I can see what Aerial is getting at. There are some people on here that have an easier time criticizing our own americans including soldiers then they do any other country.
I feel what your saying but if we don't criticize ourselves, how do we have the right to criticize anyone else?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
I can see what Aerial is getting at. There are some people on here that have an easier time criticizing our own americans including soldiers then they do any other country.
I feel what your saying but if we don't criticize ourselves, how do we have the right to criticize anyone else?
Criticism is fine but some on here are ready to convict this guy just because he is an American solider.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
I can see what Aerial is getting at. There are some people on here that have an easier time criticizing our own americans including soldiers then they do any other country.
I feel what your saying but if we don't criticize ourselves, how do we have the right to criticize anyone else?
Criticism is fine but some on here are ready to convict this guy just because he is an American solider.
I am not defending him….he deserves his day in court though.....
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
judging by the footage on the news when we see people over there dragging our dead solders through the streets or what the radicals have done to american civilians in their country...are we the only country that "plays by the rules" ??? I'm not saying that these mens alleged actions are ok but we really don't know the circumstances or the whole truth of the matter, these men could be good men and good solders that have tolerated a large amount of violence from the people they're there to help..maybe it's hard to tell who the enemy is when one is in a war area..what that old saying about walking a mile in another mans shoes ? lets give our solders a chance to tell their side of the story,lets listen to what they have to say before you guys too judgmental on them.
US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies'
Soldiers face charges over secret 'kill team' which allegedly murdered at random and collected fingers as trophies of war
* Chris McGreal in Washington
* The Guardian, Thursday 9 September 2010
Twelve American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.
Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering three Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven others are accused of covering up the killings and assaulting a recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians.
In one of the most serious accusations of war crimes to emerge from the Afghan conflict, the killings are alleged to have been carried out by members of a Stryker infantry brigade based in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan.
According to investigators and legal documents, discussion of killing Afghan civilians began after the arrival of Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs at forward operating base Ramrod last November. Other soldiers told the army's criminal investigation command that Gibbs boasted of the things he got away with while serving in Iraq and said how easy it would be to "toss a grenade at someone and kill them".
One soldier said he believed Gibbs was "feeling out the platoon".
Investigators said Gibbs, 25, hatched a plan with another soldier, Jeremy Morlock, 22, and other members of the unit to form a "kill team". While on patrol over the following months they allegedly killed at least three Afghan civilians. According to the charge sheet, the first target was Gul Mudin, who was killed "by means of throwing a fragmentary grenade at him and shooting him with a rifle", when the patrol entered the village of La Mohammed Kalay in January.
Morlock and another soldier, Andrew Holmes, were on guard at the edge of a poppy field when Mudin emerged and stopped on the other side of a wall from the soldiers. Gibbs allegedly handed Morlock a grenade who armed it and dropped it over the wall next to the Afghan and dived for cover. Holmes, 19, then allegedly fired over the wall.
Later in the day, Morlock is alleged to have told Holmes that the killing was for fun and threatened him if he told anyone.
The second victim, Marach Agha, was shot and killed the following month. Gibbs is alleged to have shot him and placed a Kalashnikov next to the body to justify the killing. In May Mullah Adadhdad was killed after being shot and attacked with a grenade.
The Army Times reported that a least one of the soldiers collected the fingers of the victims as souvenirs and that some of them posed for photographs with the bodies.
Five soldiers – Gibbs, Morlock, Holmes, Michael Wagnon and Adam Winfield – are accused of murder and aggravated assault among other charges. All of the soldiers have denied the charges. They face the death penalty or life in prison if convicted.
The killings came to light in May after the army began investigating a brutal assault on a soldier who told superiors that members of his unit were smoking hashish. The Army Times reported that members of the unit regularly smoked the drug on duty and sometimes stole it from civilians.
The soldier, who was straight out of basic training and has not been named, said he witnessed the smoking of hashish and drinking of smuggled alcohol but initially did not report it out of loyalty to his comrades. But when he returned from an assignment at an army headquarters and discovered soldiers using the shipping container in which he was billeted to smoke hashish he reported it.
