Racism is wrong.... most of the time

fuck

I'm not one to waste time bitching about someone because I don't like to give that person the satisfaction that he/she actually caused me to pay such attention to something. But throughout this post I intend to speak generally in most cases and draw on examples from this forum. It seems that people in general often have a hard time of deciding what is "opinion" and what is outright racism. I don't know why. It really is quite simple. The issue is that when it comes to certain issues like criticism of Israel, people throw around unjust accusations of anti-Semitism. The same is the truth of the opposite. Praise of Israel BY anti-Semites is fine and their anti-Semitism is ignored. In fact, there was once a famous article with PM Netanyahu told his cabinet to ignore anti-Semitism in Egypt due to President Mubarak's cooperation with the Zionist regime. If that article were not only written in Arabic and due to it predictably not being translated into English, I would post it for you. Anyway, in order to maintain consistency, people need to look through their bias. Now you might ask, how, o great Outlaw, do we do that? It's quite simple. For example take a look at the obviously racist and disgusting display of intolerance below:

[The Palestinians are a p]athetic civilization, [with] thousands of years of underachievement.

Can you imagine if this post had referred to Jewish civilization? What if this post had referred to Black people? Can you imagine the outrage? It would be just as disgusting but the reaction triggered on here would likely be far more outraged and I'm sure the poster would be banned. Kat would probably add another nice and convenient sticky on the top of the page referring to this. But because it is referred to the Palestinian civilization, it is ignored. In this case, bias, if even unintentionally, comes into play and shields one from seeing the utter racism spewed in this statement. I mean, I reported this post to the mods, either they were having a great fucking Christmas break or, more likely, they ignored it. Great job guys.

This is, again, not an attempt to try to bitch about one post and this is the last time I'm going to mention it because if you haven't gotten this point by now then I ask that you stop reading because obviously my simple points in this post will go far above your head. Another example of bias transcending people's ability to detect racism or intolerance is the Muhammad cartoons. People will go to every inch of the earth to defend a cartoonist's freedom to draw such a cartoon, but if you dare condemn the cartoonist then you are labeled a hater of freedom. Again, you have to maintain consistency. Let's substitute more examples; can you imagine the outrage if someone drew an anti-Semitic cartoon in a major paper? That person would be condemned, and rightly so, and no media outlet would give him/her the time of day. I mean, a cartoon, for example, with the Prophet drawn wearing a hat made of a bomb over his head is quite Islamophobic and nothing but. If someone drew a cartoon that was racist toward black people, everyone would denounce it. In these examples, it is VERY clear that the person is not being denounced because we want to limit his freedom. Indeed, the issue of freedom is never brought up because it is understood that it is about sensitivity issues and that in this day and age our freedom is not so much under attack from being able to draw cartoons like these, but we don't want hate and intolerance around because it goes against our moral values. So why should we ever try to offend a people, in this case 1.5 billion people in the world? Go ahead and condemn the people who react violently to the cartoon and I'll be right there with you but I also want to make a slight point here:
It is important to note that leading up to the Nazi Holocaust when anti-Semitism was at its height in Europe, cartoons depicting Jews violently or as evil was very prevalent. When Muslims are watching their countries being bombed and their people massacred, these reactions are not simple reactions to some stupid cartoons, it's to the perceived threat on THEIR freedoms -- in that they are not only being attacked at home but even in Western countries they are being made to look evil and are being offended and insulted, whether by cartoons, burqa bans, or whatever else. I could go on and on about this point but I'm gonna try to keep this shorter. Things are simple, really. The problem is people simplify them by their own terms. Try to put things in perspective. I mean, even when it came to the Qur'an burning. People love to mention how the president and the pope and everyone in the world called this douchebag in Florida and asked him not to do it. But if you remember, they didn't ask him not to do it because it would offend Muslims, they asked him not to do it because they're scared more crazy Muslims will become terrorists. Of course, all this ignoring the fact that the number one factor in contributing to terrorism is our bombs and support for Muslim dictators who oppress their people, but that's besides the point.

I think I've made my point and this post is long enough so I'll end it here. I've generally begun to avoid posting on this forum, and each time I return and read some of the posts here, I'm remembered why.

