Outrage on campus over student's suicide after sex is broadc

gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
edited October 2010 in A Moving Train
i didn't see this posted anywhere so i thought i would throw it on here...how terribly sad...you all know i talk a lot, but words fail me when i read about things like this happening, people killing themselves due to the actions of others. it is just terrible and tragic. to read his final facebook status is just heartbreaking...i really feel for this kid and for his family.... :(

Outrage on campus over student's suicide after sex is broadcast online
'It's intolerant, it's upsetting, it makes it seem that being gay is something that is wrong'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39438381/ns ... nd_courts/

The suicide of a university student — after a recording of him having a sexual encounter with a man was broadcast online — has stirred outrage and remorse on campus from classmates.

"Had he been in bed with a woman, this would not have happened," said Rutgers University student Lauren Felton, 21. "He wouldn't have been outed via an online broadcast and his privacy would have been respected and he might still have his life."

Gay rights groups say Tyler Clementi's suicide make him a national example of a problem they are working to combat: Young people who kill themselves after being tormented over their sexuality.

A lawyer for Clementi's family confirmed Wednesday that he had jumped off the George Washington Bridge last week .


A body found in the Hudson River off New York City was identified on Thursday as Clementi's. New York City medical examiner's spokeswoman Grace Burgess confirmed Clementi committed suicide, saying he drowned and had impact injuries on his torso.

Clementi's roommate, Dharun Ravi, and fellow Rutgers student Molly Wei, both 18, have been charged with invading Clementi's privacy.

Middlesex County prosecutors say the pair used a webcam to surreptitiously transmit a live image of Clementi having sex on Sept. 19 and that Ravi tried to webcast a second encounter on Sept. 21, the day before Clementi's suicide.

Collecting or viewing sexual images without consent is a fourth-degree crime. Transmitting them is a third-degree crime with a maximum prison term of five years.

Ravi wrote Sept. 19 on what is believed to be his Twitter page, which has since been deleted, but is still accessible though Google's cache system: "Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay."

Two days later, Ravi apparently posted another entry referring to iChat, an internet messaging service with a live video feed.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote in the Sept. 21 post.

Clementi's last cry for help?
The website Gawker reported that a user called cit2mo who posted messages on a website called JustUsBoys may have been Clementi.

In a thread called "college roommate spying," the post from cit2mo on Sept. 21 at 7:22 a.m. said: "so the other night i had a guy over. I had talked to my roommate that afternoon and he had said it would be fine w/him. I checked his twitter today. he tweeted that I was using the room (which is obnoxious enough), AND that he went into somebody else’s room and remotely turned on his webcam and saw me making out with a guy. given the angle of the webcam I can be confident that that was all he could have seen," cit2mo wrote.

"I’m kinda pissed at him (rightfully so I think, no?) ... I feel like the only thing the school might do is find me another roommate, probably with me moving out … and i’d probably just end up with somebody worse than him ... I mean aside from being an asshole from time to time, he’s a pretty decent roommate," he added.

He added at 9:28 a.m. that day, that "I feel like it was 'look at what a fag my roommate is' ... and the fact that the people he was with saw my making out with a guy as a scandal whereas i mean come on ... he was SPYING ON ME ... do they see nothing wrong with this? unsettling to say the least."

ABC News and The Star-Ledger of Newark reported that on Sept. 22 Clementi left a note on his Facebook page that read: "Jumping off the gw bridge sorry." On Wednesday, his Facebook page was accessible only to friends.

Even if the young violinist was not well known at his new school, his death stirred outrage.

"The notion that video of Tyler doing what he was doing can be considered a spectacle is just heinous," said Jordan Gochman, 19, who didn't know Clementi. "It's intolerant, it's upsetting, it makes it seem that being gay is something that is wrong and can be considered laughable."

Other students who did know Clementi were upset that they didn't do more to help him. "I wish I could have been more of an ally," said Georges Richa.

About 100 people gathered Wednesday night for a vigil on campus. They lay on the ground and chanted slogans such as, "We're here, we're queer, we're not going home."

Several gay rights groups linked Clementi's death to the troubling phenomenon of young people committing suicide after being harassed over their sexuality.

On Tuesday, a 13-year-old California boy died nine days after classmates found him hanging from a tree. Authorities say other teens had taunted the boy, Seth Walsh of Tehachapi, for being gay.

