US rejects UN call to abolish death penalty
gimmesometruth27
St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
since the other thread has become such a trainwreck of subjective opinion, personal attacks, judgements, and graphic poetry i am posting this here, because no doubt it would get lost in the pile of hyperbole of the other thread.
i would expect that we keep on the topic of the us thumbing their nose at the international community yet again. why do we always have to be different? why do we never take into consideration the views of other nations? why do we never reconsider our position on any issue and god forbid admit that we might be wrong about something?
this thread is not a debate on the merit of the death penalty, it is not designed to be for or against it, is not for fingerpointing at each other, and is not for trying to justify your position based on your opinions. rather it is a frank and honest discussion and examination about why the united states, the supposed beacon of freedom and liberty in the world, feels the need to hang on to the antiquated notion that the death penalty is warranted in this day and age, and it is to discuss why we feel we need to act against the wishes of other nations in nearly all cases....
US rejects UN call to abolish death penalty
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_un_us_human_rights
GENEVA – The United States dismissed international calls Tuesday to abolish the death penalty as friends and foes alike delivered their recommendations on how Washington can improve its human rights record.
U.S. State Department legal adviser Harold Koh said capital punishment was permitted under international law, brushing aside long-standing appeals by European countries and others to temporarily halt or completely abolish the death penalty, which critics say is inhumane and unfairly applied.
"While we respect those who make these recommendations, we note that they reflect continuing policy differences, not a genuine difference about what international law requires," Koh told the Geneva-based U.N. Human Rights Council.
The call to abolish the death penalty was repeated throughout the list of 228 recommendations by other nations that formed part of the first comprehensive review of Washington's human rights record before the council.
Other nations also urged the U.S. to reduce overcrowding in prisons, ratify international treaties on the rights of women and children, and take further steps to prevent racial profiling.
Koh said the U.S. was committed to rooting out injustices and would seriously consider some of the recommendations, including one to sign a U.N. declaration on the rights of indigenous people.
But in response to recommendations made by adversaries such as Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, Koh said some proposals were "plainly intended as political provocations, and cannot be taken seriously." He didn't elaborate.
Civil society groups have praised the United States for involving them in the review process, which all U.N. member states have to undergo every four years.
"This international engagement must be followed by concrete domestic policies and actions and a commitment to fixing all domestic human rights abuses, not just the ones that are most convenient," the director of the American Civil Liberties Union's human rights program, Jamil Dakwar, said in a statement.
i would expect that we keep on the topic of the us thumbing their nose at the international community yet again. why do we always have to be different? why do we never take into consideration the views of other nations? why do we never reconsider our position on any issue and god forbid admit that we might be wrong about something?
this thread is not a debate on the merit of the death penalty, it is not designed to be for or against it, is not for fingerpointing at each other, and is not for trying to justify your position based on your opinions. rather it is a frank and honest discussion and examination about why the united states, the supposed beacon of freedom and liberty in the world, feels the need to hang on to the antiquated notion that the death penalty is warranted in this day and age, and it is to discuss why we feel we need to act against the wishes of other nations in nearly all cases....
US rejects UN call to abolish death penalty
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_un_us_human_rights
GENEVA – The United States dismissed international calls Tuesday to abolish the death penalty as friends and foes alike delivered their recommendations on how Washington can improve its human rights record.
U.S. State Department legal adviser Harold Koh said capital punishment was permitted under international law, brushing aside long-standing appeals by European countries and others to temporarily halt or completely abolish the death penalty, which critics say is inhumane and unfairly applied.
"While we respect those who make these recommendations, we note that they reflect continuing policy differences, not a genuine difference about what international law requires," Koh told the Geneva-based U.N. Human Rights Council.
The call to abolish the death penalty was repeated throughout the list of 228 recommendations by other nations that formed part of the first comprehensive review of Washington's human rights record before the council.
Other nations also urged the U.S. to reduce overcrowding in prisons, ratify international treaties on the rights of women and children, and take further steps to prevent racial profiling.
Koh said the U.S. was committed to rooting out injustices and would seriously consider some of the recommendations, including one to sign a U.N. declaration on the rights of indigenous people.