BinauralJam

So your pissed at the Mods? somebody stated an opinion, get pissed at them if you disagree.

CAVSTARR313

BinauralJam wrote:

So your pissed at the Mods? somebody stated an opinion, get pissed at them if you disagree.

You actually sat and read all that?? sweet jesus!!

acrossssSsssshittt

___________ wrote:

I've generally begun to avoid posting on this forum, and each time I return and read some of the posts here, I'm remembered why.

so have I... and then I too remember why.... but you've said it all very well.... very fucking well... don't think I could've said it any better...

all I would say is fuck this shit... but this needed to be said

peace

Shawshank

This person is as crazy as anyone else on here with their rambling rant. So someone made a generalized stupid statement about a group of people. It's done all the time on here, just start up a thread about Christianity and see the insults fly. It's life....it sucks....get a fucking helmet. :roll: The unfortunate reality is, over time there have been offensive cartoons of Blacks, Jews, Asians, Indians, Spanish, Europeans, Americans, Jesus, God, Santa and everyone in between.

Byrnzie

___________ wrote:

I'm not one to waste time bitching about someone because I don't like to give that person the satisfaction that he/she actually caused me to pay such attention to something. But throughout this post I intend to speak generally in most cases and draw on examples from this forum. It seems that people in general often have a hard time of deciding what is "opinion" and what is outright racism. I don't know why. It really is quite simple. The issue is that when it comes to certain issues like criticism of Israel, people throw around unjust accusations of anti-Semitism. The same is the truth of the opposite. Praise of Israel BY anti-Semites is fine and their anti-Semitism is ignored. In fact, there was once a famous article with PM Netanyahu told his cabinet to ignore anti-Semitism in Egypt due to President Mubarak's cooperation with the Zionist regime. If that article were not only written in Arabic and due to it predictably not being translated into English, I would post it for you. Anyway, in order to maintain consistency, people need to look through their bias. Now you might ask, how, o great Outlaw, do we do that? It's quite simple. For example take a look at the obviously racist and disgusting display of intolerance below:

[The Palestinians are a p]athetic civilization, [with] thousands of years of underachievement.

Can you imagine if this post had referred to Jewish civilization? What if this post had referred to Black people? Can you imagine the outrage? It would be just as disgusting but the reaction triggered on here would likely be far more outraged and I'm sure the poster would be banned. Kat would probably add another nice and convenient sticky on the top of the page referring to this. But because it is referred to the Palestinian civilization, it is ignored. In this case, bias, if even unintentionally, comes into play and shields one from seeing the utter racism spewed in this statement. I mean, I reported this post to the mods, either they were having a great fucking Christmas break or, more likely, they ignored it. Great job guys.

This is, again, not an attempt to try to bitch about one post and this is the last time I'm going to mention it because if you haven't gotten this point by now then I ask that you stop reading because obviously my simple points in this post will go far above your head. Another example of bias transcending people's ability to detect racism or intolerance is the Muhammad cartoons. People will go to every inch of the earth to defend a cartoonist's freedom to draw such a cartoon, but if you dare condemn the cartoonist then you are labeled a hater of freedom. Again, you have to maintain consistency. Let's substitute more examples; can you imagine the outrage if someone drew an anti-Semitic cartoon in a major paper? That person would be condemned, and rightly so, and no media outlet would give him/her the time of day. I mean, a cartoon, for example, with the Prophet drawn wearing a hat made of a bomb over his head is quite Islamophobic and nothing but. If someone drew a cartoon that was racist toward black people, everyone would denounce it. In these examples, it is VERY clear that the person is not being denounced because we want to limit his freedom. Indeed, the issue of freedom is never brought up because it is understood that it is about sensitivity issues and that in this day and age our freedom is not so much under attack from being able to draw cartoons like these, but we don't want hate and intolerance around because it goes against our moral values. So why should we ever try to offend a people, in this case 1.5 billion people in the world? Go ahead and condemn the people who react violently to the cartoon and I'll be right there with you but I also want to make a slight point here:
It is important to note that leading up to the Nazi Holocaust when anti-Semitism was at its height in Europe, cartoons depicting Jews violently or as evil was very prevalent. When Muslims are watching their countries being bombed and their people massacred, these reactions are not simple reactions to some stupid cartoons, it's to the perceived threat on THEIR freedoms -- in that they are not only being attacked at home but even in Western countries they are being made to look evil and are being offended and insulted, whether by cartoons, burqa bans, or whatever else. I could go on and on about this point but I'm gonna try to keep this shorter. Things are simple, really. The problem is people simplify them by their own terms. Try to put things in perspective. I mean, even when it came to the Qur'an burning. People love to mention how the president and the pope and everyone in the world called this douchebag in Florida and asked him not to do it. But if you remember, they didn't ask him not to do it because it would offend Muslims, they asked him not to do it because they're scared more crazy Muslims will become terrorists. Of course, all this ignoring the fact that the number one factor in contributing to terrorism is our bombs and support for Muslim dictators who oppress their people, but that's besides the point.