'Heartbroken'
Steven Goldstein, chairman of New Jersey-based Garden State Equality, said in a statement that his group considers Clementi's death a hate crime.

"We are heartbroken over the tragic loss of a young man who, by all accounts, was brilliant, talented and kind," Goldstein said. "And we are sickened that anyone in our society, such as the students allegedly responsible for making the surreptitious video, might consider destroying others' lives as a sport."

Rutgers University President Richard McCormick wrote in a letter to the campus.

"If the charges are true, these actions gravely violate the university's standards of decency and humanity," he said.

Coincidentally, the university on Wednesday was launching a new two-year Project Civility, designed to get students thinking about how they treat others.

A lawyer for Ravi did not immediately return a message seeking comment. It was unclear whether Wei had retained a lawyer.

100929-Rutgers-hmed-6p.grid-6x2.jpg

Tyler Clementi, left, is thought to have committed suicide, days after video of him was secretly webcast on the Internet. Clementi's roommate, Dharun Ravi, center, and another classmate, Molly Wei, have been charged in the case.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • __ Posts: 6,651
    WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE??? :evil: :evil:

    Here's another story about it, from NPR:

    Student's Suicide Highlights Bullying Over Sexuality
  • I can't really even put my thoughts/feelings into words after reading things like this...
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    I can't really even put my thoughts/feelings into words after reading things like this...

    That's exactly how I feel. :(
  • haffajappahaffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    i just read about this about an hour ago.
    its completely disgusting. :x

    Ravi and Wei must have considered it a "character builder" ...or something. :roll:
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • "Makes much more sense to live in the present tense"

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  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    ^ i didn't see this...sorry...it is still really sad and really cruel for them to have done that to him...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • ^ i didn't see this...sorry...it is still really sad and really cruel for them to have done that to him...
    Its all good. and yes very sad story indeed... :(
    "Makes much more sense to live in the present tense"

    Mansfield 08 1
    Boston 2010
    Montreal 2011
    EV Prov 11
    Worcester 1 13
    Worcester 2 13
    Hartford 13
    Boston 16 - 1
    Boston 16 - 2
    Boston 18 - 1
    Boston 18 -2 
    MSG 24 - 1
    Boston 24 -1
    Boston 24 -2 
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    more details emerge....i can't believe that people would post comments thanking the suspects for their role in the death of a gay man....sad... :cry:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39456960/ns ... nd_courts/

    Posts indicate alleged sex-snooping victim e-mailed staff for help before suicide
    RA 'seemed to take it seriously,' forum post says; message also says student e-mailed other university staff

    PISCATAWAY, N.J. — The college freshman who jumped to his death after two other teens allegedly streamed online video of his sexual encounter with another man had turned to university staff to help deal with the situation before his suicide, according to messages he is believed to have posted online.

    After 18-year-old Rutgers University student Tyler Clementi became aware of the alleged broadcast from posts on roommate Dharun Ravi's social networking sites, he told a resident adviser (RA) about the problem, according to posts attributed to him in forums on the gay website JustUsBoys.com.

    On Sept. 22, user cit2mo, widely reported as being Clementi, wrote that his RA "seemed to take it seriously ... he asked me to email him a written paragraph about what exactly happened ... I emailed it to him, and to two people above him...."

    There was no indication as to who the two people above the resident adviser were, and whether they received an e-mail from Clementi.

    It was later that same day that Clementi jumped from the George Washington Bridge between New Jersey and New York. The last known Internet post from him was a brief message on his Facebook page: "Jumping off the gw bridge sorry." Police recovered Clementi's body from the water on Wednesday.

    Rutgers spokesman Greg Trevor told msnbc.com the university would not discuss specifics of the case.

    Clementi's family issued a statement Friday through lawyer Paul Mainardi asking for privacy "in this painful time."

    "We understand that our family's personal tragedy presents important legal issues for the country as well as for us. Regardless of legal outcomes, our hope is that our family's personal tragedy will serve as a call for compassion, empathy and human dignity," the statement said.

    The family said funeral services will be private.

