Zack Galifianakis on Bill Maher

polaris_x

Drowned Out wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

As someone who's left, I'm not opposed to legalizing hemp...but its about #10 on my list of social justice priorities. I agree that the War on Drugs is awful, but again, there are more pressing issues that require our energy right now.

You know there is a difference between hemp and cannabis, right?
If you're talking domestic social justice issues, let's hear the other 9....cause I strongly disagree that there are many more pressing issues on that front.

poverty
environment
corporate welfare
violence against women
access to health care

Drowned Out

polaris_x wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

As someone who's left, I'm not opposed to legalizing hemp...but its about #10 on my list of social justice priorities. I agree that the War on Drugs is awful, but again, there are more pressing issues that require our energy right now.

You know there is a difference between hemp and cannabis, right?
If you're talking domestic social justice issues, let's hear the other 9....cause I strongly disagree that there are many more pressing issues on that front.

poverty
environment
corporate welfare
violence against women
access to health care

If the government allocated the money properly (ya right), ending the drug war could go a long way towards ending poverty and increasing access to health care – these issues are directly related IMO. I’ll give you the other three as an understood difference in opinion…but that’s only three…not 9, and not ‘many’

I’m betting a lot of violence against women IS related to drug/alcohol abuse, which may improve if poverty rates and addiction treatment improve….the social/legal resources freed by ending the drug war would allow more assistance to abused women.
There are even ways to tie corporate welfare to the drug war, but I’m starting to push the 9th degree of separation there
The environment is an over-arching issue involved in everything we do…I know that you know that legalizing hemp (not a drug, but remaining illegal as a byproduct of the WOD) would be a huge help on that front.

But aside from the money saved (and therefore available to spend as we see fit – on debt, social programs, health care etc)….We have to think of the number of imprisoned, non-violent offenders in North America (the states in particular), think of the lives derailed by criminal records resulting in denial of school loans or job placements, take into account the number of deaths that could have been prevented by a more effective drug policy… given the inter-connectedness of these social issues, from a human cost standpoint, the drug war is as important an issue as any.

dimitrispearljam

Greek name

Pepe Silvia

dimitrispearljam wrote:

Greek name

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GbV6INqRxw

Pepe Silvia

Commy wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

Commy wrote:

had no idea he was islamophobic

it should've been obvious to anyone who's watched religulous

having not seen it it, obviously it wasn't so obvious to me.

well that was obvious

vant0037

If the government allocated the money properly (ya right), ending the drug war could go a long way towards ending poverty and increasing access to health care – these issues are directly related IMO. I’ll give you the other three as an understood difference in opinion…but that’s only three…not 9, and not ‘many’

I’m betting a lot of violence against women IS related to drug/alcohol abuse, which may improve if poverty rates and addiction treatment improve….the social/legal resources freed by ending the drug war would allow more assistance to abused women.
There are even ways to tie corporate welfare to the drug war, but I’m starting to push the 9th degree of separation there
The environment is an over-arching issue involved in everything we do…I know that you know that legalizing hemp (not a drug, but remaining illegal as a byproduct of the WOD) would be a huge help on that front.

But aside from the money saved (and therefore available to spend as we see fit – on debt, social programs, health care etc)….We have to think of the number of imprisoned, non-violent offenders in North America (the states in particular), think of the lives derailed by criminal records resulting in denial of school loans or job placements, take into account the number of deaths that could have been prevented by a more effective drug policy… given the inter-connectedness of these social issues, from a human cost standpoint, the drug war is as important an issue as any.

Saying that there is an economic interest in ending the War on Drugs ignores the fact that prisons are an industry. An enormously profitable industry. In other words, there's a huge economic incentive to keeping people locked up -- non-violent drug offenders or not. Read anything by Angela Y. Davis for more information. So while I agree that ending the War on Drugs is a great goal, its not a simple issue you can attack. It implicates military spending, private industries and lobbyists, immigration, the drug trade, power struggles in developing countries etc. I agree that its a big, interconnected issue that touches on a lot of other issues. But that's precisely what makes ending the War on Drugs as a means to alleviate other social injustices pretty inefficient. In the time it would take to end the War on Drugs effectively, where would we be with the rest of those issues? Like I said, I agree that we should be working toward ending the War on Drugs, but I don't think ending the War on Drugs and legalizing hemp/cannabis is as simple as it sounds. There are very strong, influential and powerful interests running the other way.

As for more pressing social issues, pick up a newspaper?