I think I've made my point and this post is long enough so I'll end it here. I've generally begun to avoid posting on this forum, and each time I return and read some of the posts here, I'm remembered why.

Good post.
I agree, the double standards are there for all to see.
And there's a difference between criticizing a religion - Christianity or any other - and hurling racist abuse at/about a whole people.

Best of Times wrote:

...shitholes like Iran, Saudi, Yemen, and that future paking lot you call "Palestine"...

Best of Times wrote:

the Palestinian people...their helpless crazy asses

Best of Times wrote:

"Palestine"...that barren shithole of a rock

Best of Times wrote:

Pathetic civilization, thousands of years of underachievement.

Best of Times wrote:

"Palestine" is a perpetual welfare state.

Godfather.

Another shinning example of why world peace will be so hard to achieve, maybe I misunderstood your post but the real problem is the human element (all of us)...well most of us.
"different than me" is the issue ,
AcrossOceans you are a very cool person,we could all learn a little about life from you my friend.
We should all pay attention.

Godfather.

acrossssSsssshittt

Godfather. wrote:

Another shinning example of why world peace will be so hard to achieve, maybe I misunderstood your post but the real problem is the human element (all of us)...well most of us.
"different than me" is the issue ,
AcrossOceans you are a very cool person,we could all learn a little about life from you my friend.
We should all pay attention.

Godfather.

yes... i believe we all ... are the problem... this world was probably not the shithole it now is... not until man stepped in ... there is beauty around us.... i think to myself there is good in us... but maybe not enough... sad.

i gotta lot to learn myself Godfather, for if I were to die today I'd die a fuckin fool ...

... but we'll always have words eh : )

Boxes&Books

Excellent post....

I'm sick of this board... Especially sick of those who fake Christians on this board.... those are the people that really make me sick.

Happy News Years everyone.....

Godfather.

tonifig8 wrote:

Excellent post....

I'm sick of this board... Especially sick of those who fake Christians on this board.... those are the people that really make me sick.

Happy News Years everyone.....

you may leave
happy new year g

Godfather.

Commy

why do we need mods to do what we can do for ourselves?



its called freedom.

kenny olav

The main problem I have with the original post from the male person (couldn't possibly be female - too brash) who won't give his name, is the equal footing given to anti-Semitism and "Islamophobia" - they are completely different, and I won't point out the reasons, because they should be obvious. Why refer to Mohammed as "the Prophet"? He's no more a prophet than Joseph Smith or any other of the so-called prophets in the Bible. Why give any credence or even respect to that very notion of religious prophecy, which is holding back all of humanity. We should be openly mocking the idea of Mohammed as prophet without fear of retribution, and boldly assert logical arguments against all religionists, especially when they are violently intolerant of criticism. I don't care if they are offended because they have no reason to be, but I have every reason to be offended when they go against all that is natural, logical and good. You will find many thoughtful people who grew up in Muslim-dominated countries who will say that Islam is holding their country back, but unlike in the largely liberalized Christian (and increasingly post-Christian) countries, they will be ostracized if the profess even the slightest hint of apostasy... or worse. If the world became dominated by Islam, that would be a terrible thing. Islam is probably the most dangerous of all the major religions, but that's not to say we should overlook the modern crusaders and the zionists. They all should be made to feel guilty for believing in the very concept of holy land... as it has brought nothing but war and hardened hearts. It's time to move past this... way past this... there is no reason that Jews and Arabs can't look upon the monuments of Jerusalem the way the Greeks look upon the Parthenon. And there are in fact many Jews, Arabs, and people of all ethnic backgrounds who want to look to a future based on logic and understanding, but that's not what rules the world as of yet.

kenny olav

Wow... did I really type all that last night? The shit I do when I'm coming down from being drunk and high on NYE... sorry for the preachyness of it.