    While it's not possible to be certain that Clementi wrote the posts in the discussion forum, they mirror the same timeline as the alleged filming and reflect the anguish someone in that situation might have felt. Forbes.com cited a post from Ravi's now-defunct Twitter account that indicated he learned of his roommate's sexuality from other JustUsBoys posts by that user, which he linked to from the tweet.

    The website Gawker first reported on the online discussions. Under cit2mo's name on the JustUsBoys forum now reads the line, "In Loving Memory."

    The user started the discussion thread on Sept. 21 by explaining how he found out about the alleged video streaming from checking his roommate's Twitter feed. The writer then proposed ideas as to how he should handle the situation and asked for advice on what to do next.

    He expressed anger with the roommate and noted that he seemed to have had an audience during the encounter.

    'He was spying on me'
    "And so I feel like it was 'look at what a fag my roommate is,'" the cit2mo post said. "Other people have commented on his profile with things like 'how did you manage to go back in there? 'are you ok?'" The user also pointed out that people seemed to focus on his encounter, instead of the roommate's spying.

    "...i mean come on...he was SPYING ON ME....do they see nothing wrong with this?" the post said.

    At that point, the cit2mo message indicated that he had decided to fill out a form requesting a room change.

    In the early morning hours of Sept. 22, cit2mo described the situation the night before, saying he texted his roommate to asking for privacy in advance. He said that when he returned to his room, he noticed the roommate's webcam had been turned to face his bed and said the roommate again promoted the "free show." It was at that point that cit2mo "ran to the nearest RA and set this thing in motion."

    That day, Ravi posted to his 148 Twitter followers, "Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it’s happening again," the New Jersey Star-Ledger reported.

    The JustUsBoys user said he simply continued as planned, but unplugged his roommate computer first. His next post indicated that he'd also recorded images of the roommate's Twitter feed.

    In previous posts on the same thread, cit2mo described his research into his school's privacy policy, and noted it said that recording someone in a place where they would expect privacy could result in expulsion.

    "The only things is...there are too many 'could's ....the fact that he didn't ACTUALLY record me (to my knowledge) and the fact that the school really prolly won't do much of anything...."

    He said he'd mention the incident to his RA before writing, "and yah, revenge never ends well for me, as much as I would love to pour pink paint all over his stuff.....that would just let him win....."

    Charges against roommate, friend
    Ravi, of Plainsboro, and Molly W. Wei, of Princeton, both 18, have been charged with two counts each of invasion of privacy. Ravi also is charged with two counts of invasion of privacy for attempting to use the camera to view and transmit another encounter involving the student two days later.

    Middlesex County Prosecutor Bruce J. Kaplan said Thursday that his department's investigation was continuing and that more charges were possible under New Jersey's hate-crimes law.

    "We will be making every effort to assess whether bias played a role in the incident, and, if so, we will bring appropriate charges," he said in a statement.

    Motive is at the core of the possible new charges. A person can be found guilty of a bias crime in New Jersey if the jury agrees that he or she committed a crime because of a belief that the victim is a member of a protected group, such as homosexuals or a racial minority.

    Ravi's lawyer has not responded to requests for comment. Messages left with an attorney believed to be representing Wei were not returned.

    High school friends of the suspects, both 2010 graduates of West Windsor-Plainsboro High, say the suspects have no issue with gay people.

    "He had gay friends," Derek Yan, 16, told The Associated Press of Ravi. Yan said that he chatted online with his former schoolmate about college life in recent weeks. "He said he was lucky to have a good roommate," Yan said. "He said his roommate was cool."

    'I would never expect this'
    Numerous websites have popped up in defense of the suspects, with some proclaiming their innocence or calling their alleged actions a prank. Countless other sites, however, were dedicated to criticizing the suspects or calling for stiffer charges, including manslaughter.

    The comments on the pages are emotional and sometimes vitriolic. Some postings call the suspects "sickos" and "cold-blooded killers" while others contain homophobic and racist content (both suspects are of Asian heritage), even thanking the suspects for their possible role in a gay man's death.

    Luanne Peterpaul, who has worked as a prosecutor and criminal defense lawyer and serves as the vice chairwoman of the gay rights group Garden State Equality, said bias crimes can be hard to prove.

    She said prosecutors should look at evidence including the Twitter messages Ravi may have used to alert friends to the alleged video. She said that there might be clues as to his intent.