Believe me, as a former public defender and now criminal prosecutor, I completely understand and appreciate what the War on Drugs does to people. But I'm not convinced that legalizing marijuana 1) truly alleviates all the issues you cite as resulting from the War on Drugs, 2) is even possible (given how profitable the War on Drugs is) and 3) is more of a pressing issue than say, gay rights, or ending poverty, or creating jobs. Why not attack those issues directly? Small bites first?

polaris_x

Drowned Out wrote:

If the government allocated the money properly (ya right), ending the drug war could go a long way towards ending poverty and increasing access to health care – these issues are directly related IMO. I’ll give you the other three as an understood difference in opinion…but that’s only three…not 9, and not ‘many’

I’m betting a lot of violence against women IS related to drug/alcohol abuse, which may improve if poverty rates and addiction treatment improve….the social/legal resources freed by ending the drug war would allow more assistance to abused women.
There are even ways to tie corporate welfare to the drug war, but I’m starting to push the 9th degree of separation there
The environment is an over-arching issue involved in everything we do…I know that you know that legalizing hemp (not a drug, but remaining illegal as a byproduct of the WOD) would be a huge help on that front.

But aside from the money saved (and therefore available to spend as we see fit – on debt, social programs, health care etc)….We have to think of the number of imprisoned, non-violent offenders in North America (the states in particular), think of the lives derailed by criminal records resulting in denial of school loans or job placements, take into account the number of deaths that could have been prevented by a more effective drug policy… given the inter-connectedness of these social issues, from a human cost standpoint, the drug war is as important an issue as any.

well ... i wasn't the person who said 9 ... i was just pointing out some social justice issues that i think are more important ...

i'm sorry - but your argument tying in the war on drugs to everything else doesn't hold water ... in fact, i don't think the war and drugs and the issue of legalizing marijuana are exactly the same thing ... i can however agree the war on drugs is a waste of money and resources however, i don't think that if it was scrapped - we'd someohow end poverty or child hunger ... and no, i do not see legalizing marijuana as something that would necessarily help the environment ... if you are talking about the qualities of hemp in product vs. cotton ... we can already buy products made from hemp ...

Drowned Out

vant0037 wrote:

Saying that there is an economic interest in ending the War on Drugs ignores the fact that prisons are an industry. An enormously profitable industry. In other words, there's a huge economic incentive to keeping people locked up -- non-violent drug offenders or not. Read anything by Angela Y. Davis for more information. So while I agree that ending the War on Drugs is a great goal, its not a simple issue you can attack. It implicates military spending, private industries and lobbyists, immigration, the drug trade, power struggles in developing countries etc. I agree that its a big, interconnected issue that touches on a lot of other issues. But that's precisely what makes ending the War on Drugs as a means to alleviate other social injustices pretty inefficient. In the time it would take to end the War on Drugs effectively, where would we be with the rest of those issues? Like I said, I agree that we should be working toward ending the War on Drugs, but I don't think ending the War on Drugs and legalizing hemp/cannabis is as simple as it sounds. There are very strong, influential and powerful interests running the other way.

As for more pressing social issues, pick up a newspaper?

Believe me, as a former public defender and now criminal prosecutor, I completely understand and appreciate what the War on Drugs does to people. But I'm not convinced that legalizing marijuana 1) truly alleviates all the issues you cite as resulting from the War on Drugs, 2) is even possible (given how profitable the War on Drugs is) and 3) is more of a pressing issue than say, gay rights, or ending poverty, or creating jobs. Why not attack those issues directly? Small bites first?

polaris_x wrote:

well ... i wasn't the person who said 9 ... i was just pointing out some social justice issues that i think are more important ...

i'm sorry - but your argument tying in the war on drugs to everything else doesn't hold water ... in fact, i don't think the war and drugs and the issue of legalizing marijuana are exactly the same thing ... i can however agree the war on drugs is a waste of money and resources however, i don't think that if it was scrapped - we'd someohow end poverty or child hunger ... and no, i do not see legalizing marijuana as something that would necessarily help the environment ... if you are talking about the qualities of hemp in product vs. cotton ... we can already buy products made from hemp ...

I guess I'll respond to both of you at once...
i never said that ending the war on drugs (or MJ in particular) would be a magical band-aid solution to any of those problems, only that the money saved, and social ramifications, would help the other issues. I also don't mean to discount any of the other social issues. Obviously, immediate things like violence against women need to be met head-on and acted upon regardless of influencing factors. But we need to eventually address the influencing factors as well - I think improving education and care for addicts would be a step in that direction.
Ending MJ prohibition, and ending the drug war most definitely are synonymous....what were the latest numbers in the US? 60% of drug arrests were for MJ?
I'm aware of the number of industries and heavy hitters opposed to legalization based on their bottom line. I understand where you're coming from there, and agree. Despite my hopes, I hold very little optimism for any serious reform because of this, and always chuckle when people say things like "it will be legal soon". I just don't see it....
If the money spent on prisons was spent on hospitals and treatment centres, would the job creation not be a wash? I'm sure that's oversimplifying the issue, but in broad terms, that's the ideal. And while we're speaking in terms of ideals - the moral imperative of NOT locking up harmless drug offenders HAS to trump the jobs created by a for-profit prison system. Unfortunately, moral imperatives usually mean jack shit when it comes to money.