Two days later members of his platoon, including Gibbs and Morlock, accused him of "snitching", gave him a beating and told him to keep his mouth shut. The soldier reported the beating and threats to his officers and then told investigators what he knew of the "kill team".
Following the arrest of the original five accused in June, seven other soldiers were charged last month with attempting to cover up the killings and violent assault on the soldier who reported the smoking of hashish. The charges will be considered by a military grand jury later this month which will decide if there is enough evidence for a court martial. Army investigators say Morlock has admitted his involvement in the killings and given details about the role of others including Gibbs. But his lawyer, Michael Waddington, is seeking to have that confession suppressed because he says his client was interviewed while under the influence of prescription drugs taken for battlefield injuries and that he was also suffering from traumatic brain injury.
"Our position is that his statements were incoherent, and taken while he was under a cocktail of drugs that shouldn't have been mixed," Waddington told the Seattle Times.
British servicemen suspected of murdering Iraqi civilians
Exclusive: Soldiers and airmen are suspected of killing significant number of civilians, but have not been put on trial
* Ian Cobain
* guardian.co.uk, Sunday 12 September 2010
British soldiers and airmen are suspected of being responsible for the murder and manslaughter of a number of Iraqi civilians in addition to the high-profile case of Baha Mousa, defence officials have admitted.
The victims include a man who was allegedly kicked to death on board an RAF helicopter, another who was shot by a soldier of the Black Watch after being involved in a traffic incident, and a 19-year-old who drowned after allegedly being pushed into a river by soldiers serving with the Royal Engineers.
Military police recommended that some of the alleged killers be put on trial for murder and manslaughter, but military prosecutors declined to do so after concluding that there was no realistic prospect of convictions...
An army investigation into a number of cases – including that of Mousa, who was tortured to death by British troops – conceded in 2008 that they were a cause for "professional humility", but concluded that there was nothing endemic about the mistreatment.
In July, however, after reviewing evidence submitted by lawyers representing 102 survivors of British military detention facilities, the high court ruled: "There is an arguable case that the alleged ill-treatment was systemic, and not just at the whim of individual soldiers." The court also cast doubt on the ability of military police to conduct independent investigations.
The abuse documented by a team of lawyers led by Birmingham solicitor Phil Shiner includes 59 allegations of detainees being hooded, 11 of electric shocks, 122 of sound deprivation through the use of ear muffs, 52 of sleep deprivation, 131 of sight deprivation using blackened goggles, 39 of enforced nakedness and 18 allegations that detainees were kept awake by pornographic DVDs played on laptops....
judging by the footage on the news when we see people over there dragging our dead solders through the streets or what the radicals have done to american civilians in their country...are we the only country that "plays by the rules" ??? I'm not saying that these mens alleged actions are ok but we really don't know the circumstances or the whole truth of the matter, these men could be good men and good solders that have tolerated a large amount of violence from the people they're there to help..maybe it's hard to tell who the enemy is when one is in a war area..what that old saying about walking a mile in another mans shoes ? lets give our solders a chance to tell their side of the story,lets listen to what they have to say before you guys too judgmental on them.
Godfather.
do you even know what an occupation is? I know how little the term is used by American media, let alone Fox News, but it seems like you haven't the slightest clue.
judging by the footage on the news when we see people over there dragging our dead solders through the streets or what the radicals have done to american civilians in their country...are we the only country that "plays by the rules" ??? I'm not saying that these mens alleged actions are ok but we really don't know the circumstances or the whole truth of the matter, these men could be good men and good solders that have tolerated a large amount of violence from the people they're there to help..maybe it's hard to tell who the enemy is when one is in a war area..what that old saying about walking a mile in another mans shoes ? lets give our solders a chance to tell their side of the story,lets listen to what they have to say before you guys too judgmental on them.
Godfather.