To make sure this is clear... though I don't have any respect for old baseless beliefs systems, I really do my best to respect people no matter what they believe in. If people hate people just people they hold a belief, that's wrong, but they shouldn't feel like they have to pander to them. I think it's perfectly logical to fear a religion that becomes political, and Islam has always been political. Europe should stand up for the way of the life that they've achieved in the aftermath of their own superstitious tyranny and warfare. They should absolutely ban the wearing of burqas and things of that nature.

kenny olav

Whether or not anyone wants challenge me on any of this, I can't stop my train of thought...


I was watching a forum on C-Span not too long ago, it was put on by a group I believe was called "Americans Against Hate", and the group of speakers that were invited to this particular forum were passionately defending Israel - many denied the right of the Palestinians to ANY of the land there. Apparently, the same group had CAIR - the Council for American Islamic Relations speak at a different forum, so it's interesting to note the balance (though I'd really love to see the two groups debate at the same forum).

OK, so the speakers were mostly Jewish, but there were a few Christians in a there too. It took place in Ft. Lauderdale early in December 2010. Except for the one guy who was severely flipped out, they were thoughtful, calm speakers... nice people that you'd like to have dinner with.... and I've found over the years that no matter how baseless or insane a person's religious belief can be, it doesn't necessarily make the person unintelligent or insane. I grew up in an Evangelical church full of loonies - nice people, but I never understood them. So in a sense, I'm used to it. But it still bothers me that people can base their lives on something so obviously false.

I should say that I do think there is a spiritual component to reality... I'm not a super-atheist... but the Bible is clearly loaded with bullshit.

Many of the speakers at this forum claimed that because God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants, that therefore, it's belongs to the Jewish people. But... there was no God who promised any land to anyone. It was dreamed up. It never happened. Just as Mohammed never ascended to heaven from Jerusalem. And the land of Israel, according to one speaker, stretches from Egypt to Mesopotamia. So when Jordan was given to the Arabs, 78% percent of Israel was taken from the Jews, according to her.... well, according to the Torah... but if you're going to give credence to that part of the Torah, then you have to give credence to the rest of it... but who does that?? No one! Only maybe the most ultra-orthodox, and they can't agree on everything either.

What the fuck?!? How can there ever be any end to this madness?

The final speaker was the new Congressman-elect from that part of Florida.. can't recall his name, but I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of him in the media.... I could google him but that will derail my train of thought.... he was a Republican, black, a military man who achieved some significant rank, and a Christian who grew up in Georgia. He gave a flawlessly executed and beautiful speech. If I had been raised to never think critically about any of this (actually, I was), I would totally have bought it. So this really pisses me off, hahaha... we have people who held up as exemplary in our society defending totally illogical ancient fairy tales!!! With supreme verbal force! And they were all damn good speakers... of course they had a British guy in their too. How can you ever win against the sophists? If it sounds good, it must be true.... I don't even think anyone at the forum was lying, they were just so caught up in their feel good story. Except they all looked miserable, hahahaha. All I can do is laugh, because the human race has been fucked up forever!!! But why can I see beyond all this? I'm not really that smart... I just never understood religion, because it simply make no sense. Why is this so hard for people to get?

he still stands

and that is EXACTLY why there is no solution to this problem >>> belief. Peoples' lives have been tributed to these crazy beliefs and if you challenge them on it, some of them will kill you. Literally. The human mind is capable of thinking in degrees of probability instead of this silly "belief" thing but we're handed down these beliefs from previous generations. Until that ends, there will be people who kill others because they disagree with a silly belief.

Belief is the birth of ignorance.