As for hemp and the environment (yes, hemp only - legalizing MJ would have no direct effect on the environment)...hemp can compete with thousands of products, not just cotton. I'm not entirely up to speed on the industry as it stands, but last I checked, it was incredibly difficult to be permitted to grow hemp in Canada (exponentially more difficult in the US), and I would guess that these regulations add up to essentially subsidizing the competing products (corporate welfare?). A huge number of those competing products are petro-chemical based (that's why hemp was prohibited in the first place - to allow bigger profits for the oil industry).....widespread use of commercial/agro hemp would make a much bigger environmental impact than most realize.

Obviously, I hold the WOD to a higher degree of accountability in what ails our society than you two do...but I think we all agree that it's ludicrous and reform is important enough to move on. No reason we can't tackle more than one problem at a time.

vant0037

Drowned Out wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

Saying that there is an economic interest in ending the War on Drugs ignores the fact that prisons are an industry. An enormously profitable industry. In other words, there's a huge economic incentive to keeping people locked up -- non-violent drug offenders or not. Read anything by Angela Y. Davis for more information. So while I agree that ending the War on Drugs is a great goal, its not a simple issue you can attack. It implicates military spending, private industries and lobbyists, immigration, the drug trade, power struggles in developing countries etc. I agree that its a big, interconnected issue that touches on a lot of other issues. But that's precisely what makes ending the War on Drugs as a means to alleviate other social injustices pretty inefficient. In the time it would take to end the War on Drugs effectively, where would we be with the rest of those issues? Like I said, I agree that we should be working toward ending the War on Drugs, but I don't think ending the War on Drugs and legalizing hemp/cannabis is as simple as it sounds. There are very strong, influential and powerful interests running the other way.

As for more pressing social issues, pick up a newspaper?

Believe me, as a former public defender and now criminal prosecutor, I completely understand and appreciate what the War on Drugs does to people. But I'm not convinced that legalizing marijuana 1) truly alleviates all the issues you cite as resulting from the War on Drugs, 2) is even possible (given how profitable the War on Drugs is) and 3) is more of a pressing issue than say, gay rights, or ending poverty, or creating jobs. Why not attack those issues directly? Small bites first?

polaris_x wrote:

well ... i wasn't the person who said 9 ... i was just pointing out some social justice issues that i think are more important ...

i'm sorry - but your argument tying in the war on drugs to everything else doesn't hold water ... in fact, i don't think the war and drugs and the issue of legalizing marijuana are exactly the same thing ... i can however agree the war on drugs is a waste of money and resources however, i don't think that if it was scrapped - we'd someohow end poverty or child hunger ... and no, i do not see legalizing marijuana as something that would necessarily help the environment ... if you are talking about the qualities of hemp in product vs. cotton ... we can already buy products made from hemp ...

I guess I'll respond to both of you at once...
i never said that ending the war on drugs (or MJ in particular) would be a magical band-aid solution to any of those problems, only that the money saved, and social ramifications, would help the other issues. I also don't mean to discount any of the other social issues. Obviously, immediate things like violence against women need to be met head-on and acted upon regardless of influencing factors. But we need to eventually address the influencing factors as well - I think improving education and care for addicts would be a step in that direction.
Ending MJ prohibition, and ending the drug war most definitely are synonymous....what were the latest numbers in the US? 60% of drug arrests were for MJ?
I'm aware of the number of industries and heavy hitters opposed to legalization based on their bottom line. I understand where you're coming from there, and agree. Despite my hopes, I hold very little optimism for any serious reform because of this, and always chuckle when people say things like "it will be legal soon". I just don't see it....
If the money spent on prisons was spent on hospitals and treatment centres, would the job creation not be a wash? I'm sure that's oversimplifying the issue, but in broad terms, that's the ideal. And while we're speaking in terms of ideals - the moral imperative of NOT locking up harmless drug offenders HAS to trump the jobs created by a for-profit prison system. Unfortunately, moral imperatives usually mean jack shit when it comes to money.