I see what you are saying. War is hell and it must do awful things to the mind. Maybe these guys went a little off the deep end from what they have been through and it might be unfair to criticize these guys from our living rooms, especially before they have been given their due process. Due process is an American hallmark. However, we cannot ask anone else to play by the rules if we don't. It is as simple as that. It cannot be an eye for an eye. We must try as hard as possible to always do the right thing, even if it seems unfair, or we are no better.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
War is hell and it must do awful things to the mind. Maybe these guys went a little off the deep end from what they have been through and it might be unfair to criticize these guys from our living rooms, especially before they have been given their due process. Due process is an American hallmark. However, we cannot ask anone else to play by the rules if we don't. It is as simple as that. It cannot be an eye for an eye. We must try as hard as possible to always do the right thing, even if it seems unfair, or we are no better.
And maybe those on the receiving end of America's wars can also be excused for going off the deep end too? Like those people who dragged the dead bodies of Americans through the streets, for example.
War is hell and it must do awful things to the mind. Maybe these guys went a little off the deep end from what they have been through and it might be unfair to criticize these guys from our living rooms, especially before they have been given their due process. Due process is an American hallmark. However, we cannot ask anone else to play by the rules if we don't. It is as simple as that. It cannot be an eye for an eye. We must try as hard as possible to always do the right thing, even if it seems unfair, or we are no better.
And maybe those on the receiving end of America's wars can also be excused for going off the deep end too? Like those people who dragged the dead bodies of Americans through the streets, for example.
Just to make myself clear I was not excusing anybody for anything.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
are we the only country that "plays by the rules" ???
Please explain how bombing and occupying Afghanistan and then invading and occupying Iraq constitute playing by the rules? The Iraq war was illegal under international law. just as funding Latin American death squads from the money made by selling weapons to Iran was illegal, as was instigating the overthrow of the democractically elected Chilean government on 9/11. The bombing of Cambodia was also illegal which is why the crook in charge at the time tried to cover it up. Also, selling arms to Israel which it uses to maintain an occupation and slaughter civilians is illegal too.
The U.S government plays by it's own rules. Period. Which is why you qualify as a rogue state.
are we the only country that "plays by the rules" ???
Please explain how bombing and occupying Afghanistan and then invading and occupying Iraq constitute playing by the rules? The Iraq war was illegal under international law. just as funding Latin American death squads from the money made by selling weapons to Iran was illegal, as was instigating the overthrow of the democractically elected Chilean government on 9/11. The bombing of Cambodia was also illegal which is why the crook in charge at the time tried to cover it up. Also, selling arms to Israel which it uses to maintain an occupation and slaughter civilians is illegal too.
The U.S government plays by it's own rules. Period. Which is why you qualify as a rogue state.
all you really know is what you read on the news and if you claim to know more than that you're just blowing hot air, but your comment was good " The U.S government plays by it's own rules. Period" maybe if we played by everyone Else's rules there would be stoning deaths for adultery or public exaction for white collar crimes
or prison sentences or death penalty's for speaking out against the government public or private....
maybe if we played by everyone Else's rules there would be stoning deaths for adultery or public exaction for white collar crimes or prison sentences or death penalty's for speaking out against the government public or private....
all you really know is what you read on the news and if you claim to know more than that you're just blowing hot air
So anyone who aquires knowledge from books, or by reading source material is just blowing hot-air when they present a fact or opinion?
""when it comes to national security yes....the public will never get the whole truth..sad but true.""
Godfather.
maybe if we played by everyone Else's rules there would be stoning deaths for adultery or public exaction for white collar crimes or prison sentences or death penalty's for speaking out against the government public or private....
are we the only country that "plays by the rules" ???
Please explain how bombing and occupying Afghanistan and then invading and occupying Iraq constitute playing by the rules? The Iraq war was illegal under international law. just as funding Latin American death squads from the money made by selling weapons to Iran was illegal, as was instigating the overthrow of the democractically elected Chilean government on 9/11. The bombing of Cambodia was also illegal which is why the crook in charge at the time tried to cover it up. Also, selling arms to Israel which it uses to maintain an occupation and slaughter civilians is illegal too.
The U.S government plays by it's own rules. Period. Which is why you qualify as a rogue state.
no rogue states do what they want and are a threat. were just spreading the democracy and freedom.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
are we the only country that "plays by the rules" ???