That's why I'm a model agnostic. Even atheism is a belief system because you believe there cannot possibly be a god. I am not so presumptious to think us talking monkeys could ever know or understand the answers to the universe, and if everyone would just think in degrees of probability (like me ) this world would suddenly go incredibly sane.

fuck

I've avoided responding to your post, kenny olav, but given your insistence with post after post it seems like you really want some attention. Thats perfectly fine. The issue is that your posts just have so many factual flaws and inaccuracies that it really would not suit one to simply respond with a short counterpoint. you see, one of your biggest issues is that you make claims and don't back them up, not only because you dont know how to but because you can't - they are flawed claims and arguments to begin with. So in order to respond in a correct manner, facts and examples are necessary. This post took about half an hour to write and it's fairly long. I don't expect anyone to have the patience to read it also because I think most people are going to read this with an inherent and initial bias and thus not be willing to continue to its end. But I wouldnt forgive myself if I responded poorly. Disregard anything you may perceive as an insult on your personal character, I merely refer to your arguments and your points:

The main problem I have with the original post from the male person (couldn't possibly be female - too brash) who won't give his name, is the equal footing given to anti-Semitism and "Islamophobia" - they are completely different, and I won't point out the reasons, because they should be obvious.

1. why is Islamophobia written in quotes and anti-Semitism isn't? Is one real and one illusory? Congratulations, you couldn't go one sentence without displaying your deep-seeded bias from the start. And by bias, I do not refer simply to favoring one argument over another--everyone does that. I mean genuinely ignoring concrete facts to suit your own beliefs and purposes.
2. how is one form of racism and intolerance toward Jews principally any different from racism and intolerance toward Muslims? If you know any history actually, you'd know that Islamophobia is not a new phenomenon in any way. If not for the fact that a much stronger Muslim presence has only recently become so in Europe, they could have faced the same persecution as the Jews faced in the late-19th through mid-20th century, similar to that of the Inquisition. If you are arguing in terms of actual action taken against Jews versus actual action taken against Muslims, as in trying to allure to the suffering of the JEws during the Nazi Holocaust and how no one ever had to go through that and blah blah blah, that's a sound argument, but in terms of principle, Islamophobia is just as reprehensible as anti-Semitism.

Why refer to Mohammed as "the Prophet"? He's no more a prophet than Joseph Smith or any other of the so-called prophets in the Bible.

Well that's your opinion but there are 1.5 billion people in the world who would argue otherwise. You have the right to disagree with their opinion and think they are wrong but I see no issue in referring to Muhammad as the Prophet, also due to the fact that I'm Muslim.

Why give any credence or even respect to that very notion of religious prophecy, which is holding back all of humanity. We should be openly mocking the idea of Mohammed as prophet without fear of retribution, and boldly assert logical arguments against all religionists, especially when they are violently intolerant of criticism.

Holding back all of humanity? Is kenny olav humanity's great savior, come to tell us all what is actually holding us back? How is religion holding back humanity? Do you even understand what it means to make a statement like that? Has defending bold and general statements with facts all of a sudden become irrelevant? Especially with regards to religion unfortunately.
The only thing this statement really shows is your profound lack of historical knowledge. I mean, tell me, is Algebra and Calculus holding back humanity? Chemistry? Philosophy? Astronomy? Literature? Medical Sciences? All these subjects have a history dating back to the 'Islamic Golden Age': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age. In fact, many secular theorists often cite an Islamic philosopher, Ibn Rushd, as a big influence. An Islamic philosopher, who is religious, influenced secularism? but how can that be!
All of this is just so strange. How is it that in an Islamic empire, a RELIGIOUS one, advancements can be made??? I mean, I learned once when I went to church that church is boring as shit, and I believe in only things that are POSSIBLE (and by possible, I mean made to be possible by my terms). So when you add up the special scientific equation of church is boring + my priest was a moron + miracles are scientifically impossible = religion sucks. is that right? why let a thing like history get in the way?
Of course, I expect your obvious retort: but more wars are fought over religion than anything else!!
Again, this would be false and any historical analysis would retort this. when it comes to most wars that involve different religions, deep understanding of the issue is still necessary since they do not end up that way many of the times. People's most recent examples often tend to be things like Islamic terrorists, e.g. suicide bombers. I'd recommend reading Robert Pape's Dying to Win. His book analyzes suicide bombers and their motives and he's found that they are not doing this for religious motives but most often out of living in occupation.
You may cite the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Again, incorrect. Zionist movement began secular and has remained so for decades, mostly up until now even. it was only very recently that the Zionists with more hardcore religious beliefs gained popularity. Same thing with the Palestinian resistance, but both movements are essentially secular.
While religious people, like any else, have done some ridiculously horrendous things and taken advantage of people's deeply held religious beliefs, it is illogical to say religion holds back humanity, especially without having first studied the religions carefully and comprehensively. and by study religion I don't just mean read a book on it. I mean read their holy books, study their history, art, poetry, scientific advancements, culture, literature, etc. If you don't have time to do it then that's perfectly fine, we don't all have the ability to specialize in everything. But then I believe I'm perfectly in my right to ask you to please shut the fuck up (not that you have to, you have the freedom to say as many things as you want, no matter how utterly wrong they are .)
Additionally, this is just a last minor point, but over the past couple hundred years or so when secularism has become the preferred rule, we've had some of the worst historical injustices recorded in human history; from the Nazi Holocaust, to the Darfur Genocide, Rwandan Genocide, millions of Iraqis killed due to our policies and bombs, etc. And these were not over religion. So, what is it the common theme? Ruthless rulers taking advantage of anything they can, be it ethnicity, nationalism/fascism, communism, OR religion. or is it just that religion is to blame for everything? I guess that's a bit easier to do if you have a particular motive.

