thought the husbands overall actions were strange, waiting an hour before deciding to look and taking so long to call police. But I'm not in his shoes or situation, maybe she's done this before and always returned to bed. I'm more disturbed that people couldn't even call 911, no real involvement, just make the call. Having to live with knowing they did nothing, but could have done something to save her will be something they'll have to live with it.

MotoDC

lukin2006 wrote:

Yeah...I thought the husbands overall actions were strange, waiting an hour before deciding to look and taking so long to call police. But I'm not in his shoes or situation, maybe she's done this before and always returned to bed. I'm more disturbed that people couldn't even call 911, no real involvement, just make the call. Having to live with knowing they did nothing, but could have done something to save her will be something they'll have to live with it.

Good point, thought of that after I posted. Still strikes me as strange, but maybe she pops up out of bed on a regular basis, so it wouldn't raise any alarms for her husband.

How is the good samaritan law actually applied? Can the folks who didn't call 911 actually be charged with anything? I mean, if they didn't admit to hearing screams, how would you even "catch" someone breaking that law?

lukin2006

MotoDC wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Yeah...I thought the husbands overall actions were strange, waiting an hour before deciding to look and taking so long to call police. But I'm not in his shoes or situation, maybe she's done this before and always returned to bed. I'm more disturbed that people couldn't even call 911, no real involvement, just make the call. Having to live with knowing they did nothing, but could have done something to save her will be something they'll have to live with it.

Good point, thought of that after I posted. Still strikes me as strange, but maybe she pops up out of bed on a regular basis, so it wouldn't raise any alarms for her husband.

How is the good samaritan law actually applied? Can the folks who didn't call 911 actually be charged with anything? I mean, if they didn't admit to hearing screams, how would you even "catch" someone breaking that law?

To be honest, I did not know we had a good s samaritan law with regards to actually helping someone, but the police did say they could be held accountable.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

it's not strange at all that the husband "waited" an hour. It was the middle of the night. He probably thought she was in the bathroom or something, fell back asleep, woke up again an hour later and realized she was still gone.

I doubt he sat up awake hoping she'd return. It's not his fault, folks.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

let's be honest here: how many of you have heard a scream in the middle of the night and not done anything? I have. Most of the time it's stupid kids or someone fooling around. If I hear more than one, I'll check it out, but 99.9% of the time it's nothing.

People are scared to get involved these days. Yes, calling 911 seems like nothing, but fear itself is illogical in most cases.

MotoDC

Paul David wrote:

it's not strange at all that the husband "waited" an hour. It was the middle of the night. He probably thought she was in the bathroom or something, fell back asleep, woke up again an hour later and realized she was still gone.

I doubt he sat up awake hoping she'd return. It's not his fault, folks.

I dunno man, have you ever known anyone with dementia or alzheimers? To put it blithely, it's a pretty big deal.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

true. I wasn't thinking about that part of it.

MotoDC wrote:

Paul David wrote:

it's not strange at all that the husband "waited" an hour. It was the middle of the night. He probably thought she was in the bathroom or something, fell back asleep, woke up again an hour later and realized she was still gone.

I doubt he sat up awake hoping she'd return. It's not his fault, folks.

I dunno man, have you ever known anyone with dementia or alzheimers? To put it blithely, it's a pretty big deal.

lukin2006

Paul David wrote:

it's not strange at all that the husband "waited" an hour. It was the middle of the night. He probably thought she was in the bathroom or something, fell back asleep, woke up again an hour later and realized she was still gone.

I doubt he sat up awake hoping she'd return. It's not his fault, folks.

Well it is strange to a degree, considering you're always hearing about people with dementia wandering away. I know if that was my spouse I would have checked up on them once I realized that were not there, and if I could not locate them in the house I would have called the police immediately, that it was they are here for...to serve and protect. However as I said earlier I am not going to judge the husbands actions, other than finding it strange, I just know what I would have done.

lukin2006

MotoDC wrote:

Paul David wrote:

it's not strange at all that the husband "waited" an hour. It was the middle of the night. He probably thought she was in the bathroom or something, fell back asleep, woke up again an hour later and realized she was still gone.

I doubt he sat up awake hoping she'd return. It's not his fault, folks.

I dunno man, have you ever known anyone with dementia or alzheimers? To put it blithely, it's a pretty big deal.

The call would have taken less than a minute. If it's just kids then the police would have sorted it out, better to be safe than sorry. You're right people don't want to get involved, but a 911 call is just a phone call, not what I would call getting involved.

BH304897

Actually there is an interesting chapter in the book Superfreakanomics about this same situation, actually it was a bit worse the woman was stabbed to death in nyc and no one helped. It's interesting to say the least. One of the big factors was that since the woman was screaming most of the people who heard assumed others had already called 911. As with most cases it's easy to assume that you would call 911, but really until the situation occurs who knows? Also the news media tends to embellish anything they think would make a good story. Still it is sad

pjhawks

Paul David wrote:

let's be honest here: how many of you have heard a scream in the middle of the night and not done anything? I have. Most of the time it's stupid kids or someone fooling around. If I hear more than one, I'll check it out, but 99.9% of the time it's nothing.

People are scared to get involved these days. Yes, calling 911 seems like nothing, but fear itself is illogical in most cases.

i saw a story about this on one of those tv shows, 48 hours or something, and basically they said people are more likely to call or do something when they think they are the only ones around. in a area more populated most people's general thought process, either intentional or unintentional, is that someone else will take care of it and it's not necessarily a lack of caring. it was pretty interesting.