But in response to recommendations made by adversaries such as Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, Koh said some proposals were "plainly intended as political provocations, and cannot be taken seriously." He didn't elaborate.
Civil society groups have praised the United States for involving them in the review process, which all U.N. member states have to undergo every four years.
"This international engagement must be followed by concrete domestic policies and actions and a commitment to fixing all domestic human rights abuses, not just the ones that are most convenient," the director of the American Civil Liberties Union's human rights program, Jamil Dakwar, said in a statement.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Post edited by Unknown User on
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by region, since 1977, there have been
1015 executions in the South
4 in the Northeast
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf
I think the country, er.. i mean state of Texas hold the majority of these executions. if you dont count them, we arent doing too bad.
Does anyone know where I might find the entire list of 228 recommendations?
I'd like to check the accuracy of this statement:
Cause I'm betting there are several which do indeed reflect what international law requires.
and i do doubt the sincerity of that quote above. if it was sincere we would not have a need for 228 recommentations, if we were doing the right things the number would be far fewer than that. why do our policies have to conflict with what the international community is asking of us?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
playing a little bit of devil's advocate here, because I do believe that the United States is obligated to take into consideration the feelings and recommendations of other countries.
If you start immediately enacting recommendations by other countries, at what point do you stop bowing to international pressure? A line in the sand needs to be drawn or we are no longer an autonomous country. I am not saying this is the right line, but some of these recommendations were not about human rights but about political cock-fighting. One of Cuba's was for us to release cuban citizens that were spying.
It will be interesting when we can see a complete list of all the recommendations. But one of them said that we have INHUMANE CONDITIONS in our JAILS. What the hell? What more do people want than 3 meals a day, a rough over people's heads, the ability to go to school, cable television, a rec yard, a weight room, a commissary, the ability to read books from all over the world, e-mail, etc...I am not saying I want to go there or anything, but for someone to call our Prison system inhumane is kidding themselves. Are some jails over-crowded...yes? but that does not lead to inhumane treatment or conditions.
I don't know, I do believe the united states has moved to a position of trying to understand and listen to what other countries would like to see from us, considering the Bush administrations handling of the UN, we have come a long way in a short time. But listening doesn't always mean having to agree. We are an interesting country, often times I liken it to someone picking on my sister. We can do it all day long, but as soon as someone outside the family starts to do it we get defensive whether we are right or wrong
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-c-f ... 41145.html
Or that the major human rights agencies disagree with you?
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/usa/index.html
http://www.hrw.org/en/by-issue/publications/2365
http://www.amnesty.ca/usa/supermax.php
Not sure if it was a consideration in these recommendations, but the US has the worlds largest (reported) prison population per capita….HALF of those incarcerated are there for non-violent marijuana convictions. When you consider the imbalance in stats of drug arrests between whites and minorities, you are left with the realization that there are a huge number of people incarcerated under inhumane conditions (by international standards), who committed no violent act, and were likely targeted for arrest based on racial profiling (which is a human rights violation). Add to that the fact that these prisons are privately owned, and for-profit....yikes.
some of the biggest terrorist operations in the world are run out of florida, they have released swine flu in cuba resulting in the deaths of 500,000 pigs, contaminated sugar to be sent russia, countless other acts.....so Cuba sent a group of individuals to keep gather info on these terrorist groups, since the FBI wouldn't do it. They presented all information they gathered to the FBI< basically saying, here are the terrorists, here's the evidence, now please put a stop to it. so the FBI arrested the Cubans who were trying to put a stop to the terrorism, instead of the terrorists.
have you seen locked up abroad on the Nat'l Geographic channel? how about read the midnight express?
Prison is a punishment. But here, you can actually better yourself in prison IF YOU CHOOSE TO, cannot say that about everywhere.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
link that isn't alex jones?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
edit to add, allowing them to exercise IS humane.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
yes it is, I can tell you, you do not want to be a guard in a prison with no rec time. Lots of piss and shit coming out of buckets on you if they don't get time to be worn out. Hard to cause trouble when you are exhausted.