    Peterpaul said she believes that filming a man and a woman engaged in sex in a dorm room would not have had the same results.

    "It's quite possible that maybe they would have videotaped an opposite-sex couple," she said. "But would there have been such a following?"

    Friends were shocked that Clementi, a talented violinist who was known as quiet but happy, would have been embroiled in scandal — or would have killed himself.

    "I would never expect this to happen to him," said John Shen, a student at the New York Institute of Technology and a high school friend of Clementi's who last saw him about a month ago. "He's such a good kid. I've never seen him angry."
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    His roommate and classmate should get a bullet in the head
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    whygohome wrote:
    His roommate and classmate should get a bullet in the head
    then where would we be?
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    Commy wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    His roommate and classmate should get a bullet in the head
    then where would we be?

    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.
  • haffajappahaffajappa British Columbia Posts: 5,955
    whygohome wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    His roommate and classmate should get a bullet in the head
    then where would we be?

    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.
    that won't bring the kid back...
    live pearl jam is best pearl jam
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.[/quote]
    that won't bring the kid back...[/quote]

    Irrelevant. These pieces of shit should be punished. The kid who committed suicide didn't deserve this. These assholes are guilty of murder as far as I am concerned. It is despicable what they did.
    Shit like this happens all too often because we have no consideration of what it is to be have consideration and respect for our fellow man. We are a stupid, selfish, self-absorbed, individualistic "society" and I am tired of it. WE are the problem.
  • focus on the issue, not the anger that is brought on by it.

    you wanna have respect for your fellow man? then don't kill him either!
    whygohome wrote:
    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.


    These pieces of shit should be punished. The kid who committed suicide didn't deserve this. These assholes are guilty of murder as far as I am concerned. It is despicable what they did.
    Shit like this happens all too often because we have no consideration of what it is to be have consideration and respect for our fellow man. We are a stupid, selfish, self-absorbed, individualistic "society" and I am tired of it. WE are the problem.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    Paul David wrote:
    focus on the issue, not the anger that is brought on by it.

    you wanna have respect for your fellow man? then don't kill him either!
    whygohome wrote:
    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.


    These pieces of shit should be punished. The kid who committed suicide didn't deserve this. These assholes are guilty of murder as far as I am concerned. It is despicable what they did.
    Shit like this happens all too often because we have no consideration of what it is to be have consideration and respect for our fellow man. We are a stupid, selfish, self-absorbed, individualistic "society" and I am tired of it. WE are the problem.

    I don't consider them people. I also think I am intelligent enough to focus on the issue and not the anger brought on by it.
    The bottom line is we have a society that is in a state of regression for a multitude of reasons. The idea that 2 people intentionally wanted to hurt and humiliate another person, someone who they knew closely, shows a serious flaw in the fabric of basic human respect. People are stupid and disgusting. Maybe there is nothing we can do about it though.
  • whygohome wrote:
    WE are the problem.

    you are correct on one point, though.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    Paul David wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    WE are the problem.

    you are correct on one point, though.

    More than one. Because of the actions of these 2 assholes, 1 person no longer gets the opportunity to live a full life. Why should they?
  • I agree that society is fucked up in general. However, I don't agree that it's getting worse. It's the media phenomenon. It's the same thing as people thinking that crime is worse than it was back in the 60's or that there are more pedophiles than back then. Not true. It's just more widely reported than before.

    Not to mention the fact that the mediums being used in these bullying attacks is now a lot of the times social media itself, so it's out there before it's even out there.

    What these kids did is absolutely abhorent. But you honestly think they deserve the death penalty? SERIOUSLY?
    :roll:
    whygohome wrote:

    I don't consider them people. I also think I am intelligent enough to focus on the issue and not the anger brought on by it.
    The bottom line is we have a society that is in a state of regression for a multitude of reasons. The idea that 2 people intentionally wanted to hurt and humiliate another person, someone who they knew closely, shows a serious flaw in the fabric of basic human respect. People are stupid and disgusting. Maybe there is nothing we can do about it though.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • because it's ludicrous to accuse them of knowing the consequences of these actions, like murdering someone. believe me, I'm not taking this lightly. look at the old bullying thread, you'll see how this affects me, but my GOD MAN, to believe they should die because of this???
    whygohome wrote:
    Paul David wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    WE are the problem.

    you are correct on one point, though.