I don't care if they are offended because they have no reason to be, but I have every reason to be offended when they go against all that is natural, logical and good.

There's a good outlook. No one has the right to be offended except you.

You will find many thoughtful people who grew up in Muslim-dominated countries who will say that Islam is holding their country back, but unlike in the largely liberalized Christian (and increasingly post-Christian) countries, they will be ostracized if the profess even the slightest hint of apostasy... or worse.

Some black slaves fought alongside the Confederates during the U.S. Civil War hoping to return to working as slaves once the war ends. What's your point? Why not refer to some actual statistics. Wait, probably because it goes against your argument. Allow me then.

John Esposito, 'Who Speaks for Islam?' :
"Within the last several years, religious parties in the Arab world have decisively defeated their secular opponents, as Islamist candidates have proved successful at the polls. In Iraq's general elections in late 2005, the religious Shiite alliance won 128 of 275 seats. In the Palestinian territories' first elections in a decade, Hamas overwhelmingly defeated the secular ruling party, Fatah. In Egypt, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood won an unprecedented fifth of the parliament's seats. In Turkey, the Justice and Development Party (AKP) won a landslide victory in the November 2002 parliamentary elections, something of a rarity in the secular republic. ....
...while acknowledging and admiring many aspects of Western democracy, those surveyed do not favor a wholesale adoption of Western models of democracy. Many appear to want their own democratic model that incorporates Shari`ah--and not one that is simply dependent on Western values...the emphasis those in substantially Muslim countries give to a new model of government, one that is democratic yet embraces religious values, helps to explain why majorities in most countries, with the exception of a handful of nations, want Shari`ah as atleast "a" source of legislation."

If the world became dominated by Islam, that would be a terrible thing. Islam is probably the most dangerous of all the major religions, but that's not to say we should overlook the modern crusaders and the zionists.

Islam is the most dangerous of all? What the fuck kinda sentence is this? Any explanation? Based on everything you've written so far you obviously have no knowledge whatsoever of the religion, other than probably the amount of info you get from watching the daily news. I mean, on what actual basis do you make this claim on? For example, let's think about Judaism. There are about 13 million or so Jews worldwide. About 5.5 million or so in Israel. Israel has committed crimes against humanity in the name of protecting the Jewish State, no matter what side of the conflict you're on, fact or fiction, this is true. Since a big percentage of Jews support Israel and have contributed to this, does that mean that Judaism is more of a dangerous religion, since over 50% of its people actively contribute in or to Israeli society? Of course, I don't agree with this because I think it's just as flawed as any of your analogies and I would never dare make such ridiculous claims as you do without having first backed it up completely with facts. After seeing your post though, I can tell that you just don't know facts to begin with.