But the prisoners are just as responsible for the conditions in the prisons. Act like grown men and women and they will treat you that way. That was my experience anyway.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
being a socio path isn't an excuse though. Having a mental illness isn't an excuse, I have a mental illness, I am not committing crimes. Most aren't mentally ill, they are criminals who made choices. They are responsible for there actions. They could just as easily be quiet, stick to themselves, and serve their time while bettering themselves with high school and college courses. they have a choice. Over crowding is a problem, I guess if you don't want to go to jail and face some tough conditions don't commit crimes. The choice is there, people make them everyday.
and the gangs come into prisons from the outside, not the other way around very often. The gangs are a problem, not a result of overcrowding. Also, doesn't it seem strange that they are joining gangs to escape from harm even though if there weren't gangs there probably wouldn't be nearly the violence that exists in prisons? Why is that a function of the guards treatment, overcrowding, or anything else? The prisoners could just NOT TRY TO HARM EACH OTHER.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Did you read the links I provided? Among other issues, Amnesty and HRW say that prisoners in these supermax prisons are, by international standards, tortured (mentally abused) by being isolated up to 23 hours a day.
It also states that based on the crimes committed, there is no justification for the prisoners to be held in such conditions.
people aren't kept in super max prisons with 23 hours of solitary for fun or because it was an unlucky draw...they earn it somewhere, somehow.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Why would you continue to argue without even looking at the contrary evidence I've already provided? If you're ok with your ignorance, that's one thing, but why try to infect others with your uninformed statements?
The links plainly state (as I did in my previous reply), that MANY of the people in these supermax's did NOT do anything to earn 23 hrs a day in solitary.
....despite the fact that is is PROVEN to be more detrimental to their mental health than it is rehabilitative. In your last post you stated that people are given the opportunity to better themselves in prison (which is false when speaking of supermax's), and trumpet it as a virtue of your system...Yet when told of the fact that relatively minor criminals are being abused to the point that they likely come out a much bigger threat to the community than when they went in, you say 'they earned it'?
Thats messed up
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Politicians are not concerned with it and I don't think anyone has any motivation to push for a federal mandate as it would open themselves up to attack during the next election cycle. For a democrat, it would be the equivalent of dousing themselves with gas and handing the matches to the GOP. There is no political or financial motivation for anyone.
From a personal perspective, I would prefer each state to handle the issue individually. I would prefer the federal focus to be on ending the wars and fixing the economy.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Honestly? I think it's arrogance, pure and simple. It's a "Damnit, we're America, nobody can tell us what to do!" attitude. I think there's a certain segment of the population that refuses to believe anyone outside of the 50 states could ever be smarter or have better ideas than them.
"The U.N. thinks we're being inhumane? Who the fuck do they think they are, anyway?"
"The whole world has accepted as fact that man is causing the Earth to warm at a faster rate than it should be, and they want us to limit our carbon emissions? Fuck them! We're not going to look into clean energy sources just because some pussy scientist from Norway says we should!" (like the politician from Oklahoma (I think) who said it was his right as an American to drive a car that spewed pollutants if he wanted to)
The country with an education system ranked in the 30s worldwide has spent so many years telling itself that it's the best in the world at everything, it can't possibly believe that anyone does anything better than it does.
The USA is a large country with 50 states and the most diversified public. Perhaps changes may be easier to make for smaller countries, but for the US change may come slower.
articles are one thing, go there and find out for yourself, I have been to a super max facility, have you? If it is dangerous to keep them any other way, what are you supposed to do?
edit to add: I have a degree in criminology, I have read more about prisons, there causes and effects, conditions, and seen it for myself. I am not just speaking from ignorance as you claim
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
No, I've never been to a supermax. But its right there in black and white; the brand of discipline employed in supermaxes are not up to international standards, and in some instances constitute human rights abuses. Again.....amnesty and HRW state that most of the people in the supermax system CAN be held in other ways...
(I think we're still on topic here, b/c your opinion that this is the only way to deal with these prisoners is an example of US righteousness - going against the grain despite international pressure to reform)
not only that... its morally unjustifiable.
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