Jeanwah

pjhawks wrote:

i saw a story about this on one of those tv shows, 48 hours or something, and basically they said people are more likely to call or do something when they think they are the only ones around. in a area more populated most people's general thought process, either intentional or unintentional, is that someone else will take care of it and it's not necessarily a lack of caring. it was pretty interesting.

Yeah, it's crowd psychology. And it IS interesting once you think about it, the difference in how people behave when there are other people around, versus being alone.

BinauralJam

Jeanwah wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

i saw a story about this on one of those tv shows, 48 hours or something, and basically they said people are more likely to call or do something when they think they are the only ones around. in a area more populated most people's general thought process, either intentional or unintentional, is that someone else will take care of it and it's not necessarily a lack of caring. it was pretty interesting.

Yeah, it's crowd psychology. And it IS interesting once you think about it, the difference in how people behave when there are other people around, versus being alone.

My friend was on a crowded train platform one evening, across the way was a guy beating the shit out of his women, my friend looked around, nobody said or did anything, most people averted there eye's, finally he said screw it and went to the other side, he jumped in between the guy and girl and started tellin the guy what he thought of him when the girl attacked him from behind, next thing you know he was fighting both of them, luckily my buddies a pretty tough guy and handled both of them until the police finally arrived. He told me he would never get involved again. But if he hadn't done anything, ya wonder if that guy would have beaten the women to death with all those people just watching.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

yeah, didn't that story have something to do with people beating their kids or something in public? people just looked the other way? it was quite startling, but I've witnessed that firsthand myself.

pjhawks wrote:

Paul David wrote:

let's be honest here: how many of you have heard a scream in the middle of the night and not done anything? I have. Most of the time it's stupid kids or someone fooling around. If I hear more than one, I'll check it out, but 99.9% of the time it's nothing.

People are scared to get involved these days. Yes, calling 911 seems like nothing, but fear itself is illogical in most cases.

i saw a story about this on one of those tv shows, 48 hours or something, and basically they said people are more likely to call or do something when they think they are the only ones around. in a area more populated most people's general thought process, either intentional or unintentional, is that someone else will take care of it and it's not necessarily a lack of caring. it was pretty interesting.

haffajappa

It really bugs me when idiot kids scream and shreik in the middle of the night.
There was another case in Victoria where a girl was killed and then her remains burned in a creek/path behind several houses. There were a few people who said they heard screams that night but just assumed it was another group of teenagers being idiots.

haffajappa

Jeanwah wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

i saw a story about this on one of those tv shows, 48 hours or something, and basically they said people are more likely to call or do something when they think they are the only ones around. in a area more populated most people's general thought process, either intentional or unintentional, is that someone else will take care of it and it's not necessarily a lack of caring. it was pretty interesting.

Yeah, it's crowd psychology. And it IS interesting once you think about it, the difference in how people behave when there are other people around, versus being alone.

I took a first aid course last summer which was taught by a retired firefighter.
He was talking about the whole crowd mentality.

He said once they received a call about a burning apartment building and when they got there some 30 or 40 people were standing outside. When they showed up all the people began yelling at them and asking them why it had taken over an hour for them to arrive... To which one of the firefighters asked, well who called 911? Not ONE of the people had called 911!!!! In fact the call had come in from someone blocks away who saw the smoke!!!

Cosmo

Paul David wrote:

let's be honest here: how many of you have heard a scream in the middle of the night and not done anything? I have. Most of the time it's stupid kids or someone fooling around. If I hear more than one, I'll check it out, but 99.9% of the time it's nothing.

People are scared to get involved these days. Yes, calling 911 seems like nothing, but fear itself is illogical in most cases.

...
I guess... it depends.
I mean, I'm pretty sure if you heard cries for 'Help', you'd at least, look out your window or go outside to investigate. I guess it depends on the types of screams you hear... kids, screwing around or a blood curdling scream of terror. I've never heard the latter... but, I pretty sure we'd be able to tell the difference.

stardust1976

This is a really sad story. My Grandma has dementia, and I'd be devastated if that happened to her. I also can't imagine my Gramps waiting an hour if he got up and realised she was gone. Having said that though - he would call family - his sons live very close by, and he would call one of them before the police - it would most likely be one of my uncles that called the police. The thought from my Gramp's side being no doubt, that he didn't want to be a bother. A lot of older people think like that. What if that guy had no one else to call, and waited because he DID think he just didn't want to be a bother, because she'd most likely be back? That's really sad, but you can't blame him. Dementia is a sad sad illness - my Grandma was walking around the house the other day looking for the kids - the youngest of her kids is now close to 50. But she was adament she'd sent them out the back to play and then couldn't find them. She also couldn't find her clothes, the very same day. It's very very sad to see someone you love reduced to this, and makes this story so much sadder to read. :(

Hugh Freaking Dillon

yes, if it was "help", I obviously wouldn't wait for a second cry, but just screaming with no words, I live in a very "party-oriented neighbourhood", so screams aren't abnormal.

Cosmo wrote:

Paul David wrote:

let's be honest here: how many of you have heard a scream in the middle of the night and not done anything? I have. Most of the time it's stupid kids or someone fooling around. If I hear more than one, I'll check it out, but 99.9% of the time it's nothing.

People are scared to get involved these days. Yes, calling 911 seems like nothing, but fear itself is illogical in most cases.

...
I guess... it depends.
I mean, I'm pretty sure if you heard cries for 'Help', you'd at least, look out your window or go outside to investigate. I guess it depends on the types of screams you hear... kids, screwing around or a blood curdling scream of terror. I've never heard the latter... but, I pretty sure we'd be able to tell the difference.

know1

So it's a statement on Canadian society since it happened in Toronto, right?