They all should be made to feel guilty for believing in the very concept of holy land... as it has brought nothing but war and hardened hearts. It's time to move past this... way past this... there is no reason that Jews and Arabs can't look upon the monuments of Jerusalem the way the Greeks look upon the Parthenon.

what about the concept of nationalism? It's a secular concept, and has been responsible for war and genocide. In fact, in many ways, it is responsible for more war and genocide than this small strip of the holy land, so what do you have to say about that? why is religion the ideology that is holding back our world and not rather our own pathetic ambitions and intolerance?

And there are in fact many Jews, Arabs, and people of all ethnic backgrounds who want to look to a future based on logic and understanding, but that's not what rules the world as of yet.

religion does not have to be counter to logic and understanding, and you're talking out of your ass. you preach the same intolerance you speak out against; inconsistency is a key factor is contributing to misunderstanding of either side and continued conflict.

To make sure this is clear... though I don't have any respect for old baseless beliefs systems, I really do my best to respect people no matter what they believe in. If people hate people just people they hold a belief, that's wrong, but they shouldn't feel like they have to pander to them. I think it's perfectly logical to fear a religion that becomes political, and Islam has always been political.

I'm not convinced that you know a thing about Islam or 'political' Islam. I mean just the fact that you say that Islam has always been political without citing anything is proof of it. What of the hundreds of millions of Muslims who have normal jobs and live normal, apolitical lives? Are they just not religious? Are they bad Muslims? What of them? Or should we conveniently ignore them to suit the purpose of our argument. And no one is asking that people pander to others' beliefs, they are asked to respect them. Being Muslim is just as strong an identity to Muslims as their ethnicity, race, etc. If we are asked to respect people's nationalities, ethnicities, race, and any other identity, we should respect their religious identity as well. And if one person uses their identity to further a cause in that person's beliefs, we are always respectful of it so long as it does not hurt anyone else.

Europe should stand up for the way of the life that they've achieved in the aftermath of their own superstitious tyranny and warfare. They should absolutely ban the wearing of burqas and things of that nature.

are you trying to argue that superstitious tyranny and warfare ended when secularism was introduced into Europe? So you don't think the targeting of Jews was based on any superstition? Was it based on fact then? and what special way of life has Europe achieved? Europe has a shit load of problems now, just as it did back then. Banning burqa or anything else is just stupid. It does not make a free society, it makes one that imposes secularism, which is a belief just as strong as any religious or philosophical or nationalist or whatever belief, which is wrong. If you don't think religion should mix with politics, fine. But to argue that religious people have no right to display their religious beliefs in public, be it through wearing a burqa, praying freely outside in the street, or building a mosque with minarets is just as intolerant as any religious society forcing people to conform to their religious beliefs and norms. And it's as simple as that. A free society means actual freedom, not imposed freedom on your own terms.

As for your last, long post, I only have this to say: I was never of the opinion that the response to Zionism should be religious whatsoever, I think it should strictly be secular and on moral grounds. No religion should have superior claim over the holy land. That being said, it's relevance and importance to any religion should not be disregarded on the basis of anyone else's own beliefs. I believe the response to Zionism should be on the grounds of wanting equal justice for all people and human rights for all. But we should not delude ourselves into thinking that people will simply relinquish any religious significance of the land. If anyone believes that the land should be theirs only, they should be ignored and isolated. But if others believe that the land should be free for all and that both Palestinians and Israelis deserve equal rights, then that is a sound argument and thus a religious debate is unnecessary in this issue.

BinauralJam

:idea: oh i think i know who you are now

Pepe Silvia

BinauralJam wrote:

:idea: oh i think i know who you are now

he said who he was in the very first paragraph of his op....i guess you and kenny must have skipped through it?

Best of Times

Why is it racist to say the Palestinian people are a civilization of underachievers?

What have they achieved?

Africa doesn't have a space program, does acknowledging that make me a racist?

You libs are only interested in political correctness; not TRUTH.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS KILLED 13 AT FORT HOOD.

BinauralJam

Pepe Silvia wrote:

BinauralJam wrote:

:idea: oh i think i know who you are now

he said who he was in the very first paragraph of his op....i guess you and kenny must have skipped through it?

what are you seeing that i'm not?

Best of Times

To: _____________________________

Saying that I couldn't be a female b/c I'm "too brash", is SEXIST, you chauvinist pig.