Please explain how bombing and occupying Afghanistan and then invading and occupying Iraq constitute playing by the rules? The Iraq war was illegal under international law. just as funding Latin American death squads from the money made by selling weapons to Iran was illegal, as was instigating the overthrow of the democractically elected Chilean government on 9/11. The bombing of Cambodia was also illegal which is why the crook in charge at the time tried to cover it up. Also, selling arms to Israel which it uses to maintain an occupation and slaughter civilians is illegal too.
The U.S government plays by it's own rules. Period. Which is why you qualify as a rogue state.
no rogue states do what they want and are a threat. were just spreading the democracy and freedom.
whenever they say civilian casualties were "accidents" or "collateral damage" its not entirely true. going into war you can guarantee civilians will be killed, as such "accident" is misleading.
same with stories like this. not only should the individuals involved be punished, but justice need be sought at the highest level, those that led us into this fucked up war.
Comments
I feel what your saying but if we don't criticize ourselves, how do we have the right to criticize anyone else?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
or defend him because he is one.
support the troops!!!
Agreed.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Godfather.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/se ... ns-fingers
US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies'
Soldiers face charges over secret 'kill team' which allegedly murdered at random and collected fingers as trophies of war
* Chris McGreal in Washington
* The Guardian, Thursday 9 September 2010
Twelve American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.
Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering three Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven others are accused of covering up the killings and assaulting a recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians.
In one of the most serious accusations of war crimes to emerge from the Afghan conflict, the killings are alleged to have been carried out by members of a Stryker infantry brigade based in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan.
According to investigators and legal documents, discussion of killing Afghan civilians began after the arrival of Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs at forward operating base Ramrod last November. Other soldiers told the army's criminal investigation command that Gibbs boasted of the things he got away with while serving in Iraq and said how easy it would be to "toss a grenade at someone and kill them".
One soldier said he believed Gibbs was "feeling out the platoon".
Investigators said Gibbs, 25, hatched a plan with another soldier, Jeremy Morlock, 22, and other members of the unit to form a "kill team". While on patrol over the following months they allegedly killed at least three Afghan civilians. According to the charge sheet, the first target was Gul Mudin, who was killed "by means of throwing a fragmentary grenade at him and shooting him with a rifle", when the patrol entered the village of La Mohammed Kalay in January.
Morlock and another soldier, Andrew Holmes, were on guard at the edge of a poppy field when Mudin emerged and stopped on the other side of a wall from the soldiers. Gibbs allegedly handed Morlock a grenade who armed it and dropped it over the wall next to the Afghan and dived for cover. Holmes, 19, then allegedly fired over the wall.
Later in the day, Morlock is alleged to have told Holmes that the killing was for fun and threatened him if he told anyone.
The second victim, Marach Agha, was shot and killed the following month. Gibbs is alleged to have shot him and placed a Kalashnikov next to the body to justify the killing. In May Mullah Adadhdad was killed after being shot and attacked with a grenade.
The Army Times reported that a least one of the soldiers collected the fingers of the victims as souvenirs and that some of them posed for photographs with the bodies.
Five soldiers – Gibbs, Morlock, Holmes, Michael Wagnon and Adam Winfield – are accused of murder and aggravated assault among other charges. All of the soldiers have denied the charges. They face the death penalty or life in prison if convicted.
The killings came to light in May after the army began investigating a brutal assault on a soldier who told superiors that members of his unit were smoking hashish. The Army Times reported that members of the unit regularly smoked the drug on duty and sometimes stole it from civilians.
The soldier, who was straight out of basic training and has not been named, said he witnessed the smoking of hashish and drinking of smuggled alcohol but initially did not report it out of loyalty to his comrades. But when he returned from an assignment at an army headquarters and discovered soldiers using the shipping container in which he was billeted to smoke hashish he reported it.
Two days later members of his platoon, including Gibbs and Morlock, accused him of "snitching", gave him a beating and told him to keep his mouth shut. The soldier reported the beating and threats to his officers and then told investigators what he knew of the "kill team".
Following the arrest of the original five accused in June, seven other soldiers were charged last month with attempting to cover up the killings and violent assault on the soldier who reported the smoking of hashish. The charges will be considered by a military grand jury later this month which will decide if there is enough evidence for a court martial. Army investigators say Morlock has admitted his involvement in the killings and given details about the role of others including Gibbs. But his lawyer, Michael Waddington, is seeking to have that confession suppressed because he says his client was interviewed while under the influence of prescription drugs taken for battlefield injuries and that he was also suffering from traumatic brain injury.