    More than one. Because of the actions of these 2 assholes, 1 person no longer gets the opportunity to live a full life. Why should they?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    Paul David wrote:
    I agree that society is fucked up in general. However, I don't agree that it's getting worse. It's the media phenomenon. It's the same thing as people thinking that crime is worse than it was back in the 60's or that there are more pedophiles than back then. Not true. It's just more widely reported than before.

    Not to mention the fact that the mediums being used in these bullying attacks is now a lot of the times social media itself, so it's out there before it's even out there.

    What these kids did is absolutely abhorent. But you honestly think they deserve the death penalty? SERIOUSLY?
    :roll:

    I agree with the first 2 paragraphs, but again, I am intelligent enough not to be swayed (hypnotized) by the media (who in my opinion, along with Corporate America, is destroying this country). I don't care what it was like in the 1960s; I am looking at what it is like now. If you knowingly acknowledge that what these pieces of garbage did is abhorrent, then what do you suggest?

    Like I said, they played a role in a kid ending his own life. Why do they get to enjoy life? Fuck them.
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    Paul David wrote:
    because it's ludicrous to accuse them of knowing the consequences of these actions, like murdering someone. believe me, I'm not taking this lightly. look at the old bullying thread, you'll see how this affects me, but my GOD MAN, to believe they should die because of this???



    Like an out of work physician, I have no more patience.
  • whygohome wrote:
    Paul David wrote:
    because it's ludicrous to accuse them of knowing the consequences of these actions, like murdering someone. believe me, I'm not taking this lightly. look at the old bullying thread, you'll see how this affects me, but my GOD MAN, to believe they should die because of this???



    Like an out of work physician, I have no more patience.

    boooo-urns.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • I suggest something that is, oh, I don't know, on par with the crime. Death is quite simply not it.
    whygohome wrote:
    I agree with the first 2 paragraphs, but again, I am intelligent enough not to be swayed (hypnotized) by the media (who in my opinion, along with Corporate America, is destroying this country). I don't care what it was like in the 1960s; I am looking at what it is like now. If you knowingly acknowledge that what these pieces of garbage did is abhorrent, then what do you suggest?

    Like I said, they played a role in a kid ending his own life. Why do they get to enjoy life? Fuck them.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    whygohome wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    His roommate and classmate should get a bullet in the head
    then where would we be?

    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.

    Is it possibe that he committed suicide because of other issues other than his sexual act being broadcasted over the internet? If so should these two as you say....deserve death.

    Either way they won't be put to death for this crime no matter how badly you wish for this occur.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.[/quote]

    Is it possibe that he committed suicide because of other issues other than his sexual act being broadcasted over the internet? If so should these two as you say....deserve death.

    Either way they won't be put to death for this crime no matter how badly you wish for this occur.

    Peace[/quote]

    We have no idea if he had other issues, but whether we want to admit it or not, these people should be held responsible.

    We would all think differently if the victim was our friend or family member. Let's get down off of our moral pedestals.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    whygohome wrote:
    I can't say where we will be as a whole, but with respect to this particular situation involving 3 people, not too mention the victim's family whose lives are forever changed, we would have two murderers put to death - two individuals who, in my opinion, deserve death.

    Is it possibe that he committed suicide because of other issues other than his sexual act being broadcasted over the internet? If so should these two as you say....deserve death.

    Either way they won't be put to death for this crime no matter how badly you wish for this occur.

    Peace[/quote]
    We have no idea if he had other issues, but whether we want to admit it or not, these people should be held responsible.

    We would all think differently if the victim was our friend or family member. Let's get down off of our moral pedestals.

    They will be held responsible for the charges that will be brought against them. I know one thing it won't be a charge of murder.

    Absolutely wrong, even if this was my only daughter I would not want or thought that they deserved death and I feel as strongly unlike you that killing them is NOT warranted. That's the moral ground I stand on firmly.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • g under p wrote:
    They will be held responsible for the charges that will be brought against them. I know one thing it won't be a charge of murder.

    Absolutely wrong, even if this was my only daughter I would not want or thought that they deserved death and I feel as strongly unlike you that killing them is NOT warranted. That's the moral ground I stand on firmly.

    Peace

    exactly.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
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