As for hemp and the environment (yes, hemp only - legalizing MJ would have no direct effect on the environment)...hemp can compete with thousands of products, not just cotton. I'm not entirely up to speed on the industry as it stands, but last I checked, it was incredibly difficult to be permitted to grow hemp in Canada (exponentially more difficult in the US), and I would guess that these regulations add up to essentially subsidizing the competing products (corporate welfare?). A huge number of those competing products are petro-chemical based (that's why hemp was prohibited in the first place - to allow bigger profits for the oil industry).....widespread use of commercial/agro hemp would make a much bigger environmental impact than most realize.

Obviously, I hold the WOD to a higher degree of accountability in what ails our society than you two do...but I think we all agree that it's ludicrous and reform is important enough to move on. No reason we can't tackle more than one problem at a time.

We agree on most everything, because yes, legalizing marijuana and curtailing or ending the War on Drugs would solve a lot of problems. No one disputes that. Where I disagree is that it is an equally pressing social injustice; I don't believe it is, if only because its simply not doable in any practical time frame or without any tremendous (insurmountable?) resistance. Its kind of like saying "the most important issue for world peace is sorting out the Middle East" (which is true), but then not focusing on the individual issues that, in part, compose the Middle East's problems. Clearly by viewing the problem as one giant mess (which it is), nothing will get done. You have to be pragmatic about it and prioritize which issue needs to be and can be addressed first. Same for the War on Drugs. Of course ending the War on Drugs could create jobs by building hospitals and treatment centers, but does that make it likely and thus "pressing?" And wouldn't the prison industry (a high growth industry unfortunately) just chirp back about all the prison jobs that are being cut? Of course.

My point is only that legalizing marijuana/hemp/etc is a great ideal and goal we should be working for, but perhaps a long-term goal. I see it as too interconnected a problem to solve in any timely and manageable way, when there are more immediate problems that could be addressed quicker (and alleviate suffering or injustice now). That's not to rank the suffering or injustice caused by the War on Drugs as less important, but again, probably a problem that's not solveable in the mean time anyway. Think of it: if we can't agree as a nation that health care is a good thing for all Americans to have, what chance do we have on agreeing to take any meaningful action toward ending the War on Drugs?

Like I said...small bites first...

Glad we're all on the same ship though.

Drowned Out

Ya, we're on the same ship, but....
I won't give up on my anti-prohibitionist stance just because it's a difficult fight. I certainly don't see it as any more difficult to overcome than any of the other issues listed here. Ending poverty, violence against women, fixing the environment, tax reforms, access to health care, gay rights....none of these are going to change overnight. In fact, aside from tax reforms, and maybe gay rights, these are probably a lot MORE difficult/complicated issues to tackle than prohibtion. Baby steps have been underway for years - medicinal pot, changes in hemp regulation, changes in public opinion....it's not hopeless, and I'd be surprised to see meaningful change in the next decade...but it's working and still a very worthy cause IMO.

polaris_x

Drowned Out wrote:

Ya, we're on the same ship, but....
I won't give up on my anti-prohibitionist stance just because it's a difficult fight. I certainly don't see it as any more difficult to overcome than any of the other issues listed here. Ending poverty, violence against women, fixing the environment, tax reforms, access to health care, gay rights....none of these are going to change overnight. In fact, aside from tax reforms, and maybe gay rights, these are probably a lot MORE difficult/complicated issues to tackle than prohibtion. Baby steps have been underway for years - medicinal pot, changes in hemp regulation, changes in public opinion....it's not hopeless, and I'd be surprised to see meaningful change in the next decade...but it's working and still a very worthy cause IMO.

the thing is tho ... assuming we are talking about pot ... although its illegal, its about as illegal as is jaywalking ... i don't know anyone who smokes pot who feels like they have to do it in the bsmt at night and have to buy from dealers in shady spots ... people who want to smoke pot can do so relatively easily ...

vant0037

Drowned Out wrote:

Ya, we're on the same ship, but....
I won't give up on my anti-prohibitionist stance just because it's a difficult fight. I certainly don't see it as any more difficult to overcome than any of the other issues listed here. Ending poverty, violence against women, fixing the environment, tax reforms, access to health care, gay rights....none of these are going to change overnight. In fact, aside from tax reforms, and maybe gay rights, these are probably a lot MORE difficult/complicated issues to tackle than prohibtion. Baby steps have been underway for years - medicinal pot, changes in hemp regulation, changes in public opinion....it's not hopeless, and I'd be surprised to see meaningful change in the next decade...but it's working and still a very worthy cause IMO.