"Our position is that his statements were incoherent, and taken while he was under a cocktail of drugs that shouldn't have been mixed," Waddington told the Seattle Times.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/1 ... n-suspects
British servicemen suspected of murdering Iraqi civilians
Exclusive: Soldiers and airmen are suspected of killing significant number of civilians, but have not been put on trial
* Ian Cobain
* guardian.co.uk, Sunday 12 September 2010
British soldiers and airmen are suspected of being responsible for the murder and manslaughter of a number of Iraqi civilians in addition to the high-profile case of Baha Mousa, defence officials have admitted.
The victims include a man who was allegedly kicked to death on board an RAF helicopter, another who was shot by a soldier of the Black Watch after being involved in a traffic incident, and a 19-year-old who drowned after allegedly being pushed into a river by soldiers serving with the Royal Engineers.
Military police recommended that some of the alleged killers be put on trial for murder and manslaughter, but military prosecutors declined to do so after concluding that there was no realistic prospect of convictions...
An army investigation into a number of cases – including that of Mousa, who was tortured to death by British troops – conceded in 2008 that they were a cause for "professional humility", but concluded that there was nothing endemic about the mistreatment.
In July, however, after reviewing evidence submitted by lawyers representing 102 survivors of British military detention facilities, the high court ruled: "There is an arguable case that the alleged ill-treatment was systemic, and not just at the whim of individual soldiers." The court also cast doubt on the ability of military police to conduct independent investigations.
The abuse documented by a team of lawyers led by Birmingham solicitor Phil Shiner includes 59 allegations of detainees being hooded, 11 of electric shocks, 122 of sound deprivation through the use of ear muffs, 52 of sleep deprivation, 131 of sight deprivation using blackened goggles, 39 of enforced nakedness and 18 allegations that detainees were kept awake by pornographic DVDs played on laptops....
well sport is just war in microcosm... maybe these guys were waiting for the final hooter to go. unfortunately for them it just has.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I see what you are saying. War is hell and it must do awful things to the mind. Maybe these guys went a little off the deep end from what they have been through and it might be unfair to criticize these guys from our living rooms, especially before they have been given their due process. Due process is an American hallmark. However, we cannot ask anone else to play by the rules if we don't. It is as simple as that. It cannot be an eye for an eye. We must try as hard as possible to always do the right thing, even if it seems unfair, or we are no better.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
And maybe those on the receiving end of America's wars can also be excused for going off the deep end too? Like those people who dragged the dead bodies of Americans through the streets, for example.
Just to make myself clear I was not excusing anybody for anything.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Please explain how bombing and occupying Afghanistan and then invading and occupying Iraq constitute playing by the rules? The Iraq war was illegal under international law. just as funding Latin American death squads from the money made by selling weapons to Iran was illegal, as was instigating the overthrow of the democractically elected Chilean government on 9/11. The bombing of Cambodia was also illegal which is why the crook in charge at the time tried to cover it up. Also, selling arms to Israel which it uses to maintain an occupation and slaughter civilians is illegal too.
The U.S government plays by it's own rules. Period. Which is why you qualify as a rogue state.
all you really know is what you read on the news and if you claim to know more than that you're just blowing hot air, but your comment was good " The U.S government plays by it's own rules. Period" maybe if we played by everyone Else's rules there would be stoning deaths for adultery or public exaction for white collar crimes
or prison sentences or death penalty's for speaking out against the government public or private....
Godfather.
Godfather.
So anyone who aquires knowledge from books, or by reading source material is just blowing hot-air when they present a fact or opinion?
Why? Is this what happens in Luxembourg?
dunno ?
Godfather.
no rogue states do what they want and are a threat. were just spreading the democracy and freedom.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
YEEEESSSSS !!!!!!!
Godfather.
same with stories like this. not only should the individuals involved be punished, but justice need be sought at the highest level, those that led us into this fucked up war.