No one (certainly not me) is saying you have to abandon your cause. But when the question is whether or not the War on Drugs issue is as pressing an issue as making sure 4 year olds have enough food to eat and proper health care, or making sure that gays have equal economic and social freedoms (including freedom from violence), or making sure that government-provided social services aren't cut even more in our current crisis (like unemployment benefits or healthcare for the elderly or poor), I'm going to simply say its not as pressing an issue. That doesn't mean ending the War on Drugs isn't important, but its simply going to have to take a back seat when we've got problems of hungry or homeless children and families, gays being beaten or killed and denied equal protection under the law and millions without work.

My only point is let's fight the good fight but also keep in mind that right now, there's probably more urgent issues at hand.

Drowned Out

polaris_x wrote:

the thing is tho ... assuming we are talking about pot ... although its illegal, its about as illegal as is jaywalking ... i don't know anyone who smokes pot who feels like they have to do it in the bsmt at night and have to buy from dealers in shady spots ... people who want to smoke pot can do so relatively easily ...

I’m talking about the drug war in general (I oppose prohibition of any drug), but we can use pot as an example, sure…
No, people don’t feel they need to hide in their basements, but you’re mistaken if you think it can be done repeatedly in the open without repercussion. You are seriously downplaying enforcement, and ignoring the hypocrisy of not convicting people for small amounts, while arresting the guy that sold it to them, or grew it for them. Minor possession arrests rose by 20% - 50% in all Canadian cities after the election of the Harper government killed the decrim bill the libs had introduced. Possession charges have averaged about 25,000 a year since 2006, after a dip in enforcement while the decrim bill was tabled. Since then, the Harper government introduced a bill (C-15) to begin mandatory minimums in Canada. It was thankfully killed by their prorogation, but they’ve promised to rewrite and introduce it again in March. So we're aking HUGE steps backwards in some aspects, AGAINST public opinion.
So it is nowhere near jaywalking. In most cases, anything more than a joint or roach will get you arrested. And it’s basically left to the cop’s discretion. Police should not be interpreting law in a civilized society, they should be enforcing ALL just laws. It’s wrong for us to put this responsibility on them. When it’s discretionary enforcement, it basically amounts to harassment…Plus...you’re a white Canadian… Your opinion on this would probably be different if you were a black or Hispanic American.

Drowned Out

vant0037 wrote:

No one (certainly not me) is saying you have to abandon your cause. But when the question is whether or not the War on Drugs issue is as pressing an issue as making sure 4 year olds have enough food to eat and proper health care, or making sure that gays have equal economic and social freedoms (including freedom from violence), or making sure that government-provided social services aren't cut even more in our current crisis (like unemployment benefits or healthcare for the elderly or poor), I'm going to simply say its not as pressing an issue. That doesn't mean ending the War on Drugs isn't important, but its simply going to have to take a back seat when we've got problems of hungry or homeless children and families, gays being beaten or killed and denied equal protection under the law and millions without work.

My only point is let's fight the good fight but also keep in mind that right now, there's probably more urgent issues at hand.

I know what you’re saying, but we have to be able to multi-task on the activism front There will ALWAYS be something more pressing…someone has to work on these things. I could say that none of the domestic issues we face matter at all while we support via policy the ethnic cleansing/apartheid in Palestine, famine in Africa, human rights violations, military expansion and aggression etc etc….Tell you what….you work on gay rights, I’ve got the anti-prohibition thing. We’ll have a big pot smoking rainbow rally one day to flip a collective bird at the religious right and corporate America – the people working to inflict draconian laws on the rest of us.

vant0037

Drowned Out wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

No one (certainly not me) is saying you have to abandon your cause. But when the question is whether or not the War on Drugs issue is as pressing an issue as making sure 4 year olds have enough food to eat and proper health care, or making sure that gays have equal economic and social freedoms (including freedom from violence), or making sure that government-provided social services aren't cut even more in our current crisis (like unemployment benefits or healthcare for the elderly or poor), I'm going to simply say its not as pressing an issue. That doesn't mean ending the War on Drugs isn't important, but its simply going to have to take a back seat when we've got problems of hungry or homeless children and families, gays being beaten or killed and denied equal protection under the law and millions without work.

My only point is let's fight the good fight but also keep in mind that right now, there's probably more urgent issues at hand.

I know what you’re saying, but we have to be able to multi-task on the activism front There will ALWAYS be something more pressing…someone has to work on these things. I could say that none of the domestic issues we face matter at all while we support via policy the ethnic cleansing/apartheid in Palestine, famine in Africa, human rights violations, military expansion and aggression etc etc….Tell you what….you work on gay rights, I’ve got the anti-prohibition thing. We’ll have a big pot smoking rainbow rally one day to flip a collective bird at the religious right and corporate America – the people working to inflict draconian laws on the rest of us.

Word up to that my friend. I'm in - let's do it.